Total depravity?

[Dorothy Mae]

Anyone with eyes can see this. After you got born again and you went home and looked in the mirror, was it the same old you or had your flesh body beeen born again also?

You woke up in your prime again? I didn't. Paul didn't.

The word “flesh” means the physical body which is fearfully and wonderfully made and the passions we engaged in unrighteously that ensnared us. The body will die and Paul was not speaking there if arms and legs which are good. He was obviously speaking of his passions which he had.

 

[brightfame52]

The word “flesh” means the physical body which is fearfully and wonderfully made and the passions we engaged in unrighteously that ensnared us. The body will die and Paul was not speaking there if arms and legs which are good. He was obviously speaking of his passions which he had.

Flesh means more than that. The flesh also means an evil principle that wars against spirituality Gal 5:17

7 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Rom 7 18

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 8:3

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If you would have looked the word flesh up you would have found it means:

he flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

Read Rom 8:3 again, Paul calls it sinful flesh !

 

[Whatever]

That’s not scripture. The scripture is closer to, if there is no resurrection nobody would be saved.

Nah. the resurrection only happened because there were elect to be saved. Remember, God sent His Son so that everyone believing might not perish but be saved.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His . . .

Joh 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

This is the will of the Father who sent Jesus so that everyone believing shall be raised up at the last day (resurrection)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Nah. the resurrection only happened because there were elect to be saved. Remember, God sent His Son so that everyone believing might not perish but be saved.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His . . .

Joh 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

This is the will of the Father who sent Jesus so that everyone believing shall be raised up at the last day (resurrection)

Paul writes “if there is no resurrection then our faith is in vain.”

 

[Whatever]

Paul writes “if there is no resurrection then our faith is in vain.”

Yes. but there is only a resurrection because Jesus came first and died for everyone believing. Yes, the resurrection was necessary, but it would not have happened if the Father had not sent the Son in the first place.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes. but there is only a resurrection because Jesus came first and died for everyone believing. Yes, the resurrection was necessary, but it would not have happened if the Father had not sent the Son in the first place.

I guess I don’t deal in speculation that’s not the way the writers of the Bible thought. The predestination doctrine adds to scripture speculating what happens before one believes. “If God didn’t do xzy, then abc wouldn’t have occurred.” I don’t see any of them thinking like that. I don’t see Jesus thinking like that except when He told them what he was going to do. That’s not speculating on what others or God did.

The foundation of our faith is the Resurrection in Paul’s thinking. Other prophets of God lived and died, only Jesus was resurrected.

 

[brightfame52]

whatever

Nah. the resurrection only happened because there were elect to be saved.

Yes, and the resurrection of Christ was a testification that the people who Christ died for, died for their sins, that they were Justified before Gods Law and Justice Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

That word Justification is the greek word dikaiōsis:

1. the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2. abjuring to be righteous, justification

Thats what the resurrection of Christ means, everyone of the elect whose sins have been put away, are free from guilt and acceptable to God !

 

[crossnote]

I guess I don’t deal in speculation that’s not the way the writers of the Bible thought. The predestination doctrine adds to scripture speculating what happens before one believes. “If God didn’t do xzy, then abc wouldn’t have occurred.” I don’t see any of them thinking like that. I don’t see Jesus thinking like that except when He told them what he was going to do. That’s not speculating on what others or God did.

Do you mind 'dealing' with these two passages without 'speculating'?...

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Eph 1:5)
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(Eph 1:11)

 

[Whatever]

I don’t see any of them thinking like that. I don’t see Jesus thinking like that

Mat 11:21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Mat 11:23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day

 

[electedbyHim]

I wonder if this is just coincidence...

1 Corinthians 1:26 (KJV) For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brothers, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble.
1Co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may abolish the things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no flesh may boast before God.

 

[crossnote]

1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brothers, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble.
1Co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may abolish the things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no flesh may boast before God.

Thanks, I was just trying to make it easy on Dorothy by quoting just one verse.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Mat 11:21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

That’s not saying that if God hadn’t done xyz then there wouldn’t have been abc and there wouldn’t have been jkl as you were doing. Yes, if men had repented there wouldn’t have been punishment. Also, if men repent there won’t be or isn’t punishment. That’s one of the ways of God that is still true.

Mat 11:23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day

Same. This is not making an endless list of ifs going way back as you were doing. This is still true and observable.

