Total depravity?

[Dorothy Mae]

You haven't read enough.

Even before Jesus people believed in predestination. Josephus uses the word "fate"
Josephus Antiquities of the Jews. Book 13. 5.9

1. (171) At this time there were three sects among the Jews, who had different opinions concerning human actions; the one was called the sect of the Pharisees, another the sect of the Sadducees, and the other the sect of the Essenes. (172) Now for the Pharisees, they say that some actions, but not all, are the work of fate, and some of them are in our own power, and that they are liable to fate, but are not caused by fate. But the sect of the Essenes affirm, that fate governs all things, and that nothing befalls men but what is according to its determination. (173) And for the Sadducees, they take away fate, and say there is no such thing, and that the events of human affairs are not at its disposal; but they suppose that all our actions are in our own power, so that we are ourselves the cause of what is good, and receive what is evil from our own folly. However, I have given a more exact account of these opinions in the second book of the Jewish War.

In the 5th century St. Augustine taught it.
The German Martin Luther (1483-1546) taught it and wrote a book called "The Bondage of the Will"
Ulrich Zwingli started the Swiss Reformation in 1519, his teachings largely paralleled Luther’s.
Then in 1541 John Calvin was invited to Geneva and put his doctrine to practice.

The Muslims believe that too. And we are talking the 7th century. So do the Hindus to some degree. But the Essenes are not the church fathers nor are they even Christians. What does this have to do with the discussion that it was quite common for pagans and unbelievers to think that fate governs their lives? I do not deny that unbelievers in the One True God believe fate governs their lives.


Now notice in your post, that you do not have a believer before Augustine bringing up this teaching within the church. He was the first. From his false teaching that eased his conscience, it spread. I do not dispute it. But it stated with Augustine and the Essenes and Muslims and papans before Augustine believing this do not change that fact.


If any of the writers of the Bible believed this, they would have written so and not written so much about what we actually choose and do. Jesus said what comes out of the heart seen in words and deeds defile a man. Why not say it was fated as the Father decreed some to defile themselves and make it simple if that were the truth?

 

[Edward]

No, you should read them instead of ignoring them. The Calvinist read things not there and ignore the things there. Paul talks excessively about what people DO, their deeds, their choices and insist that none of this is true but we are all born as babies with a sin nature and cannot help our choices, its not our fault.

If I read and study real hard do you think that I too, could get a chip for my shoulder as big as yours?

 

[Edward]

Since your study so far has not enabled you to discern what is in the words others write, it is doubtful that any study will do any good at all. What you need to gain discernment is something altogether different. However, a quick look at a definition of what a chip on the shoulder is, that would be of benefit in this case. While you are at it, look up ad hominem, a response you tend to use when logic and reason fails you.

You are trying to be a teacher and talk to people like that? Normally when someone says something that you disagree with, most people will say well let's consider this scripture or that scripture, something like that.

But from you comes this condescending tone and no scriptures or even explaination.

Just, well you don't know, you are clueless, you should read. I think I'm beginning to understand why you are divorced.

Consider 1 Corinthians 13:2 before you post again. You didn't refute what I posted, you merely went ad homeneim on me, prolly cuz you didn't have a real answer.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You are trying to be a teacher and talk to people like that?

No, I am not a teacher. You have again not understood what was written.

Normally when someone says something that you disagree with, most people will say well let's consider this scripture or that scripture, something like that.

Like you did, accusing me of being angry? Was that an example of what you expect from others?

But from you comes this condescending tone and no scriptures or even explaination.

Ah, but I do use scripture. I weave it into my text. I do not always give a "heads up, scripture coming so DO NOT DISAGREE at all costs." What saying do you want scripture for? Why not do as you require of others, ask about scripture instead of personally insulting?

Just, well you don't know, you are clueless, you should read. I think I'm beginning to understand why you are divorced.

Where do you get that idea from?? That is really a new one. I have been happily married to my one first husband for over 30 years. Again, there is a gap between what I write and what you think.

Consider 1 Corinthians 13:2 before you post again. You didn't refute what I posted, you merely went ad homeneim on me, prolly cuz you didn't have a real answer.

