The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

[Eventide]

Doesn't look like there's a lot of scriptural support for unconditional election... and that's easy to understand because the scriptures teach us plainly that God chooses upon HIS established conditions.. and it's always been the same.. for the just shall live by faith.. and that's what the NT shows us as well, repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.. by believing the truth and sanctification of the Spirit.

 

[Hitch]

D

oes any Christian honestly read Gal 2:20 and think that THEY are the elect.. rather than CHRIST..?

If ye shall seek to save your life ye shall lose it, and if ye shall lose it for ME and the GOSPEL (conditions), ye shall save it..

The Lord Jesus Christ ALONE is the elect of God, the Chosen one in WHOM HE DELIGHTS.. and we are the elect IN HIM, because we are members of HIS BODY.

.LOL Its lame for you to pretend this has not been answered many times.

Your continuing to imply that Calvin teaches the opposite after receiving many requests to produce even a shred of evidence speaks for its self.

 

[Eventide]

Well, so far we have Romans 9 used to support unconditional election... no others..

Is the doctrine of unconditional election built upon Romans 9 and nothing more ?

 

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Hitch
Well you'll never be able to quote any Reformer saying election is anywhere but in Christ, but keep pretending.

Ok, I will.. LOL.. you are funny Hitch

Well? Found one?

 

[Prince]

Well, so far we have Romans 9 used to support unconditional election... no others..

Is the doctrine of unconditional election built upon Romans 9 and nothing more ?

Sup Eventide

I have not heard of the doctrine of "unconditional election" but I do believe there is an "elect" a people chosen before the foundation of the earth.. And that belief is based off much more then Romans 9..

 

[Eventide]

Sup Eventide

I have not heard of the doctrine of "unconditional election" but I do believe there is an "elect" a people chosen before the foundation of the earth.. And that belief is based off much more then Romans 9..

No doubt that the scriptures refer to members of the body of Christ (hint) as the elect.. did you ever consider WHY they're called the elect ?

 

[Eventide]

No doubt that the scriptures refer to members of the body of Christ (hint) as the elect.. did you ever consider WHY they're called the elect ?

Although with respect to Matthew 24, I don't believe that has anything to do with the church of God, but rather the elect of Israel.. as its context pertains to Israel.

 

[Prince]

No doubt that the scriptures refer to members of the body of Christ (hint) as the elect.. did you ever consider WHY they're called the elect ?

I believe they are called elect because many are called but few are chosen...

Matthew 22:14 For many are called but few are chosen

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

These chosen ones "elects" are not simply christians, actually most christians will worship the antichrit as the true Messiah, NO - These elects are the same ones found in Matthew 24 that will not worship the beast system or its leader and will give testimony against it.

9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

 

[Eventide]

I believe they are called elect because many are called but few are chosen...

Matthew 22:14 For many are called but few are chosen

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

These chosen ones "elects" are not simply christians, actually most christians will worship the antichrit as the true Messiah, NO - These elects are the same ones found in Matthew 24 that will not worship the beast system or its leader and will give testimony against it.

9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

While scripture is clear that we were chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world.. we know that we were not in Christ from before the foundation of the world. Eph 2 tells us that prior to being IN CHRIST that we were dead and lost in trespasses and in sins.

I disagree that Matthew 24 is about the church, it didn't yet exist when these things were taught to the disciples and again, its context is Israel.. those who be in Judaea fleeing to the mountains.. (aligns nicely with Zech 14), and that it not take place on the SABBATH Day..

 

[Eventide]

IMO, the only reason why men are referred to as the elect in scripture is because they are IN CHRIST.. so it's not that they are the elect, but rather that they are in the one who is the elect.

 

[Prince]

While scripture is clear that we were chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world.. we know that we were not in Christ from before the foundation of the world. Eph 2 tells us that prior to being IN CHRIST that we were dead and lost in trespasses and in sins.

I disagree that Matthew 24 is about the church, it didn't yet exist when these things were taught to the disciples and again, its context is Israel.. those who be in Judaea fleeing to the mountains.. (aligns nicely with Zech 14), and that it not take place on the SABBATH Day..

While scripture is clear that we were chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world.

The scripture tells us many are called and few are chosen, that means many were called to be believers "christians" and many were chosen to be believers "christians"

The people that are called to be believers are not elects.

The people that are chosen are the elects

You seem to believe that all christians are elects, that is not true. Lets review the scriptures.

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days

Notice that it say the elects are chosen not called.

 

[Eventide]

The scripture tells us many are called and few are chosen, that means many were called to be believers "christians" and many were chosen to be believers "christians"

The people that are called to be believers are not elects.

