Tongues, initial evidence of one having the Holy Spirit

[FightingAtheism]

Paidon,

You are claiming that we receive the Holy Spirit immediately once we receive water baptism. Then I have a question for you: Why does the Bible tell us to ask for the Holy Spirit?

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Lk.11:13)

I asked and received the Holy Spirit at the age of 11 (with evidence of speaking with tongues, of course), and haven't received water baptism at the moment.

You have provided all these passages and never mentioned that there was a sign, the sign of speaking with tongues.

 

[cyberjosh]

FightingAtheism,

I will try sometime soon to give you a detailed reply to your last reply to me (I have some studying to do this week though so it might not be until the weekend). But in the mean time I would like to see your response to Lovely's objection/point. It does indeed seem that you are implying that, and much of what my post was based on was showing you that if you are saved then you have the Holy Spirit, no if's, and's, or but's about it. It is how we are regenerated, there is no separating the work and habitation of the Holy Spirit from salvation/regeneration. Thus if you deny that then you would seem to consign all non-tongues-speaking Christians to the category of "lost" or "unsaved". I think that is a legitimate point which needs an adequate and doctrinally correct answer.

Thanks & God Bless,

~Josh

 

[FightingAtheism]

CyberShark

But in the mean time I would like to see your response to Lovely's objection/point.

Could you please point it out?

It does indeed seem that you are implying that, and much of what my post was based on was showing you that if you are saved then you have the Holy Spirit, no if's, and's, or but's about it. It is how we are regenerated, there is no separating the work and habitation of the Holy Spirit from salvation/regeneration. Thus if you deny that then you would seem to consign all non-tongues-speaking Christians to the category of "lost" or "unsaved". I think that is a legitimate point which needs an adequate and doctrinally correct answer.

A person receives the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking with tongues. Whether someone is saved without the Holy Spirit, the Bible gives us a clear answer. It is not in my right to judge you; to say that you are going to hell.

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. (Lk.12:47)

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (Ac.19:2)

Do you think that they, not knowing that whether there be any Holy Spirit, would go to hell? One thing I see from you guys, is that you want me to damn you to hell. God forbid, He is the Judge. Please don't go there, I want this to be with love and peaceful.

Anyways, this doctrine that I'm speaking unto you guys is based on not just one or two verses, but on many verses; it is based on scripture.

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
(Eph.2:20)

You don't agree, refute with scripture. This is how it works.

God bless.

 

[kton16]

CyberShark

But in the mean time I would like to see your response to Lovely's objection/point.

Could you please point it out?

[quote:nb66t1ri] It does indeed seem that you are implying that, and much of what my post was based on was showing you that if you are saved then you have the Holy Spirit, no if's, and's, or but's about it. It is how we are regenerated, there is no separating the work and habitation of the Holy Spirit from salvation/regeneration. Thus if you deny that then you would seem to consign all non-tongues-speaking Christians to the category of "lost" or "unsaved". I think that is a legitimate point which needs an adequate and doctrinally correct answer.

A person receives the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking with tongues. Whether someone is saved without the Holy Spirit, the Bible gives us a clear answer. It is not in my right to judge you; to say that you are going to hell.

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. (Lk.12:47)

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (Ac.19:2)

Do you think that they, not knowing that whether there be any Holy Spirit, would go to hell? One thing I see from you guys, is that you want me to damn you to hell. God forbid, He is the Judge. Please don't go there, I want this to be with love and peaceful.

Anyways, this doctrine that I'm speaking unto you guys is based on not just one or two verses, but on many verses; it is based on scripture.

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
(Eph.2:20)

You don't agree, refute with scripture. This is how it works.

God bless.[/quote:nb66t1ri]
:amen

 

[lovely]

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If we speak with the righteousness of faith, we will understand through the Word that tongues do not save, nor are they 'evidence' of the Holy Spirit in a believer. This belief, is divisive, and requires one to isolate, and twist, scripture.

1 Corinthians 12
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
So the church, which is the body of Christ, is made up of many, having different gifts
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Paul explains clearly that not all will have tongues, but that all the different administrations and gifts are of the same Spirit and the same Lord. He would not have us be divisive by twisting the Word to lord our gifts over others. The more excellent Way is LOVE. They will know us by our LOVE.

