The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

[Hitch]

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION has been shown to wrong over and over again.. in case you missed that part..

nope wrong again

Why, because as you agree.. ALL election is in CHRIST.. there's one condition.. and also because we're not the ELECT, Christ is the ELECT, the Chosen ONE in whom He delights.. there's another reason.. and of course God elected (chose) us through BELIEVING the TRUTH and SANCTIFICATION of the SPIRIT.. another painfully obvious CONDITION..

Its a silly as it is unscriptural the think men can believe while dead in sin, and the scriptures dont agree with your oft repeated 'Christ is the elect' as the church is so referred;12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
So you're off on both counts, as usual

Like I said before.. that's the bottom line isn't it.. God's election is one or the other.. the bible certainly indicates that it IS CONDITIONAL.. Calvinists insist that IT (election) is UNCONDITIONAL..

It is no more unconditional than any other aspect of God's unmerited favor, grace.

Now I'm certain that this won't matter, and you'll most likely come back with your strawman again telling me that I agree with John Calvin.. and that's fine Hitch.. it's good for a laugh and it's good to lighten it up a bit.

Well at least you quit lying saying I hadnt answered. And its still true, you agree with Calvin that 'He chooses us in Christ' .

Now since this is nothing but straw you should be able to produce ,, at least one word, saying Calvin or any Reformers teaches that were are anything other than 'chosen by God in Christ.'

Oh I get it ,thats doesnt matter now since you tripped over so badly and cant find a way around. Hey maybe some one will pretend you didnt make 2/3 of the posts you made here, worth a shot. LOL

We haven't really talked about IRESISTABLE GRACE yet..

Well it doesnt take a bright bulb to see you are in need of a new target. Try not to talk yourself into a corner so soon this time.

 

[Hitch]

Unconditional Election makes no sense when we see that the Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect of God.. of course that's conditional, and the entire OT points to HIM and Him alone.. for in the volume of the book it is written of Me says the LORD..

See, that IS the myth.. that condemned men are the elect.. they're not.. we're ALL condemned in Adam.. and ALL justified freely IN CHRIST..

Why, because Christ alone is the elect of God, the Chosen One in whom He delights.

Well you'll never be able to quote any Reformer saying election is anywhere but in Christ, but keep pretending.

 

[Eventide]

Well you'll never be able to quote any Reformer saying election is anywhere but in Christ, but keep pretending.

Ok, I will.. LOL.. you are funny Hitch..

 

[Hitch]

Ok, I will.. LOL.. you are funny Hitch..

Originally Posted by Hitch
Well you'll never be able to quote any Reformer saying election is anywhere but in Christ, but keep pretending.

I wont be holding my breath.

 

[Eventide]

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION has been shown to wrong over and over again.. in case you missed that part..

nope wrong again

Hitch, here's your BIG chance.. show all of us how that God elects (chooses) without ANY conditions at all.. ie, unconditional.

And if you don't mind, specifically with respect to the 'church of God'..

 

[Hitch]

Hitch, here's your BIG chance.. show all of us how that God elects (chooses) without ANY conditions at all.. ie, unconditional.

And if you don't mind, specifically with respect to the 'church of God'..

A white flag so soon? There is barely 100 posts here.

I dont believe you have the gumption , ask and ye shall receive;


"Chosen But Free?" by James Harrison

 

[Hitch]

I'll post only small excerpts from the article, anyone who has an interest in Calvinism, whether pro or con, will take the necessary time to peruse the linked article.

http://www.the-highway.com/free_Harrison.html



Geisler continues his misrepresentation in that same context when he asserts of Calvinists that they hold the following,

If free choices were not considered at all when God made the list of the elect, then irresistible grace on the unwilling follows. That is, man would have no say in his own salvation. Accordingly, the fact that all men do not choose to love, worship, and serve God will make no difference whatsoever to God. He will simply “double whammy” those He chooses with His irresistible power and force them into His kingdom against their wills (see chapter 5).9
​

Irresistible grace on the unwilling is a constant theme that runs throughout CBF and it is nothing more than a strawman. The reformed view is not that God forces people into the kingdom against their wills, but rather that God causes dead men to live. No one comes into the kingdom unwillingly. God so acts upon man that man becomes willing. The only people that come to Christ are those who want to. The reformed view is clear. If God did not do this work in the heart of man, that is, if He did not do what the Lord says through Ezekiel, “I will take from them their heart of stone, and will give them a heart of flesh”, they would never choose Christ, for they would be forever unwilling.



'God causes dead men to live'.

A clear point earlier driven home in Reba's posts and, well , you read Even's response.

 

[Eventide]

A white flag so soon? There is barely 100 posts here.

I suppose a Calvinist would assume surrender before they even present their case.. but no..

