Three Persons - Holy Trinity

[Guest]

As for the GWT judgement, how do you know I, or others for that matter, won't be saved there if we are not saved now?

[MENTION=142]Free[/MENTION] I've tried endlessly to get him to understand this is false. See if you can convince tim that we must be saved in this lifetime first before we die. Good luck.

 

[Atonement]

Greetings to you all in the love of Jesus Christ

The teaching of the Trinity has always been very complex even within the Church, and more so with in forums and messages boards. The group that agrees with the Trinity will provide Scripture(s) to show their belief as such. And of course the group that does not believe in the Trinity will share their Scripture(s) to advocate their belief.

The most difficult thing about the concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone try to explain. But does it make it untruthful, just because we can't understand it?

If you would indulge me for a moment, I will do my very best to explain it the best way I know how, and that is using God's Word as the final Authority.. Do you agree that the final Authority should be based in God's Word??? See there, we already have a mutual agreement..

The Following is found in Scripture (The final authority of God)

FATHER:

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?

I think we can all agree at this point right? I could quote more Scripture, but it's fair to say that we all agree that the Father is God?

SON:

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..
John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us
John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM

Shall I go on or can we all agree what these Scriptures are trying to tell us? No, okay let me continue

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

The over righteous pharisees knew what He was saying, which is why they tried to kill Him.



John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Did Jesus stop Thomas for speaking blasphemy against God by calling Him God? Did Jesus deny Thomas' claim?

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Holy Spirit (Ghost)

Matthew 28:19 Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Romans 5:5 And hope makes not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us.
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed to the day of redemption.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Bible teaches only ONE God:

Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Isaiah 45:21
Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him. Deuteronomy 4:35
I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 45:5
Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God. Isaiah 45:14
I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:18
I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me Isaiah 46:9
Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. Isaiah 43:10

In conclusion, does God's Word have the final Authority? Either it does or it doesn't, these verses here are valid and straight to the heart of the matter. If you noticed, I have kept myself out of the equation in this response, I have not said what I believed, I have not given my opinion on what I believe. I have rather quoted Scripture and allowed His Word (the final authority) to penetrate the hearts of the readers!

So either we have three different Gods? Because it's written in Scripture that all three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are God.
Or we believe in the Trinity. All three are one God
Or we believe that the Bible is full of contradictions and can't be trusted

What do you believe?
I'll take the position of the Word of God

 

[Guest]

Also, saying that the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of us is just a force and doesn't have a will, mind and emotions is like saying..you might as well baptize me with materialism. Empty love that doesn't love you back, because what you're saying is that our souls are not worthy to be loved by something better than materialism. For example, a boyfriend and girlfriend fall in love and share each other's emotions and thinking and will. Well, it's just the same with God, but HIS will, mind and emotions come from heaven.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Just playing around with numbers, you know the math types like me. But the math I see being proclaimed is nonsense. My favorite theologian is Sir Isaac Newton and I believe pretty much the way he did. Check him out sometime. After all, anyone who invents calculus to solve his problems can't be all bad.

Please stop beating around the bush. What is it that you are saying about the doctrine of the Trinity? That is, after all, the topic of this thread, not math.

Which only goes to show that one will not research before asking or claiming something. You can figure that out yourself if you look for ol' Newton--- I believe as he did.

 

[Atonement]

[MENTION=142]Free[/MENTION]

Greetings to you on this wonderful day

Let me give the short answer here.

Isaac Newton took the Eastern orthodox view on the Trinity rather than the Western view. However, there has been much speculation and debate, because many have said before he died that he came to reject the Eastern orthodox view. And this has caused much debate. However, this topic is not about Newton and what he agreed or disagreed with at the end of his life. What was important was the fact that Newton was a Christian.. End of that discussion..

 

[Free]

Just playing around with numbers, you know the math types like me. But the math I see being proclaimed is nonsense. My favorite theologian is Sir Isaac Newton and I believe pretty much the way he did. Check him out sometime. After all, anyone who invents calculus to solve his problems can't be all bad.

Please stop beating around the bush. What is it that you are saying about the doctrine of the Trinity? That is, after all, the topic of this thread, not math.

Which only goes to show that one will not research before asking or claiming something. You can figure that out yourself if you look for ol' Newton--- I believe as he did.

It is a really poor debate practice to ask others to research your position on a matter rather than coming right out with it and providing support.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I was reading this thread and noticed that the advertisement above just happened to ask,

"Is God a Trinity?"

 

[Guest]

God is a trinity because we have three different persons with three different personalities/three different roles..but under one God. :D

 

[WIP]

Greetings to you all in the love of Jesus Christ

The teaching of the Trinity has always been very complex even within the Church, and more so with in forums and messages boards. The group that agrees with the Trinity will provide Scripture(s) to show their belief as such. And of course the group that does not believe in the Trinity will share their Scripture(s) to advocate their belief.

The most difficult thing about the concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone try to explain. But does it make it untruthful, just because we can't understand it?

If you would indulge me for a moment, I will do my very best to explain it the best way I know how, and that is using God's Word as the final Authority.. Do you agree that the final Authority should be based in God's Word??? See there, we already have a mutual agreement..

The Following is found in Scripture (The final authority of God)

FATHER:

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?

I think we can all agree at this point right? I could quote more Scripture, but it's fair to say that we all agree that the Father is God?