Actually, you accused me of having a chip on my shoulder. Who went ad hoiminem to whom?

2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Do you think you were loving? Do you think the above "Im beginning to understand why you are divorced" is loving?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Edward,

Would you like an evaluation of Romans 2, leading up to Romans 3? I assure you, you will not like it.

But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.”a 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

Why wrath? Because of man's hard and unrepentant heart, not because God determined they will not be chosen.

What is the sentence after judgement based upon? Not being selected by God? No, God will repay each one according to HIS DEEDS.

Who gets eternal life? Those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality...

Who gets wrath and anger? Those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness.

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Greek.11For God does not show favoritism.

On what basis do different people experience different things? Based on those who do evil regardless of their heritage and those who do good, Jew first and then Greek. No favoritism with God so no selection of some and not others which is what favoritism is by definition.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.

So who are righteous before God? Those he preselected for Heaven and heard the Gospel? No, those who DO what God asks, (the law) who will be declared righteous.

That is probably enough. I am very sure no Calvinist likes any of the above. It is what the words say, however.

Now lest any of you accuse me of works salvation, we are saved by faith in Christ, written by the same guy who wrote the above. There is not a tension between these but it is clear these things written by Paul play a role, all of what Paul wrote.

 

[Edward]

No, I am not a teacher. You have again not understood what was written.

Like you did, accusing me of being angry? Was that an example of what you expect from others?

Ah, but I do use scripture. I weave it into my text. I do not always give a "heads up, scripture coming so DO NOT DISAGREE at all costs." What saying do you want scripture for? Why not do as you require of others, ask about scripture instead of personally insulting?

Where do you get that idea from?? That is really a new one. I have been happily married to my one first husband for over 30 years. Again, there is a gap between what I write and what you think.

Actually, you accused me of having a chip on my shoulder. Who went ad hoiminem to whom?

2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Do you think you were loving? Do you think the above "Im beginning to understand why you are divorced" is loving?

Oh calm down Dorothy. Where I'm from I aint used to women talking like you do sometimes. So that boy/girl thing kicks in and ribs the silly women a little bit. So don't be so thin skinned. I do sympathize with your Husband but he says you do make a wonderful sandwich!



I really wish you had even addressed my post to you that got us talking here, but you didn't and no scriptures either.I'm out. I don't wanna argue with you, too many tangents.

 

[Edward]

Edward,

Would you like an evaluation of Romans 2, leading up to Romans 3? I assure you, you will not like it.

But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.”a 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

Why wrath? Because of man's hard and unrepentant heart, not because God determined they will not be chosen.

What is the sentence after judgement based upon? Not being selected by God? No, God will repay each one according to HIS DEEDS.

Who gets eternal life? Those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality...

Who gets wrath and anger? Those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness.

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Greek.11For God does not show favoritism.

On what basis do different people experience different things? Based on those who do evil regardless of their heritage and those who do good, Jew first and then Greek. No favoritism with God so no selection of some and not others which is what favoritism is by definition.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.

So who are righteous before God? Those he preselected for Heaven and heard the Gospel? No, those who DO what God asks, (the law) who will be declared righteous.

That is probably enough. I am very sure no Calvinist likes any of the above. It is what the words say, however.

Now lest any of you accuse me of works salvation, we are saved by faith in Christ, written by the same guy who wrote the above. There is not a tension between these but it is clear these things written by Paul play a role, all of what Paul wrote.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Oh calm down Dorothy. Where I'm from I aint used to women talking like you do sometimes.

Again, you do not understand me. I am not excited. I actually find that you make me think and I enjoy that. So, except for your insults (you know WHY I am divorced and I am supposed to have a chip on my shoulder) I am rather enjoying the exchange. Makes me choose to respond in calmness instead of giving what I get.

But I am surely understand that most women do not talk like I do. That is very likely.

So that boy/girl thing kicks in and ribs the silly women a little bit. So don't be so thin skinned. I do sympathize with your Husband but he says you do make a wonderful sandwich!