I dont believe you have the gumption , ask and ye shall receive;


"Chosen But Free?" by James Harrison

As I already was well aware.. the ONLY evidence which he uses to support Unconditional Election is Romans 9.. and here we have the context of national Israel (Rom 9-11) being used in an attempt to support individual and unconditional election of men.. regargless of the fact that the previus chapters in Romans already has condemned all men in Adam..

So is it safe to assume that Calvinists supprt UE from Romans 9 alone.. ?

What might some other portions of the word of God be which are used by Calvinists to support their view of UE ?

 

[Hitch]

I suppose a Calvinist would assume surrender before they even present their case.. but no..

LOL This is YOUR thread Even, remember?:toofunny

As I already was well aware..

LOL Play time again already? Why would you pretend to have read the linked article ? Thats dishonest even ,but consistent Im curious ,what other subjects to you pretend to be expert in having no personal knowledge of ?

the ONLY evidence which he uses to support Unconditional Election is Romans 9.. and here we have the context of national Israel (Rom 9-11) being used in an attempt to support individual and unconditional election of men.. regargless of the fact that the previus chapters in Romans already has condemned all men in Adam..

So is it safe to assume that Calvinists supprt UE from Romans 9 alone.. ?

What might some other portions of the word of God be which are used by Calvinists to support their view of UE ?

Ephesians

Afraid to read little fella?

Its only an article its not as though it were a big scary book.

 

[Eventide]

LOL This is YOUR thread Even, remember?:toofunny LOL Plat time again already? Why would you pretend to have read the linked article ? Thats dishonest even ,but consistent Ephesians

Afraid to read little fella?

Its only an article its not as though it were a big scary book.

All I did was a find command for 'elect' and it highlighted nicely everywhere that he spoke about it. The ONLY place where I saw him trying to support unconditional election from the scriptures was with respect to Rom 9. Feel free to post any other commentary by ANY Calvinist with respect to their scriptural support of UE.

You mention Ephesians, and where might you support unconditional election with Eph scripture ? Would you ref the scripture and then comment on how it supports UE ?

 

[Hitch]

All I did was a find command for 'elect' and it highlighted nicely everywhere that he spoke about it.

We already know you didnt read the article Even lol

The ONLY place where I saw him trying to support unconditional election from the scriptures was with respect to Rom 9. Feel free to post any other commentary by ANY Calvinist with respect to their scriptural support of UE.

Yawn still afraid to read a little article Even ?

You mention Ephesians, and where might you support unconditional election with Eph scripture ? Would you ref the scripture and then comment on how it supports UE ?

Render your point by point refutation of what I've already provided, should be easy for a scholar like yourself, and then will move on, now that you have officially stepped away from your own thread.:biglol

 

[Eventide]

We already know you didnt read the article Even lol Yawn still afraid to read a little article Even ? Render your point by point refutation of what I've already provided, should be easy for a scholar like yourself, and then will move on, now that you have officially stepped away from your own thread.:biglol

IT's easy to refute imo.. because Romans 9 isn't about individual election, its context is national Israel. That's all he used to support his view, period. Now, your opinion may be that this 'article' of his settles the matter, then that's fine, you're welcome.

You also mentioned Eph, what scriptural support is there in that book for UE..

Simple enough, right ?

So far we have Calvinism supporting Unconditional Election using Romans 9 as its evidence..

We have the bible supporting conditional election based upon believing the truth and sanctification of the Spirit..

That's basically what we have thus far.. unless you're going to show us the Eph verses supporting UE..

 

[Hitch]

IT's easy to refute imo..

OK So lets see it, take a paragraph or two and demolish them with your greater understanding, and soon you'll have answered point by point, As you said its easy

because Romans 9 isn't about individual election, its context is national Israel. That's all he used to support his view, period. Now, your opinion may be that this 'article' of his settles the matter, then that's fine, you're welcome.

You also mentioned Eph, what scriptural support is there in that book for UE..

Simple enough, right ?

So far we have Calvinism supporting Unconditional Election using Romans 9 as its evidence..

We have the bible supporting conditional election based upon believing the truth and sanctification of the Spirit..

That's basically what we have thus far.. unless you're going to show us the Eph verses supporting UE..

Can you do something that is easy in your own opinion ? We're waiting .

I know we'll only get more evasions but ethics demand the formality.


Come on Even, this is serious, you are obliged to protect the flock from marauders;

Re: The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

That's how I feel Sam.. and I first heard of Calvinism about 20 years ago and even then it seemed ridiculous to me.. although over time I have come to see Unconditional Election as one of the more subtle lies of Satan..​

 

[Eventide]

OK So lets see it, take a paragraph or two and demolish them with your greater understanding, and soon you'll have answered point by point, As you said its easy Can you do something that is easy in your own opinion ? We're waiting .

Demolish what.. the simple opinion that Romans 9 is the sole basis for the false doctrine of Unconditional Election..

Tell you what.. you rest in Romans 9 as the sole support for what you choose to believe about election, and I'll rest in the simple fact that God chooses every one upon the condition of believing the truth and sanctification of the Spirit.