To say that one must speak in tongues to be saved is heretical...it's deceitful and divisive. We will know them by their fruits. I encourage others to read the Whole of the Word about this issue.

 

[mutzrein]

To say that one must speak in tongues to be saved is heretical...it's deceitful and divisive. We will know them by their fruits. I encourage others to read the Whole of the Word about this issue.

And as a tongue talkin' turkey I say amen and AMEN!

The Lord bless you Lovely

 

[kingdavid]

Re: Initial evidence of the Holy Spirit -Speaking with Tongues

My Position

I believe that the Holy Spirit has to be proven with somekind of evidence, and the initial evidence would be speaking with tongues.

What is it for?

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. -1Co.14:2

"In the spirit he speaketh mysteries" at this moment a person with the Holy Spirit has the ability to pray for someone or something he doesn't know about.

He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. -1Co.14:4

At this moment, the tongue speaker is also edifying himself.

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Co.14:14

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
-1Co.14:15

Holy Spirit is proved by speaking in tongues

Let’s look at the book of Acts. book of Acts is the book that shows us the actions of the Apostles; it shows us the experiences of the Apostles. It shows us of what takes place in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

On the day of the Pentecost, all of the 120 disciples received the Holy Spirit, and one significant is, is that all of them spoke with tongues: “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. -Ac.2:4â€Â

Later on, the house of Cornelius received the Holy Spirit:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(Ac.10:44-47)

“For they had heard them speak with tonguesâ€Â, this passage is saying that the House of Cornelius received the Holy Spirit because they had heard them speak with tongues.

Let’s look at this passage:

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. (Ac.11:15)

“As on us on the beginningâ€Â, I have a conclusion, which would be that we, Christians, are supposed to receive the Holy Spirit the same as the disciples did. We are supposed to speak in tongues! “As the Spirit gave them utteranceâ€Â- the Spirit gives all of the people who are baptized in the Holy Spirit the ability to speak in tongues.

Look what Jesus had told: “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (Mk.16:17)â€Â

I believe that all of these signs should follow them that truly believe in Jesus and his word.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. -1Co.14:2

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Co.14:14

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
-1Co.14:15

From these passages we can conclude that when we pray in an unknown tongues, our spirit is praying. Question: If you have the Holy Spirit, why don't you have the ability to pray in the spirit?

Do all speak with tongues?

"Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" -1 Corinthians 12:30

There's a big misinterpretation of the verse. In this chapter, you notice that Paul is talking about the 'different'(v10) kind of tongues, meaning 'not the usual' kind of tongues. The usual kind of tongues is a language no men can understand nor interpret. However, the 'different' kinds of tongues are the type of tongues that can be interpreted.

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: -1Co.14:18

They all spoke with tongues. However, if my conclusion wouldn't be correct, then why would Paul tell them that tongues is not for everyone if they all spoke with tongues?

Tongues is not for preaching

The first ones to speak with tongues were the disciples, which occured on the day of the Pentecost. People often believe that on that day they were speaking in earthly languages.

I believe this to be incorrect. On that day, there was a two-fold miracle going on. The miracle of speaking and hearing. The miracle of hearing would be the enabling of some to understand tongues. Not all understood them because some onlookers made fun of them and accused them of being drunk (Acts 2:13). (Source: tbm.org/tongues.htm)

As we accept Jesus Christ as our saviour, we automatically recieve the Holy Spirit?

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
(Ac.19:1-6)

This passage above clearly states that we don't automatically recieve the Holy Spirit as we believe.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
(Ac.8:14-18)

They did believe in Jesus Christ, they were baptised, but they hadn't yet received the Holy Ghost. The conclusion is very clear.

i believe in the gift of tongues but what are you going to do when even the devils in hell speak in tongues and prophecy? many of these unbelieveing cultures like the indians and witch doctors in africa and others speak in tongues and then dangle a pencil on the end of a string and the interpretation will be given and then turn around and drink blood out of a skull. many of the people engaging in the occult also practicce speaking in tongues. the scripture says gifts and callings are without repentance and clearly shows then unrepentant men will have gifts much the same as those who have come to repentance.


accounts have been given in churches where people were speaking in tongues in a church and a man there that knew several languages could understand exactly what all of them were saying in different languages, and a few were praising God and a few were cursing God and they didn't know it because they were told that only those that have the holy ghost can speak in tongues. that isn't true and in error. you can't base having the holy ghost on speaking in tongues alone.