Our faith, according to Paul, is useless if the resurrection did not occur. That is how he thought. One can conform one’s thinking to the Word or conform the Word to one’s thinking.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Do you mind 'dealing' with these two passages without 'speculating'?...

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Eph 1:5)
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(Eph 1:11)

“as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined usb for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7”

What were the followers of Christ predestined for?

Heaven? not mentioned
Salvation? not mentioned
To become holy and blameless? Yes, that’s the goal
We are predestined you become a certain kind of people.


“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him”

Were we predestined to believe? No, Paul said that they heard the word and they believed. That is the key. They chose to believe.

Predestined applies to the one plan in the mind of God before the foundation of the world, that man should be holy and blameless like Jesus.

Do you see that this fits all the words in those verses?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brothers, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble.
1Co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may abolish the things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no flesh may boast before God.

Thanks for not bombarding us with reams of scriptures as some do.

Now what do you think these have to do with the discussion? Do you think “God chooses the foolish THINGS” means He chooses foolish people?

Let’s test this in real life. Does God choose foolish people in particular? I assure you, Paul, CS Lewis, AW Tozer, Wesley, Luther, Newton, and many more were not foolish by any stretch of the imagination.

And we are not things.

What are “things” that appear foolish to the “wise?” The cross, the resurrection, life after death, believing in God/Christ. Just talk to atheists about these matters and they’ll often laugh in your face despising these matters. And many consider those who profess belief in such weak. These are the “foolish” things and elsewhere the Bible says this. Shall I find the exact references for you or does this ring a bell?

 

[Whatever]

hat’s not saying that if God hadn’t done xyz then there wouldn’t have been abc and there wouldn’t have been jkl as you were doing. Yes, if men had repented there wouldn’t have been punishment. Also, if men repent there won’t be or isn’t punishment. That’s one of the ways of God that is still true.

Now you are just obfuscating. You said Jesus didn't speculate. I showed you where He did just that.

 

[Whatever]

hat’s not saying that if God hadn’t done xyz then there wouldn’t have been abc and there wouldn’t have been jkl as you were doing. Yes, if men had repented there wouldn’t have been punishment. Also, if men repent there won’t be or isn’t punishment. That’s one of the ways of God that is still true.

Now you are just obfuscating. You said Jesus didn't speculate. I showed you where He did just that.

What were the followers of Christ predestined for?

Heaven? not mentioned
Salvation? not mentioned
To become holy and blameless? Yes, that’s the goal
We are predestined you become a certain kind of people.

Heaven not mentioned? Salvation not mentioned? Like I said, you are a hyper literalist. If X isn't mentioned in one text, then it is not there.

these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

What do you think justification and glorification mean?

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

2 Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[Whatever]

Were we predestined to believe? No, Paul said that they heard the word and they believed. That is the key. They chose to believe.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Notice the true progression: Chosen for salvation-> through sanctification by the Spirit -> then faith.
Your view: faith first, -> then sanctification by the Spirit

 

[crossnote]

“as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined usb for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7”

What were the followers of Christ predestined for?

Heaven? not mentioned
Salvation? not mentioned
To become holy and blameless? Yes, that’s the goal
We are predestined you become a certain kind of people.


“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him”

Were we predestined to believe? No, Paul said that they heard the word and they believed. That is the key. They chose to believe.

Predestined applies to the one plan in the mind of God before the foundation of the world, that man should be holy and blameless like Jesus.

Do you see that this fits all the words in those verses?

You seemed to overlook this phrase in v.5..."for adoption to himself as sons"...a certain kind of people? yes. But thank you for your 'speculation'.

My point being, you are no more freer from the speculation you accuse others of.

 

[brightfame52]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Notice the true progression: Chosen for salvation-> through sanctification by the Spirit -> then faith.
Your view: faith first, -> then sanctification by the Spirit

Yes, and the elect were predestinated to believe because they were predestinated to the adoption of sons Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The word children here is yhiothesia , its a compound word tithēmi and yhios which means:
a son 85 times in the NT and sons of God are identified as those who have faith in Jesus Christ Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children/sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

So they were predestinated to faith in Christ, to believe upon His Name.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Now you are just obfuscating. You said Jesus didn't speculate. I showed you where He did just that.

No he didn’t speculate. The principle holds today. Repent and God will forgive. That’s not speculation.