Any others like to support UE with the scriptures.. it's evident that all we have thus far is the opinion that Romans 9 is the basis for the unconditional election of men who are already condemned.

 

[Hitch]

Demolish what.. the simple opinion that Romans 9 is the sole basis for the false doctrine of Unconditional Election..

Demolish the linked article point by point, it wont happen you're nothing but tepid air, and you cant do that crouching down hiding.

Tell you what.. you rest in Romans 9 as the sole support for what you choose to believe about election, and I'll rest in the simple fact that God chooses every one upon the condition of believing the truth and sanctification of the Spirit.

Any others like to support UE with the scriptures.. it's evident that all we have thus far is

2 Cant you fine even ONE point in that whole article you can handle? ,,You're joke.

the opinion that Romans 9 is the basis for the unconditional election of men who are already condemned.

If this is lies from satan ,as you claim he's really glad to have you on his side:toofunny.

This is pathetic I bring all the ammo and you're afraid to take a single shot.

 

[Eventide]

You're joke.

This is pathetic

Have a nice day Hitch.. as I mentioned, and knew, it's pointless to talk to you in any way.

Anyone else care to share something beside Roman 9 to support the view of Unconditional Election..? Or is Romans 9 the only point used to support the view ?

 

[Hitch]

Somebody play TAPS

 

[Cobb]

I obviously came in a little late into this debate, and only read the first page, and the last page of posts...didn't quite feel like going through all 696 posts. So if I repeat anything that has been said, forgive me.

You ask for more Biblical proof of Unconditional Election:

Deuteronomy 7:6-10 (the fact that God chose Israel as His people, shows election)
Psalm 65:4
Mark 13:20

Since I'm slowly working through Scripture dealing with this issue myself, I'll continue to post more verses as I go along.

However, I do think that as Christians we should be able to converse about these things without getting angry, or 'attacking' the other person...after all, we are dealing with God's word.

 

[Eventide]

I obviously came in a little late into this debate, and only read the first page, and the last page of posts...didn't quite feel like going through all 696 posts. So if I repeat anything that has been said, forgive me.

Not a problem..

You ask for more Biblical proof of Unconditional Election:

Deuteronomy 7:6-10 (the fact that God chose Israel as His people, shows election)

Election is certainly biblical.. the question is whether or not it's conditional or unconditiona..

I think that Israel is a perfect picture of CONDITIONAL election because we're told that not all Israel is Israel.. and there's a reason why.. because the just (justified in God's eyes) shall live BY FAITH.. imo it's the same condition as the NT which is BELIEVING the truth and sanctification of the SPIRIT.

See the point... just because you were an Israelite did NOT mean you were part of the Israel of God. A simple example might be the Pharisees.. certainly Israelites although not a part of the Israel of God.

Psalm 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

I'd say AMEN to that although I don't see where you're deriving Unconditional Election from it..

Mark 13:20

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Once again, where does this imply unconditional election... as if God's choosing random people for absolutely NO REASON AT ALL... that's what unconditional means right..

Let me ask you.. did you need to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel like the rest of us.. ? Do you believe that those are God imposed CONDITIONS ?

Since I'm slowly working through Scripture dealing with this issue myself, I'll continue to post more verses as I go along.

Great..

However, I do think that as Christians we should be able to converse about these things without getting angry, or 'attacking' the other person...after all, we are dealing with God's word.

Yes, it's obvious that some people can't handle it.

 

[Eventide]

Hard to be understood..?

Sometimes I wonder if ELECTION is one of the things which Peter says about Paul's writings.. when he talks about things which are difficult to understand..

ELECTION might fall into this category because at first glance.. it would seem obvious that WE are the elect of God.. although when you look deeper into these things we begin to see the reason WHY we (speaking of the church here) are referred to as the elect of God in scripture..

And it's because we are IN HIM... and HE IS the elect.. the chosen one of God.

Can you see that.. we're NOT the elect because God unconditionally chose US.. we are the elect because God conditionally chose us IN CHRIST.. by BELIEVING the truth and sanctification of the SPIRIT.

We know for a fact that EVERY LAST ONE OF US IN ADAM is under the same condemnation.. for there are none righteous, no not even one.. and Romans 5:18 makes it clear that by one man's offense, all are under condemnation.. and by one man's righteousness, all may be justified freely..

Furthermore.. even AFTER we are saved we can see that God is NOT choosing us because we're told to PUT OFF our OLD MAN who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ..

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me..

Does any Christian honestly read Gal 2:20 and think that THEY are the elect.. rather than CHRIST..?

If ye shall seek to save your life ye shall lose it, and if ye shall lose it for ME and the GOSPEL (conditions), ye shall save it..

The Lord Jesus Christ ALONE is the elect of God, the Chosen one in WHOM HE DELIGHTS.. and we are the elect IN HIM, because we are members of HIS BODY..