 

[kingdavid]

Re: Initial evidence of the Holy Spirit -Speaking with Tongues

Hello FightingAtheism and welcome to the Bible Study Forum

Do me a favor would ya? Tongues can get into a heated debate rather quickly, and the spirit of the Bible Study forum is to avoid debates while encouraging deep biblical studies.

I would encourage you and others to take a look at the Announcement at the top of the Bible Study forum to the topic : Recommendations and Guidelines for an effective Bible Study and if I could point you to this part:

1. Exegesis; Critical explanation or analysis, especially of a text. (I.E. What does the text mean?)
2. Hermeneutics; The theory and methodology of interpretation, especially of scriptural text. (I.E. How did you come to the conclusion of your Exegesis? Does it agree with the Bible as a whole?)
3. Redaction; to draw up or frame ( I.E. a statement, proclamation, etc.)

I realize that this method of study is a little more difficult than stringing together scripture to present a view, but if we don't have the correct exegesis, we'll draw the wrong redaction because the words written in the text are more than just letters and words, they are active and breathing. They are alive. In other words, if you want to understand the texts, sometimes it's best to get behind the texts to see what's driving it.... Find the agenda of the writer and the main point in tension with an opposing understanding.

While looking at your initial post, I can see several exegetical errors, but the one that pops out the loudest for me is Acts 10:44-47. It is better to look at the two differing cultures and their various differences in beliefs and custom's to fully appreciate what's really happening here...

I will try to post more tomorrow permitting...

Grace and peace.

what good is it to have a forum if you cannot debate??? it is wrong to speak with the wisdom of man also. paul didn't preach the gospel by using eloquent words of mans wisdom and no christian should. so if you would leave all the eloquent words and swelling words of mans wisdom out of your speach would be greatly appreciated among us christians and we also may understand you better.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If we speak with the righteousness of faith, we will understand through the Word that tongues do not save, nor are they 'evidence' of the Holy Spirit in a believer. This belief, is divisive, and requires one to isolate, and twist, scripture.

We believe in Jesus Christ, we believe in his word. His word was to ask for the Holy Spirit. That's what we do, and we receive it with evidence of speaking with tongues.

This belief, is divisive, and requires one to isolate, and twist, scripture

This belief is based on scripture, it is very clear. If you would atleast point it out of where I'm twisting scripture, your argument will be much stronger.

1 Corinthians 12
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
So the church, which is the body of Christ, is made up of many, having different gifts
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Paul explains clearly that not all will have tongues, but that all the different administrations and gifts are of the same Spirit and the same Lord. He would not have us be divisive by twisting the Word to lord our gifts over others. The more excellent Way is LOVE. They will know us by our LOVE.

To say that one must speak in tongues to be saved is heretical...it's deceitful and divisive. We will know them by their fruits. I encourage others to read the Whole of the Word about this issue.

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
(1Co.12:10)

Not all have 'divers kinds of tongues'. There's quite a difference. Skim back, I touch on the topic quite a few times.

 

[Jon-Marc]

I have had the Holy Spirit within me since May 18, 1963 when I was born again, and I have NEVER spoken in tongues. The only thing (in my opinion) that tongues is evidence of is that the speaker is trying to impress the hearers of how spiritual he/she is.

The "tongues" that were given to the disciples at Pentecost were LANGUAGES and NOT unknown tongues. Everyone there was able to hear the gospel spoken in their own language because of God performing that miracle. However, NOWHERE in God's word does it say "You must speak in tongues as evidence that you are saved and have the Holy Spirit." Search the scriptures all you want; you won't find that in there. We should be known by our love and not by our speaking some unknown gibberish.

 

[kingdavid]

I have had the Holy Spirit within me since May 18, 1963 when I was born again, and I have NEVER spoken in tongues. The only thing (in my opinion) that tongues is evidence of is that the speaker is trying to impress the hearers of how spiritual he/she is.

The "tongues" that were given to the disciples at Pentecost were LANGUAGES and NOT unknown tongues. Everyone there was able to hear the gospel spoken in their own language because of God performing that miracle. However, NOWHERE in God's word does it say "You must speak in tongues as evidence that you are saved and have the Holy Spirit." Search the scriptures all you want; you won't find that in there. We should be known by our love and not by our speaking some unknown gibberish.

there is a scripture that says, ...they "shall" speak with new tongues(mark 16:17).

i, like you have not spoken with tongues either. I am still waiting on the Lord to fulfill this promise in me.

