Total depravity?

[electedbyHim]

Thanks, I was just trying to make it easy on Dorothy.

Thanks for not bombarding us with reams of scriptures as some do.

Now what do you think these have to do with the discussion? Do you think “God chooses the foolish THINGS” means He chooses foolish people?

Let’s test this in real life. Does God choose foolish people in particular? I assure you, Paul, CS Lewis, AW Tozer, Wesley, Luther, Newton, and many more were not foolish by any stretch of the imagination.

And we are not things.

What are “things” that appear foolish to the “wise?” The cross, the resurrection, life after death, believing in God/Christ. Just talk to atheists about these matters and they’ll often laugh in your face despising these matters. And many consider those who profess belief in such weak. These are the “foolish” things and elsewhere the Bible says this. Shall I find the exact references for you or does this ring a bell?

I have been reading many threads in the forum, particularly the Calvinism threads. I have been down this road many a time and I understand that only the Lord can open ones eyes and heart to these Biblical truths. It is not worth it to me to debate on a forum.

I sit on the side lines and read everything.

I have read all of the posts from all the participants (in many of the Calvinists threads) and I would like to say that you are quite angry in your responses, you do not answer others questions or claims truthfully or Biblically.

You claim that those who believe the 5 points of Calvinism are angry and hateful and that the doctrine is unbiblical.

It is pride that blinds those who do not believe in Predestination or Election. Man will always want to be the center of their own universe. Election and predestination is a very sobering and humbling doctrine, they are second in my opinion to the Sovereignty to God.

I will tell you that when the Lord opened my eyes to His sovereignty over everything (especially salvation). I cried because of the evilness of my pride. I thank Him daily for His Sovereignty and providence.

I have a few questions for you.

Since you chose salvation, do you thank yourself in prayer for choosing God?

Do you live in fear that you can lose your salvation because it depends on you to maintain your salvation?

That would be an insane way to live if I though I could lose my salvation. I will stop at that because I thought I saw something about not being able to talk about once saved always saved. I do not want heads to explode.

Apologies for hijacking this thread and not answering your reply to the scriptures I posted.
By the way, those scriptures are self-explanatory, I believe even a child can understand them.

Grace and peace to you

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have been reading many threads in the forum, particularly the Calvinism threads. I have been down this road many a time and I understand that only the Lord can open ones eyes and heart to these Biblical truths. It is not worth it to me to debate on a forum.

I sit on the side lines and read everything.

I have read all of the posts from all the participants (in many of the Calvinists threads) and I would like to say that you are quite angry in your responses, you do not answer others questions or claims truthfully or Biblically.

You claim that those who believe the 5 points of Calvinism are angry and hateful and that the doctrine is unbiblical.

It is pride that blinds those who do not believe in Predestination or Election. Man will always want to be the center of their own universe. Election and predestination is a very sobering and humbling doctrine, they are second in my opinion to the Sovereignty to God.

I will tell you that when the Lord opened my eyes to His sovereignty over everything (especially salvation). I cried because of the evilness of my pride. I thank Him daily for His Sovereignty and providence.

I have a few questions for you.

Since you chose salvation, do you thank yourself in prayer for choosing God?

Do you live in fear that you can lose your salvation because it depends on you to maintain your salvation?

That would be an insane way to live if I though I could lose my salvation. I will stop at that because I thought I saw something about not being able to talk about once saved always saved. I do not want heads to explode.

Apologies for hijacking this thread and not answering your reply to the scriptures I posted.
By the way, those scriptures are self-explanatory, I believe even a child can understand them.

Grace and peace to you

You couldn’t be more wrong about my feelings or emotions in this. You wrongly think I’m angry because I’m direct. That’s how the Continental people in Europe communicate. The Anglo-Americans only say the direct truth when angry enough. So you think I’m angry because I use direct speech. None of my words, though, point to anger. You, however, do not focus on the argument but attack my character instead. If the Holy Spirit were your teacher opening up your eyes, you wouldn’t have let your pride put me down at the start. My actual feelings are that I’m sorry for my calvinist brethren. They will never come to understand God.

Please provide my post where I said calvinists are angry and hateful. I never used those words (you did however) as I don’t think that. I think they’re deceived.

Your response is an example of the deception. You apologized for not answering the scripture I present and then say they are self-explanatory. Then why apologize. Grown learned men debate these scriptures. I’ve never ever seen children do so. You are deceiving yourself.

Your questions show that you do not understand my position. You’d need to first understand my position. You deceive yourself in thinking you understand.