The people that are chosen are the elects

You seem to believe that all christians are elects, that is not true. Lets review the scriptures.

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days

I think that God is calling all men today as Genesis 3 speaks in a living and powerful way to that.. and all have been justified by faith.. by believing Him.. HE is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. and since Pentecost the Holy Spirit has been sent into the world to convince the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

We also know that God chooses (elects) none in Adam and all in Christ, the last Adam. That's why I believe that Christ alone is the elect of God..

And I don't connect Matt 24 with the church of God, but rather the Israel of God.

 

[Prince]

I think that God is calling all men today as Genesis 3 speaks in a living and powerful way to that.. and all have been justified by faith.. by believing Him.. HE is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. and since Pentecost the Holy Spirit has been sent into the world to convince the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

We also know that God chooses (elects) none in Adam and all in Christ, the last Adam. That's why I believe that Christ alone is the elect of God..

And I don't connect Matt 24 with the church of God, but rather the Israel of God.

I think that God is calling all men today

I believe God stands at the door (heart) of men and knocks.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

But

I also believe that most christians will follow the antichrist, most out of pure ignorance not knowing that they are following a fake.

So my question would be do you see the people who follow the antichrist (many christians) as elects?

 

[Eventide]

So my question would be do you see the people who follow the antichrist (many christians) as elects?

No, perhaps you have not understood what I have stated numerous times..

The Lord Jesus Christ alone is the elect of God. The only reason WHY the scriptures refer to people as the elect is because they're IN CHRIST, the one who is the elect.

I believe this because the bible is clear that ALL IN ADAM are under the same condemnation.. you, me, the entire human race.. even after we're saved.. it's not our old life which is justified in us, but rather the life of Christ in us that is justified..

 

[Prince]

No, perhaps you have not understood what I have stated numerous times..

The Lord Jesus Christ alone is the elect of God. The only reason WHY the scriptures refer to people as the elect is because they're IN CHRIST, the one who is the elect.

I believe this because the bible is clear that ALL IN ADAM are under the same condemnation.. you, me, the entire human race.. even after we're saved.. it's not our old life which is justified in us, but rather the life of Christ in us that is justified..

No - I believe I understand what your saying, I cannot find scripture but I cannot find scripture to match,,you say

The only reason WHY the scriptures refer to people as the elect is because they're IN CHRIST, the one who is the elect.

I disagree, Not only are the elects in Christ, they have the seal of God in there brains that will keep them from following the false Christ.

What you are in fact saying is that every person who believes in Christ is an elect, sorry friend even satan and the fallen angels believe in Christ. There are many christians who believe in Christ that will be decieved. They are not elects. There are mnay christians who take the mark of the beast, they are not elects.

Revelation 13
13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth (christains as well) them that dwell on the earth

The Lord Jesus Christ alone is the elect of God

Do you have a scripture to back this?

 

[Eventide]

I disagree, Not only are the elects in Christ, they have the seal of God in there brains that will keep them from following the false Christ.

The seal of God in their brains... this is a new one I haven't heard before.

What you are in fact saying is that every person who believes in Christ is an elect, sorry friend even satan and the fallen angels believe in Christ. There are many christians who believe in Christ that will be decieved. They are not elects. There are mnay christians who take the mark of the beast, they are not elects.

Not quite.. every person which does believe and whom God seals with the Holy Spirit.. they are baptized into Christ by GOD and are therefore the elect of God in Him..

I would agree that not all who profess Christ actually have the Spirit of Christ in them... so they would actually not be the elect.. only the ones who GOD baptizes into His body by that same Spirit.

 

[Prince]

The seal of God in their brains... this is a new one I haven't heard before.



Not quite.. every person which does believe and whom God seals with the Holy Spirit.. they are baptized into Christ by GOD and are therefore the elect of God in Him..

I would agree that not all who profess Christ actually have the Spirit of Christ in them... so they would actually not be the elect.. only the ones who GOD baptizes into His body by that same Spirit.

The seal of God in their brains... this is a new one I haven't heard before.

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The brain is inside your forehead...

Not quite.. every person which does believe and whom God seals with the Holy Spirit.. they are baptized into Christ by GOD and are therefore the elect of God in Him

The problem we have is you believe every chrisitan that trully believes in Christ is considered an elect....This is untrue...

Many are christians are called few christian are chosen, you are trying to turn the called into the chosen.

they are baptized into Christ by GOD and are therefore the elect of God in Him..

I ask that you show me where the bible says this?

would agree that not all who profess Christ actually have the Spirit of Christ in them

I agree.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

There are going to be true believers - real believers who love the Lord Jesus who worship God in truth and honesty who are fair and very good people, and you know what? most of them are going to be decieved by satan, so how can we call them elects? We cant.

The elects will not be decieved.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[Eventide]

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The brain is inside your forehead...

The context of this portion of the Revelation is 'the things which shall be hereafter'.. that means the things that come after the 'things which are'.. which pertains to NOW when Christ is building His church, and calling men to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ..

So right now (the things which are), Christ is still building His church.. and this will continue until the fulness of the Gentiles come into it.. and He will then present it to Himself (I believe this will be in Heaven) a glorious church without spot or wrinkle.. or any such thing.. and when John saw this he fell down in worship before the Angel.. and I can imagine why.. The marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready..

And did you read Rev 7 where it tells us that these who are sealed in their forheads are Israelites.. 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes..?

Context is everything.. and Rev 7 and 9 and these sealed ones are with respect to Israelites.. who will be taken through the great time of trouble.. known biblically as the time of JACOB's (Israel's) trouble.. just as Matt 24 applies here.. its context is Israel all the way through.

The problem we have is you believe every chrisitan that trully believes in Christ is considered an elect....This is untrue...

Many are christians are called few christian are chosen, you are trying to turn the called into the chosen.

I ask that you show me where the bible says this?

What I'm saying is that it is ultimately GOD who places ANY person into the BODY OF CHRIST.. and a couple of important places where scripture teaches this is in Eph 1:13 and in 1 Cor 12:13.. which I believe are identical with respect to God sealing us or baptizing us into His body by the power of the Holy Spirit.

This is the way that any person becomes the elect, by GOD placing them into Christ by the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit, after they trust in Christ, after they hear the gospel, and after they believe... so yes, they're believing but it is GOD birthing Christ in them.. and that's WHY they're the elect, because they are IN CHRIST.

There are going to be true believers - real believers who love the Lord Jesus who worship God in truth and honesty who are fair and very good people, and you know what? most of them are going to be decieved by satan, so how can we call them elects? We cant.

The elects will not be decieved.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Once again here, the context is Israel.. and as far as the elect goes.. they're not the elect only because they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but more importantly because God baptized each one into His body by the power of the Holy Spirit.. that's the biblical definition of a Christian imo.. but the elect of Israel as Matt 24 describes is completely distinct from the church of God, at least imo.

 

[warhorse]

The context of this portion of the Revelation is 'the things which shall be hereafter'.. that means the things that come after the 'things which are'.. which pertains to NOW when Christ is building His church, and calling men to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ..

So right now (the things which are), Christ is still building His church.. and this will continue until the fulness of the Gentiles come into it.. and He will then present it to Himself (I believe this will be in Heaven) a glorious church without spot or wrinkle.. or any such thing.. and when John saw this he fell down in worship before the Angel.. and I can imagine why.. The marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready..

And did you read Rev 7 where it tells us that these who are sealed in their forheads are Israelites.. 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes..?

Context is everything.. and Rev 7 and 9 and these sealed ones are with respect to Israelites.. who will be taken through the great time of trouble.. known biblically as the time of JACOB's (Israel's) trouble.. just as Matt 24 applies here.. its context is Israel all the way through.



What I'm saying is that it is ultimately GOD who places ANY person into the BODY OF CHRIST.. and a couple of important places where scripture teaches this is in Eph 1:13 and in 1 Cor 12:13.. which I believe are identical with respect to God sealing us or baptizing us into His body by the power of the Holy Spirit.

This is the way that any person becomes the elect, by GOD placing them into Christ by the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit, after they trust in Christ, after they hear the gospel, and after they believe... so yes, they're believing but it is GOD birthing Christ in them.. and that's WHY they're the elect, because they are IN CHRIST.



Once again here, the context is Israel.. and as far as the elect goes.. they're not the elect only because they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but more importantly because God baptized each one into His body by the power of the Holy Spirit.. that's the biblical definition of a Christian imo.. but the elect of Israel as Matt 24 describes is completely distinct from the church of God, at least imo.

Eventide i agree with your statement that all those who are elect, are elect because of salvation through christ. Thus the elect are all those who are saved. But your dispy understanding is incorrect.

 

[Eventide]

Eventide i agree with your statement that all those who are elect, are elect because of salvation through christ. Thus the elect are all those who are saved. But your dispy understanding is incorrect.

Well, please feel free to show why rather than just make a blanket statement that it is incorrect.

What specifically is incorrect in your opinion and what would be correct in your opinion.