 

[kingdavid]

Paidon,

You are claiming that we receive the Holy Spirit immediately once we receive water baptism. Then I have a question for you: Why does the Bible tell us to ask for the Holy Spirit?

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Lk.11:13)

I asked and received the Holy Spirit at the age of 11 (with evidence of speaking with tongues, of course), and haven't received water baptism at the moment.

You have provided all these passages and never mentioned that there was a sign, the sign of speaking with tongues.

i don't think anyone said you couldn't receive the holy spirit b4 you are water baptized. however, if you haven't received the holy spirit b4 hand then when you are baptized correctly in the NAME of the Lord Jesus Christ then you will receive the Holy Spirit immediately afterward.


now the scriptures state that all who received the holy spirit b4 hand were commanded to be baptized acts 11:47-48 and paul who received the holy ghost b4 hand was led quickly to be baptized acts 9:18



why have you not obeyed the Lord to be baptized??? know ye not, that you are born by water, blood, and Spirit? repent, and be baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins...

 

[FightingAtheism]

I have had the Holy Spirit within me since May 18, 1963 when I was born again, and I have NEVER spoken in tongues. The only thing (in my opinion) that tongues is evidence of is that the speaker is trying to impress the hearers of how spiritual he/she is.

The "tongues" that were given to the disciples at Pentecost were LANGUAGES and NOT unknown tongues. Everyone there was able to hear the gospel spoken in their own language because of God performing that miracle. However, NOWHERE in God's word does it say "You must speak in tongues as evidence that you are saved and have the Holy Spirit." Search the scriptures all you want; you won't find that in there. We should be known by our love and not by our speaking some unknown gibberish.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
(1Co.14:14)

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co.14:15)

You can see from the verses that I have provided that they were and are unknown tongues. Question: If you have the Holy Spirit, then why don't you have the ability to pray in the spirit? Since when you pray with an unknown tongue, your spirit is praying.

should be known by our love and not by our speaking some unknown gibberish

Any language that you don't know will sound gibberish. When in fact, it is not.

 

[FightingAtheism]

i don't think anyone said you couldn't receive the holy spirit b4 you are water baptized. however, if you haven't received the holy spirit b4 hand then when you are baptized correctly in the NAME of the Lord Jesus Christ then you will receive the Holy Spirit immediately afterward.


now the scriptures state that all who received the holy spirit b4 hand were commanded to be baptized acts 11:47-48 and paul who received the holy ghost b4 hand was led quickly to be baptized acts 9:18

We don't immediately receive the Holy Spirit after we are baptized. We are supposed to ask for the Holy Spirit, and if we believe, we will receive the Holy Spirit. The passages in Acts clearly prove that, that we don't immediately receive the Holy Spirit after we are baptized. Take a look at Paul and more other passages in the book of Acts.

 

[kingdavid]

i don't think anyone said you couldn't receive the holy spirit b4 you are water baptized. however, if you haven't received the holy spirit b4 hand then when you are baptized correctly in the NAME of the Lord Jesus Christ then you will receive the Holy Spirit immediately afterward.


now the scriptures state that all who received the holy spirit b4 hand were commanded to be baptized acts 11:47-48 and paul who received the holy ghost b4 hand was led quickly to be baptized acts 9:18

We don't immediately receive the Holy Spirit after we are baptized. We are supposed to ask for the Holy Spirit, and if we believe, we will receive the Holy Spirit. The passages in Acts clearly prove that, that we don't immediately receive the Holy Spirit after we are baptized. Take a look at Paul and more other passages in the book of Acts.

there is only one place in the book of acts that they didn't receive the holy ghost immediately after being baptized. it was in acts ch. 8 when philip baptized some people and it states that they waited for peter and john to lay hands on them to receive the holy spirit. I am not sure why this is. i only know that philip was a deacon and not a pastor so i can only speculate that this may be the reason.

 

[FightingAtheism]

i don't think anyone said you couldn't receive the holy spirit b4 you are water baptized. however, if you haven't received the holy spirit b4 hand then when you are baptized correctly in the NAME of the Lord Jesus Christ then you will receive the Holy Spirit immediately afterward.


now the scriptures state that all who received the holy spirit b4 hand were commanded to be baptized acts 11:47-48 and paul who received the holy ghost b4 hand was led quickly to be baptized acts 9:18

We don't immediately receive the Holy Spirit after we are baptized. We are supposed to ask for the Holy Spirit, and if we believe, we will receive the Holy Spirit. The passages in Acts clearly prove that, that we don't immediately receive the Holy Spirit after we are baptized. Take a look at Paul and more other passages in the book of Acts.

there is only one place in the book of acts that they didn't receive the holy ghost immediately after being baptized. it was in acts ch. 8 when philip baptized some people and it states that they waited for peter and john to lay hands on them to receive the holy spirit. I am not sure why this is. i only know that philip was a deacon and not a pastor so i can only speculate that this may be the reason.

You're incorrect.

1.) Paul

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
(Ac.9:17,18)

Received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.

2.)House of Cornelius received the Holy Spirit:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(Ac.10:44-47)

Received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized.

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
(Ac.19:1-6)

Immediately? You don't know the time period.. "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them", this would not be "immediately", we can see that there was a time period.

From the passages I have provided we can see that we don't immediately receive the Holy Ghost upon believing in Jesus Christ, and we don't receive the Holy Ghost immediately after baptism. So this is why the Bible tells us to ask for the Holy Ghost:

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Lk.11:13)

Ask for the Holy Spirit, and if you believe, it shall be given to you. :yes

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
(Mt.7:7-11)

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
(Jas.1:6,7)

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
(Mt.21:22) :amen :yes

 

[Imagican]

Firstly, to answer the title of this thread, we MUST be able to FIRST identify the 'gift of tongues' so far as 'IT'S PURPOSE'. What was the REASON for 'tongues' to BEGIN with?

We KNOW that the 'gift of tongues' was FOR A SIGN. But a sign NOT TO THEM THAT BELEIVE, but for them that BELIEVE NOT. The key to answering the question of the OP is how this pertains to THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT.

All that is being discussed so far pertains to 'them that believe'. So obviously there will be NO correct conclusion so long as this path is followed.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Jon-Marc]

there is a scripture that says, ...they "shall" speak with new tongues(mark 16:17).

I DO speak with a new tongue. I no longer use profanity, and I praise God's name instead of cursing it. I believe that THAT is the "new tongue" with which we speak--not some gibberish that neither we or any who hear us understand.

Besides English, the only other "tongue" I want to speak is French since I'm French on my dad's side, but it's not important enough to want to learn something I will never use.

God has no problem understanding me the way I talk, and it's not necessary for me to learn some "tongue" that only God understands. As i said, my "new tongue" is a tongue of praise instead of cursing.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Tongues to be a sign for unbelievers is not the purpose of tongues. It would just be a sign, just as me breathing is a sign that I'm alive, but not the purpose of me being alive. It is not a sign to the believers because the believers take it as ordinary. It is a sign to the unbelievers because it is something new, something not ordinary. But let me explain the purpose of speaking with tongues.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

At this moment, the tongue speaker is speaking mysteries in the spirit. He can be praying for someone or something he doesn't know about. As you can see, this is a good ability that every Christian with the Holy Spirit to have. As it is the Holy Spirit praying through you. For ex., there was a situation when this person was in a car accident. So at this time, something told the father of the person to start praying. So the father started praying with tongues. Then about a minute later he got a phone call that his son had just got in a car accident. Thank God everything was alright with him. This is just an example for the purpose of praying with tongues.

 

[FightingAtheism]

there is a scripture that says, ...they "shall" speak with new tongues(mark 16:17).

I DO speak with a new tongue. I no longer use profanity, and I praise God's name instead of cursing it. I believe that THAT is the "new tongue" with which we speak--not some gibberish that neither we or any who hear us understand.

Besides English, the only other "tongue" I want to speak is French since I'm French on my dad's side, but it's not important enough to want to learn something I will never use.

God has no problem understanding me the way I talk, and it's not necessary for me to learn some "tongue" that only God understands. As i said, my "new tongue" is a tongue of praise instead of cursing.

The Bible tells us of what Jesus ment when he said that "they shall speak with new tongues (Mark 16:17). Take a look at Acts, 1 Corinthians 12,14..

What did Paul ment: "I thank God I speak with tongues more then ye all"?