The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

[RoadDebris]

You just said,"I chose to accept"that is music to my ears, that is all I wanted to hear, that you did indeed have a choice and by an act of your will you made that choice.l

Well, I did chose to accept Him, after He raised me from spiritual death. I'm not the cause of my own salvation. Neither are you.

 

[reba]

Man can choose to worship any god he wants..

The egyptian gods
the sun
the moon
ETC
we can dance around their altars have fun parties... make sacrifices pay tribute

Not one of those gods chose man.

 

[Sam21]

I choose the best for my self! I chose to serve God


[FONT=&quot]Or thank you Lord for saving me a sinner

[FONT=&quot]In regards to this topic i have been where you are Sam, Spent about 30 years there. I understand it is hard to see how humbling it is to realize who we are and who He is. I fail at putting it to words. I know my heart . I see things today the opposite of what i ever thought i would.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Having been on both sides, [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]I believe we are saved which ever side of this topic we are on.[/FONT][/FONT]

I don't quite understand what you mean(where you are?), I was dealth with by the Holy Spirit and I accepted Jesus as my Saviour and experienced the born again experience. Are we on a different page? I am arguing against the idea that Jesus only died for certain persons rather than for the whole world as described in John 3:16.

 

[Sam21]

Well, I did chose to accept Him, after He raised me from spiritual death. I'm not the cause of my own salvation. Neither are you.

IF, you are really saved, then FIRST, the Spirit of God convicted you that you were a lost sinner and on your way to hell and needed to accept Jesus as your Saviour in order to be saved. IF you then accepted Jesus as Saviour THEN you were given eternal life in Christ.

 

[reba]

I don't quite understand what you mean(where you are?), I was dealth with by the Holy Spirit and I accepted Jesus as my Saviour and experienced the born again experience. Are we on a different page?

Same page on the above quote.


Never mind the rest of my post, Sam i cant get thoughts from my head/heart to paper very well.

 

[RoadDebris]

IF, you are really saved, then FIRST, the Spirit of God convicted you that you were a lost sinner and on your way to hell and needed to accept Jesus as your Saviour in order to be saved. IF you then accepted Jesus as Saviour THEN you were given eternal life in Christ.

You claim salvation is subject to the desire of man, but God says that is not so.

It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
- Rom. 9:16

You claim salvation is subject to man's actions, but God says that is not so.

not by works, so that no one can boast.
- Eph. 2:9

 

[Sam21]

Same page on the above quote.


Never mind the rest of my post, Sam i cant get thoughts from my head/heart to paper very well.

Hey,you made your point fine, you were convicted by the Holy Spirit and accepted Jesus as Saviour, the same thing that happened to me, all of it is the work of God and His kindness,however God will not force us, we have to chose to accept Christ. God reaches out a hand to us,however we have to grasp that Hand. I appreciate your humble friendly attitude(rare these days).

 

[RoadDebris]

Grasping is an action. The Holy Spirit says we don't cause our own salvation by our actions (see Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

[Eventide]

Let's look at the text, shall we?

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth - 2 Thes. 2:13

Who do we thank, ourselves or God?

The LORD of course..

Why do we give thanks, because we chose God or He chose us?

Because He chose us to SALVATION through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..

When did this choosing take place, on the day we confessed Him as Lord or from the beginning?

God has from the beginning made this choice, because He knows the end of the beginning.. we do not.. although we were not IN CHRIST until AFTER we believed the truth..

OK, I've answered your questions.. now.. are these conditions for God choosing us or not ?

 

[Eventide]

Straw man. You're aware that's an intellectually dishonest tack, right?

And I've told you that we all can't be as honest as you Calvinists.. right..?

I mean, since you're condemning such things I would think you would shy away from them yourself. Doesn't lend much credit to you theology (IMO).

Well it's nice to see you finally moving away from the unbiblical doctrine of unconditional election..

There's a reason the elect are chosen, one that's been pointed out to you from scripture several times. The reason is not the merit of the elect, however.

Has anyone argued that it is based upon OUR MERIT... or is this another one of your massive strawmen..?

That's what the Bible teaches. The Holy Spirit, through Paul, says we do nothing whatsoever to cause our salvation. You don't like that. I get it. But that doesn't change the fact that the Bible says the saved are chosen, including you. It's sad that you just can't give God the glory but insist on taking some of it for yourself.

You're the king of strawmen and you're the one who is intellectually dishonest here.. and I know that this is typically what Calvinists do... so it's no surprise.. as if I'm taking the glory for myself.. but then again, it's all a Calvinist can do.. is build strawmen and be dishonest in their debate tactics..

The bible says that I must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved... Paul preached REPENTANCE toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.. Paul writes that God has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth... obvious conditions..

But the Calvinist can't ever admit that... because then they'd be wrong about buying into unconditional election and of course we all know that's it's impossible for a Calvinist to be wrong.. why else would they refust to admit the simple truth of the living and powerful word of God over a dead man named John Calvin.. ?

 

[Eventide]

Why did you believe? Was it because of your wisdom? You were wise enough to discern the truth of the matter but others who heard the same Gospel were not? Was it because of your self-control? You willed yourself to faith while others couldn't muster the effort needed? Tell us please. Why did you accept Jesus?

The usual reasons outlined in the word of God... things like conviction of sin, fear of going to hell.. and most importantly to me... because Never a Man spake like this Man... I could see that the gospel was not the word of men (like John Calvin for example) but rather the word of God..

How about you.. did you just wake up one day and have Christ in you ?

Isn't that what unconditional election means..?

Why don't you tell me your view and thoughts on what unconditional election means... just to be sure that we're on the same page here.

 

[Eventide]

An interesting observation. The predestined elect idea is based on egotism(the Creator made ME BETTER than you)carried to a degree that surpasses even the pride of satan(even satan COULD fall),and yet the method these folks use to defend their position is to attack as egotistic the people who made a choice to accept Christ..

Amazing isn't it Sam...

Calvinists MOCK other Christians because THEY BELIEVED on the Lord Jesus Christ.. if that's not from the pit of hell then what is.. ?

 

[reba]

unconditional

Speaks to the state of the sinner. God saves sinners regardless of there state of sin. From the creepiest drug dealer to the 'cold' guy on the pew at church. As God says in Romans 3 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. I did not have to met a standard to be saved. He saved me despite my condition.

That is my POV I dont know how that fits into others thoughts.

 

[Eventide]

unconditional

Speaks to the state of the sinner. God saves sinners regardless of there state of sin. From the creepiest drug dealer to the 'cold' guy on the pew at church. As God says in Romans 3 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. I did not have to met a standard to be saved. He saved me despite my condition.

That is my POV I dont know how that fits into others thoughts.

So regardless of the fact that the bible says that 'God hath chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth'.. you still believe that there are no conditions for God saving you... like for example.. believng the truth..? ?

So while all others need to have repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.. good ol Reba doesn't need that..

S P E C I A L

 

[RoadDebris]

God has from the beginning made this choice, because He knows the end of the beginning.. we do not.. although we were not IN CHRIST until AFTER we believed the truth..

OK, I've answered your questions.. now.. are these conditions for God choosing us or not ?

He knows the end. He's predestined it, according to the Bible. And the faith through which we are saved is a gift from God, not the product of our choice.

God does not choose us based on things we do or don't do.

 

[Eventide]

He knows the end. He's predestined it, according to the Bible. And the faith through which we are saved is a gift from God, not the product of our choice.

God does not choose us based on things we do or don't do.

So then according to you, God does not choose us to salvation based upon believing the truth ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

So then according to you, God does not choose us to salvation based upon believing the truth ?

No He does not, believing the Truth is one of the end results in God having chosen one to Salvation..2 Thess 2:


13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Salvation here is not the deliverance from the penalty of sin, but experiential Salvation, a subjective experience, which comes to the elect by a Sovereign Work of the Holy Spirit and from that believing of the Truth..

All for whom Christ died will experience that work in order for them to believe the Truth..

Its merely an answer to Jesus Prayer Jn 17:

17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.



The Work of the Holy Spirit in 2 Thess 2 13 is the result of this Prayer.

God does not choose people because of anything they do, thats contrary to Grace. The choice is made before one is born and does good or evil that the purpose according to election might stand,not of works but of Him that calleth Rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

This is the same calling Paul is speaking of in regards to the Thessalonians after describing what happened to them in vs 13, He writes in vs 14

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

Now I know you cannot receive this, but you will be held accountable for it..

 

[taromina2003]

I am reminded of what Hitler said,"if you are going to tell a lie then tell a really big lie,people are more likely to believe a really big lie than a small one". The lie that God hand picked certain persons to be saved and others to be lost before they were even born flies in the face of EVERYTHING taught in the bible from cover to cover, it is so obviously false that it is ridiculous. The actual absurdity that any christian with biblical knowledge would believe such a thing makes it difficult to comprehend...you feel like throwing up your hands and screaming, READ THE BIBLE! The entire story of the bible is that God made man with the ability to recognize right from wrong and the ability to chose and that God holds man accountable for the choice he makes..duh,duh, and double duh.

What I have been taught is the "elect" are the ones who will be delivered up to the anti-christ during his rule and allow the Holy Spirit to speak through them, they apparently were the ones who stood up to satan during the first earth age.

 

[reba]

So regardless of the fact that the bible says that 'God hath chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth'.. you still believe that there are no conditions for God saving you... like for example.. believng the truth..? ?

So while all others need to have repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.. good ol Reba doesn't need that..

S P E C I A L

I can do nothing to save myself i am a sinner.

good ol reba needs a Saviour.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Wouldn't i be special if i could save myself? What man seeks God?

 

[reba]

So regardless of the fact that the bible says that 'God hath chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth'.

. It is not my spirit it is HIS Spirit, and He is Truth.

you still believe that there are no conditions for God saving you... like for example.. believng the truth..? ?

How does the sinner know Truth again with Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


As stated before

unconditional

Speaks to the state of the sinner. God saves sinners regardless of there state of sin. From the creepiest drug dealer to the 'cold' guy on the pew at church. As God says in Romans 3 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. I did not have to met a standard to be saved. He saved me despite my condition

.

We sinners are never good enough and regardless of sinful nature, regardless of the sinful condition , He saves!