The other point on calvinism that saddens me is you have to believe God cruelly chose some unfortunate people for hell before they were born. God predestined some for hell without any hope. This I find extremely sad.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You seemed to overlook this phrase in v.5..."for adoption to himself as sons"...a certain kind of people? yes. But thank you for your 'speculation'.

No, you edited out the bit of scripture you don’t like which is why you have to quote only a few words. I didn’t speculate.

My point being, you are no more freer from the speculation you accuse others of.

But I didn’t. The whole of the New Testament teaching is to become like Christ, a different kind of person, a new creature where the old has passed away. It’s not just so we avoid hell.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Notice the true progression: Chosen for salvation-> through sanctification by the Spirit -> then faith.
Your view: faith first, -> then sanctification by the Spirit

In languages, the order of words in a sentence do NOT correspond to the order of events.

We came to the celebration on time traveling by car. The means, the car, actually came first in order of events.

Salvation comes by faith. Faith is the means, not the caboose. This is a repeated statement in the NT. “What must I do to be saved? Believe” is the answer, not wait for God to save you so you can believe.

 

[electedbyHim]

You couldn’t be more wrong about my feelings or emotions in this. You wrongly think I’m angry because I’m direct. That’s how the Continental people in Europe communicate. The Anglo-Americans only say the direct truth when angry enough. So you think I’m angry because I use direct speech. None of my words, though, point to anger. You, however, do not focus on the argument but attack my character instead. If the Holy Spirit were your teacher opening up your eyes, you wouldn’t have let your pride put me down at the start. My actual feelings are that I’m sorry for my calvinist brethren. They will never come to understand God.

Please provide my post where I said calvinists are angry and hateful. I never used those words (you did however) as I don’t think that. I think they’re deceived.

Your response is an example of the deception. You apologized for not answering the scripture I present and then say they are self-explanatory. Then why apologize. Grown learned men debate these scriptures. I’ve never ever seen children do so. You are deceiving yourself.

Your questions show that you do not understand my position. You’d need to first understand my position. You deceive yourself in thinking you understand.

The other point on calvinism that saddens me is you have to believe God cruelly chose some unfortunate people for hell before they were born. God predestined some for hell without any hope. This I find extremely sad.

I expected as much.

If Scripture or the brethren in this thread or any other cannot convince you, there is no need for me to try. You are positive that we do not understand the Lord and His ways. I have been praying for you that the Lord opens your eyes to His truth and not what you perceive to be truth.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I expected as much.

If Scripture or the brethren in this thread or any other cannot convince you, there is no need for me to try. You are positive that we do not understand the Lord and His ways. I have been praying for you that the Lord opens your eyes to His truth and not what you perceive to be truth.

Grace and peace to you.

I can test whether you understand God. Why does God choose some for hell and some for Heaven as you believe? Please explain His reasons.

 

[electedbyHim]

I can test whether you understand God. Why does God choose some for hell and some for Heaven as you believe? Please explain His reasons.

Here is your answer.

To demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known (for the unregenerate). Also in order that He might make known the riches of His glory (for the regenerate elect)

Rom 9:22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory—


Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory—

Vessels of wrath prepared for destruction is surely one of the most tragic identifications of unbelievers in all of Scripture. Paul, of course, is speaking of ungodly and unrepentant human vessels, all of whom will feel the ultimate wrath of God, for which they have been prepared for destruction by their own rejection of Him. As already noted, it is not that God makes men sinful but that He leaves them in their sin unless they repent of it and turn to His Son for deliverance.

The Greek verb rendered prepared is passive. God is not the subject doing the preparing. There is the very clear sense in this use of the passive voice to relieve God of the responsibility and to put it fully on the shoulders of those who refuse to heed His Word and believe in His Son. They are prepared by their own rejection for a place (hell) prepared by God, not originally for them but “for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41).

The corollary of that sobering truth regarding unbelievers is the comforting truth regarding believers: And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

God allowed sin to enter the world not only to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known but also to demonstrate the riches of His glory by bestowing His grace upon vessels of mercy (cf. Eph. 2:6–7). These are people which He prepared beforehand for glory. In this instance, the Greek verb rendered prepared is in the active voice, and the subject doing the action is specifically God (He). The great work God did in saving the elect puts His glory on display before all angels and all men (cf. Rev. 5:9–14). He has the absolute right to reveal and demonstrate His character in any way He chooses, whether by His just condemnation of unbelievers or by His gracious redemption of believers.

To go further, why would anyone even question God?

Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”?

No man can understand Gods ways, if they say that they do, they are a liar.

Can anyone understand the virgin birth, the trinity, Jesus as fully human and fully man?

These are unexplained truths. Our small and sin infected minds cannot grasp such holy truths. We take it on faith.

So why even question the Lord?

You either accept this or do not.

Humans send themselves to hell.

I know many of your belief think that we make God to be a monster, I have heard this many times.

Gods justice and wrath are definitely not conceivable by human standards.

Please do not come with a reply about the scriptures are out of context or they do not mean tat.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Whatever]

In languages, the order of words in a sentence do NOT correspond to the order of events.

Never ever?
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

You were chosen from the beginning for salvation. How would this happen? Through (by way of) sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

You are still saved by faith. No faith, no salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

Never ever?
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

You were chosen from the beginning for salvation. How would this happen? Through (by way of) sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

You are still saved by faith. No faith, no salvation.

Yeah No Salvation, No Faith, See Salvation precedes Faith, and Faith is the fruit/evidence of Salvation, particularly the Saving work of the Spirit, who applies the Salvation Christ obtained for the Elect.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Never ever?
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

You were chosen from the beginning for salvation. How would this happen? Through (by way of) sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

You are still saved by faith. No faith, no salvation.

That’s silly answer. If I say
we went to the bank, the store and home, it’s fairly clear the order. If I write, the new hospital will have surgery on the second floor, obgyn on the fourth and the lab on the ground floor, they aren’t built in that order. This is sort of obvious.

 

[Whatever]

That’s silly answer. If I say

You said something to me about insults. Here is the # 1 answer in the dictionary about silly

1. weak-minded or lacking good sense; stupid or foolish:

Don't know why, but insults just run off my back like water off a ducks. I just ignore them.

 

[crossnote]

It’s not just so we avoid hell.

Whoever said that?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You said something to me about insults. Here is the # 1 answer in the dictionary about silly

1. weak-minded or lacking good sense; stupid or foolish:

Don't know why, but insults just run off my back like water off a ducks. I just ignore them.

This is a good example of what I mean whenI say that Americans don’t know the difference between criticizing the person (ad hominem) and criticizing the argument (discussion.) Naming a argument as silly is not saying You are silly.

Now another thing, it’s become popular to use the rubber definition of words by quoting all the possible meanings it contains as though you can choose whatever definition suits your purposes NOT what the writer actually said. It’s becoming common and a way to avoid thinking about what was said. You are better than that, from my observation.

Lastly, no one insulted you so claiming the character high ground is empty. We can see if you really do respond that way when insulted. This was NOT one of those times.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Whoever said that?

You’re a calvinist. What are you saved from (since the foundation of the world?)

 

[crossnote]

You’re a calvinist. What are you saved from (since the foundation of the world?)

I see your trap.
We are saved from our sin, satan, this world, the flesh and trying to justify ourselves before God…not just avoiding hell. (Post #143)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I see your trap.
We are saved from our sin, satan, this world, the flesh and trying to justify ourselves before God…not just avoiding hell. (Post #143)

It’s not a trap, it’s a legitimate question.

Well, you’re deeper than many. No one but catholics and muslims try to justify themselves before God so you aren’t particularly saved from that. Atheists don’t do that either.
But you will stand before the judgement of christ and give an answer for your choices. That no man escapes.

But otherwise a good answer.

 

[crossnote]

It’s not a trap, it’s a legitimate question.

Well, you’re deeper than many. No one but catholics and muslims try to justify themselves before God so you aren’t particularly saved from that. Atheists don’t do that either.
But you will stand before the judgement of christ and give an answer for your choices. That no man escapes.

But otherwise a good answer.

All mankind try to justify themselves before God and others. Thanks for being my pseudo judge. My true Judge also died in my stead that I would not stand condemned.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

All mankind try to justify themselves before God and others.

No they don’t. Most don’t believe He is even there. Who here does this that you can point to? How do they word it?

Thanks for being my pseudo judge. My true Judge also died in my stead that I would not stand condemned.

Paul writes that we would all stand before Christ and give a account for the deeds done in the body whether good or bad. You can say uncomplimentary things to me because you don’t like that idea, but it would’ve better to be prepared.

 

[crossnote]

No they don’t. Most don’t believe He is even there. Who here does this that you can point to? How do they word it?

Speaking of the Gentiles, Paul says...

For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves; who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,
(Rom 2:14-15)

Paul writes that we would all stand before Christ and give a account for the deeds done in the body whether good or bad. You can say uncomplimentary things to me because you don’t like that idea, but it would’ve better to be prepared.

Romans 14:10 (KJV) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

In both cases this is the bayma seat of Christ (tribunal), not some type of final judgment. I thought we are carrying on a discussion, not some sort of judge-fest...unless you are referring to judging doctrine...then I plead guilty,

 

[electedbyHim]

Everyone left, what happened?