I

It was not my husband that said that, I am afraid. We in Europe do not of make sandwiches as the Americans understand them to be.

And I am not the least bit silly. I do not like to counter that remark but suffice it to say, I am not the least bit silly.

I really wish you had even addressed my post to you that got us talking here, but you didn't and no scriptures either.I'm out. I don't wanna argue with you, too many tangents.

I did. I even laid out Romans 2 in detail. I really wish you would resurrect the post you think was left unaddressed. I do miss things from time to time. The truth is actually fairly complicated. I wouldn't call them tangents.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I laughed out loud. That was really funny!!!

 

[crossnote]

and no scriptures either.

An ongoing pattern from Dorothy Mae.

 

[Whatever]

The Muslims believe that too. And we are talking the 7th century. So do the Hindus to some degree. But the Essenes are not the church fathers nor are they even Christians.

But the Essenes were Jews, they had the OT Scriptures. You said this idea of predestination was not known before Calvin in the 1500's hinting that it was Calvin made it up.

 

[Whatever]

But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.”a 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

Don't see anything about free will there. They are paid according to their deeds. That works with predestination too.

What is the sentence after judgement based upon? Not being selected by God? No, God will repay each one according to HIS DEEDS.

Yes, repaid according to deeds that they were appointed to do.
1Pe_2:8 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

On what basis do different people experience different things? Based on those who do evil regardless of their heritage and those who do good, Jew first and then Greek. No favoritism with God so no selection of some and not others which is what favoritism is by definition.

Yes, God doesn't show favoritism on the basis of race. Both Jews and Gentiles will be judged by what they did. But this still does not prove autonomous free will.

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, that makes God a moral monster. That isn't what it means. You only read it that way because you follow Calvin.

That is probably enough. I am very sure no Calvinist likes any of the above. It is what the words say, however.

The words are fine. It is your autonomous free will presuppositions you add to them that we don't like. Not one verse said anything about free will, you just subconsciously read them into the passages.

 

[Edward]

Thank you Edward for your kind response. Now, on what tangent do we assume this is since childhood or earlier? Notice he was only describing himself, not claiming to describe the human race from infancy..../

It was post #90. And above is what you responded. You went off on a tangent, so yes, I edited it for clarification. And yes, it was a silly answer, Mamn.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Don't see anything about free will there. They are paid according to their deeds. That works with predestination too.

How can some choice be predestined and at the same time free will? Those are the opposite.

Yes, repaid according to deeds that they were appointed to do.
1Pe_2:8 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

That is so unjust it is unbelievable. The author of the Bible did not think they were appointed to be disobedient either. You have to add that.

Yes, God doesn't show favoritism on the basis of race. Both Jews and Gentiles will be judged by what they did. But this still does not prove autonomous free will.

God does not show favoritism. Predetermined is favoritism.

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

Hate to tell you this but Esau NEVER served Jacob. NEVER. Not one day. So now what?

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, that makes God a moral monster. That isn't what it means. You only read it that way because you follow Calvin.

No, I definitely do not follow Calvin. Not sure how you can say that after all I have written. That scripture does not say what you want. You have to pull out isolated verses.

The words are fine. It is your autonomous free will presuppositions you add to them that we don't like. Not one verse said anything about free will, you just subconsciously read them into the passages.

I add nothing to the scripture. It says judged based on deeds done. That is what it says. No verse about prechosen, predetermined, elected. Not one. If there is a just God, then men are judged based on what they DO, not based on what God decided before they were born.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It was post #90. And above is what you responded. You went off on a tangent, so yes, I edited it for clarification. And yes, it was a silly answer, Mamn.

That is not a silly answer. I am asking since WHEN are these things determined? From what time point?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What about Paul

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Where is this predetermined? Where is Paul saying EVERYONE is like this and so this is theology?

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

I actually think few christians delight in the law of God so I doubt many can really identify with this. One would have to delight in the law of God to understand what this was for him.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.../

When we born again, we were given a new spirit. The flesh has not been born again. The flesh is still corrupt.