SON:

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..
John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us
John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM

Shall I go on or can we all agree what these Scriptures are trying to tell us? No, okay let me continue

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

The over righteous pharisees knew what He was saying, which is why they tried to kill Him.



John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Did Jesus stop Thomas for speaking blasphemy against God by calling Him God? Did Jesus deny Thomas' claim?

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Holy Spirit (Ghost)

Matthew 28:19 Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Romans 5:5 And hope makes not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us.
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed to the day of redemption.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Bible teaches only ONE God:

Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Isaiah 45:21
Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him. Deuteronomy 4:35
I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 45:5
Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God. Isaiah 45:14
I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:18
I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me Isaiah 46:9
Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. Isaiah 43:10

In conclusion, does God's Word have the final Authority? Either it does or it doesn't, these verses here are valid and straight to the heart of the matter. If you noticed, I have kept myself out of the equation in this response, I have not said what I believed, I have not given my opinion on what I believe. I have rather quoted Scripture and allowed His Word (the final authority) to penetrate the hearts of the readers!

So either we have three different Gods? Because it's written in Scripture that all three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are God.
Or we believe in the Trinity. All three are one God
Or we believe that the Bible is full of contradictions and can't be trusted

What do you believe?
I'll take the position of the Word of God

This is why I don't debate trying to explain a Godly existence using human understanding. Just believe.

 

[Atonement]

This is why I don't debate trying to explain a Godly existence using human understanding. Just believe.

[MENTION=45432]WIP[/MENTION] Greetings to you in the Lord Jesus Christ

I don't come to debate at all, if all possible. I use to be once upon a time on here, one of those over zealous, hypocritical debaters. But as time moved forward and the years came and went; I think that I've been taught by the Holy Spirit, to rather be a voice of reason and maybe bring another view point as someone on the outside looking in, sorta speak.

God Bless you brother

 

[cleanfreak]

urk--

You have used the phrase "God the Son" in several of your post.

Would you please be so kind as to provide scripture that references Jesus as "God the Son"?

Believing that Jesus is God (deity) you would have to believe and confess in your own heart that God raised him from dead. The transformation takes places through your mouth and through your heart. Have faith, blessings. Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Urk-

You answered absolutely nothing from my request.

 

[farouk]

John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17 has many references to God in Three Persons.

Also the end of Matthew 28.

Also, a careful reading of a great chapter such as Romans 8 shows that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all intimately involved in the work of redemption.

 

[cleanfreak]

John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17 has many references to God in Three Persons.

Also the end of Matthew 28.

Also, a careful reading of a great chapter such as Romans 8 shows that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all intimately involved in the work of redemption.

Agreed.

However, I have yet to find any scripture using "God the Son" to describe Jesus.

 

[farouk]

John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17 has many references to God in Three Persons.

Also the end of Matthew 28.

Also, a careful reading of a great chapter such as Romans 8 shows that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all intimately involved in the work of redemption.

Agreed.

However, I have yet to find any scripture using "God the Son" to describe Jesus.

He IS God, in any case; there are plenty of Scriptures for this.

 

[cleanfreak]

He IS God,

Agreed

I am not saying he is not.

in any case; there are plenty of Scriptures for this.

yes, but none of them refer to him as "God the Son"

 

[farouk]

He IS God,

Agreed

I am not saying he is not.

in any case; there are plenty of Scriptures for this.

yes, but none of them refer to him as "God the Son"

It's an English translation anyway and there are many phrases translated 'the Son of God' in the New Testament.

 

[cleanfreak]

He IS God,

Agreed

I am not saying he is not.

in any case; there are plenty of Scriptures for this.

yes, but none of them refer to him as "God the Son"

It's an English translation anyway and there are many phrases translated 'the Son of God' in the New Testament.

Correct.

Son of God is translated many times.

"God the Son" is not and no where to be found.

 

[farouk]

Agreed

I am not saying he is not.

yes, but none of them refer to him as "God the Son"

It's an English translation anyway and there are many phrases translated 'the Son of God' in the New Testament.

Correct.

Son of God is translated many times.

"God the Son" is not and no where to be found.

Pretty strongly implied, though, at the end of Matthew 28 for example.

 

[cleanfreak]

Agreed

I am not saying he is not.

yes, but none of them refer to him as "God the Son"

It's an English translation anyway and there are many phrases translated 'the Son of God' in the New Testament.

Correct.

Son of God is translated many times.

"God the Son" is not and no where to be found.

Pretty strongly implied, though, at the end of Matthew 28 for example.

Maybe so, but my point is, it has become a common phrase amongst Christians today and the phrase is nowhere found in the Bible in which our Christianity is based on.

Try bringing this up in your Sunday School class and watch as folks condemn you to hell with the looks they give....... only to be proven wrong in the end.

It amazes me how much the Church of today does not have a real clue what is actually in the Bible.......just this past Sunday, I had to convince the class that "cleanliness is next to Godliness" is nowhere to be found.

:nod

 

[farouk]

There are some things that we were never meant to completely understand. This is just something we are to exercise faith with, and accept as true.

[MENTION=90631]Knotical[/MENTION] : Yes, God is far, far bigger than my little mind. But the truth of God in Three Persons is definitely revealed in Scripture for our acceptance and faith.

Blessings.