How come Paul didn't write that his flesh was not born again? I have never heard of that. It is NO where in the Bible.

Did you know that Paul said at the end of his life that he had "finished his course" and was confident that he had pleased God with his life. This problem described above was no longer there at the end of his life.

Now this is a grown man talking. I asked you when this started and if it was in childhood that he had this struggle with sin. It was not silly.

 

[Edward]

How come Paul didn't write that his flesh was not born again? I have never heard of that. It is NO where in the Bible.

Anyone with eyes can see this. After you got born again and you went home and looked in the mirror, was it the same old you or had your flesh body beeen born again also?

You woke up in your prime again? I didn't. Paul didn't.

 

[Whatever]

How can some choice be predestined and at the same time free will? Those are the opposite.

Are you limiting God? God isn't intelligent enough that He can predestine acts that still come about by the person freely choosing that act? I know you and me can't do that. We can only build pre-programmed robots.

God does not show favoritism. Predetermined is favoritism.

If there is no election, nobody would be saved.
Mat 19:25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"
Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Hate to tell you this but Esau NEVER served Jacob. NEVER. Not one day. So now what?

Maybe God was talking in an allegory.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger."

Historically the Edomites, represented by Esau, were for a time the greater, and surpassed the Israelites in national and military development. Moses sent envoys to the king of Edom from Kadesh, asking permission to pass through his country, which was refused, and the Edomite army came out against Israel (Num_20:14-21). Later they were “vexed” by Saul (1Sa_14:47), and were conquered and made tributary by David (2Sa_8:14). Their strength was shown in their subsequent attempts to recover independence (2Ki_8:20, 2Ki_8:21; 2Ki_14:7; 2Ch_28:17). Their final subjugation was effected by John Hyrcanus, who incorporated them into the Jewish nation and compelled them to be circumcised.

No, I definitely do not follow Calvin. Not sure how you can say that after all I have written

I don't think I said that. I know you don't follow Calvin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Are you limiting God? God isn't intelligent enough that He can predestine acts that still come about by the person freely choosing that act?

Good is the opposite of evil and I don’t “limit God” by saying that. Free is the opposite of forced and we don’t “limit God” by acknowledging that. I know this argument and what it actually says is turn off your mind when it comes to understanding God and embrace mutually exclusive positions. Those who turn off their minds when it comes to understanding God will not soon after be able to love Him with that shut down mind.

I know you and me can't do that. We can only build pre-programmed robots.

We are made in his image. Opposites are not suddenly no longer opposites just because Gods is the subject.

If there is no election, nobody would be saved.

That’s not scripture. The scripture is closer to, if there is no resurrection nobody would be saved.

Mat 19:25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"
Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

He was talking about the rich people having a hard time becoming saved. Jesus didn’t mean God can force the rich to be saved. He has ways of persuasion even for the rich, but he doesn’t force, not even the rich.

Maybe God was talking in an allegory.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said to her: "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger."

Think about the first words…two NATIONS…. He was referring to their descendants, not the boys.

Historically the Edomites, represented by Esau, were for a time the greater, and surpassed the Israelites in national and military development. Moses sent envoys to the king of Edom from Kadesh, asking permission to pass through his country, which was refused, and the Edomite army came out against Israel (Num_20:14-21). Later they were “vexed” by Saul (1Sa_14:47), and were conquered and made tributary by David (2Sa_8:14). Their strength was shown in their subsequent attempts to recover independence (2Ki_8:20, 2Ki_8:21; 2Ki_14:7; 2Ch_28:17). Their final subjugation was effected by John Hyrcanus, who incorporated them into the Jewish nation and compelled them to be circumcised.

Perfect! Thank you! We see the fulfillment. I didn’t know that so I appreciate your input.

I don't think I said that. I know you don't follow Calvin.

You did but probably inadvertently. No matter.

 

[crossnote]

He was talking about the rich people having a hard time becoming saved. Jesus didn’t mean God can force the rich to be saved. He has ways of persuasion even for the rich, but he doesn’t force, not even the rich.

I wonder if this is just coincidence...

1 Corinthians 1:26 (KJV) For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: