Under Grace not Under Law

[MCoop]

ok i think i see what you are saying

so we all agree that we are saved by grace through faith not of works - Ephesians 2:8-9

some of us believe we must continue in the faith to stay saved - Colossians 1:22-23 - and some of us believe that we can't become unsaved once we are saved - Romans 11:29 - 2 Timothy 1:9 - 1 John 5:11-12

some of us believe works is a sign that we have faith and lack of works is a sign that we don't have genuine faith James 2:18

so the issue is about having a salvation that can be lost vs a secure salvation that can't be annulled?

God Bless you my friend

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Thank you. Lk.13:3: "I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Salvation is conditional. I do not follow your point in on Gal.3:28.
My suggestion was not intended for you solely but for any who hold your position.
Respectfully.

I gathered your remarks were for all here. This is an open discussion not that which is a one on one debate in that one on one debate forum.
I think you're misunderstanding conditional in that context. Perhaps it is the confusion generated by that which introduced Universalism into this thread in order to start their own discourse.

Repentance and faith are inseparable. This may help you understand further. Again, I offer this article because I appear to be very poor at explaining the Good News of my own knowledge of scriptures. An independent resource may better assist. "...It is crucially important that we understand repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Himself (John 6:44). Acts 5:31 and 11:18 indicate that repentance is something God gives—it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God's longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).

While repentance is not a work that earns salvation, repentance unto salvation does result in works. It is impossible to truly and fully change your mind without that causing a change in action. In the Bible, repentance results in a change in behavior. That is why John the Baptist called people to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8). A person who has truly repented from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ will give evidence of a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:19-23; James 2:14-26). Repentance, properly defined, is necessary for salvation. Biblical repentance is changing your mind about Jesus Christ and turning to God in faith for salvation (Acts 3:19). Turning from sin is not the definition of repentance, but it is one of the results of genuine, faith-based repentance towards the Lord Jesus Christ."
What is repentance and is it necessary for salvation?

 

[MCoop]

ok i think i see what you are saying

so we all agree that we are saved by grace through faith not of works - Ephesians 2:8-9

some of us believe we must continue in the faith to stay saved - Colossians 1:22-23 - and some of us believe that we can't become unsaved once we are saved - Romans 11:29 - 2 Timothy 1:9 - 1 John 5:11-12

some of us believe works is a sign that we have faith and lack of works is a sign that we don't have genuine faith James 2:18

so the issue is about having a salvation that can be lost vs a secure salvation that can't be annulled?

God Bless you my friend

The issue is if salvation can be lost. And if one is in the camp you can, then how do they believe Ephesians 2:8-9?

 

[MCoop]

Unconditional election is one thing
Unconditional salvation is another.

Unconditional election results in unconditional salvation

 

[Papyrus_dust]

imo losing faith or backsliding is not enough to lose salvation as per 2 Timothy 2:13 - Praise God that He is faithful when we are not - 2 Timothy 2:11-13

but imo there can be a rare person who disowns Jesus - wants nothing more to do with Jesus - and this person (rare as he may be) renounces/gives up his salvation purposefully and with full knowledge of what he is doing - with hateful intent you might say - 2 Timothy 2:12 - this rare person is the only one that can't be brought again to repentence because this time he rejected Christ with deep intent and full knowledge/awareness/in his clear mind - Hebrews 6:4-8 - not someone who was decieved or not in his full right mind - 2 Timothy 2:13

As mentioned previously those persons are what are described in the passage 1 John 2:19.
No, of course not everyone who says they are a Christian actually are. Matthew 7. That is why we are told we shall know who are in Christ by their fruits. By how they act and what they demonstrate when claiming to be Christ like. Matthew 7, Matthew 13,Matthew 24.

The works we do as Christians don't keep us in God's grace and retain his gift of Salvation. Our behavior, because at times "works" can be confusing, demonstrates we are in Christ and are indwelt by the holy spirit. We don't work to get saved. However, our behaviors after we say we are saved is what shows proof we are led by God's spirit. Not the former spirit within us that was leading toward satisfaction of the carnal, the flesh, the ego, and the pride.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

The issue is if salvation can be lost. And if one is in the camp you can, then how do they believe Ephesians 2:8-9?

Well said.
I would add, what scripture counters Romans 11:29?"For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."

We don't work to be saved. We do good works because we are saved.

 

[Truthfrees]

The issue is if salvation can be lost. And if one is in the camp you can, then how do they believe Ephesians 2:8-9?

i don't think it can be lost - like it slips away against someone's will - iow they want to be saved but they have a problem with sin let's say and struggle to get free - this person can't lose their salvation - this person needs the grace and power of God to make it and God promises that Jesus is the author and perfector of their faith and they WILL make it - Hebrews 12:2 - Philippians 1:6 - Romans 14:4

but i think there might be a person who hatefully renounces Jesus and can't be brought back to repentence - 2 Timothy 2:12 - Hebrews 6:4-8 - i personally have not met this kind of person so this is only my best understanding of these scriptures about the impossibility of a certain type of person to be brought AGAIN to repentence

 

[Truthfrees]

Well said.
I would add, what scripture counters Romans 11:29?"For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."

We don't work to be saved. We do good works because we are saved.

amen

 

[billybalke]

I gathered your remarks were for all here. This is an open discussion not that which is a one on one debate in that one on one debate forum.
I think you're misunderstanding conditional in that context. Perhaps it is the confusion generated by that which introduced Universalism into this thread in order to start their own discourse.

Repentance and faith are inseparable. This may help you understand further. Again, I offer this article because I appear to be very poor at explaining the Good News of my own knowledge of scriptures. An independent resource may better assist. "...It is crucially important that we understand repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Himself (John 6:44). Acts 5:31 and 11:18 indicate that repentance is something God gives—it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God's longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).

While repentance is not a work that earns salvation, repentance unto salvation does result in works. It is impossible to truly and fully change your mind without that causing a change in action. In the Bible, repentance results in a change in behavior. That is why John the Baptist called people to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8). A person who has truly repented from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ will give evidence of a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:19-23; James 2:14-26). Repentance, properly defined, is necessary for salvation. Biblical repentance is changing your mind about Jesus Christ and turning to God in faith for salvation (Acts 3:19). Turning from sin is not the definition of repentance, but it is one of the results of genuine, faith-based repentance towards the Lord Jesus Christ."
What is repentance and is it necessary for salvation?

I gathered your remarks were for all here. This is an open discussion not that which is a one on one debate in that one on one debate forum.
I think you're misunderstanding conditional in that context. Perhaps it is the confusion generated by that which introduced Universalism into this thread in order to start their own discourse.

Repentance and faith are inseparable. This may help you understand further. Again, I offer this article because I appear to be very poor at explaining the Good News of my own knowledge of scriptures. An independent resource may better assist. "...It is crucially important that we understand repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Himself (John 6:44). Acts 5:31 and 11:18 indicate that repentance is something God gives—it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God's longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).

While repentance is not a work that earns salvation, repentance unto salvation does result in works. It is impossible to truly and fully change your mind without that causing a change in action. In the Bible, repentance results in a change in behavior. That is why John the Baptist called people to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8). A person who has truly repented from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ will give evidence of a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:19-23; James 2:14-26). Repentance, properly defined, is necessary for salvation. Biblical repentance is changing your mind about Jesus Christ and turning to God in faith for salvation (Acts 3:19). Turning from sin is not the definition of repentance, but it is one of the results of genuine, faith-based repentance towards the Lord Jesus Christ."
What is repentance and is it necessary for salvation?

The one on one is my suggestion.

 

[Truthfrees]

As mentioned previously those persons are what are described in the passage 1 John 2:19.

good scripture - i like 1 John 2:19 and Matthew 7:21-23

but how do you interpret Hebrews 6:4-8 that says they have tasted of the heavenly gift - imo the Holy Spirit - and the powers to come - the gifts of the Spirit - and 2 Timothy 2:12 saying if someone disowns Jesus - meaning they at one time owned Jesus - and then they choose to disown Jesus that Jesus will disown them?

does that fit into 1 John 2:19? hmmm thinking

 

[Papyrus_dust]

i don't think it can be lost - like it slips away against someone's will - iow they want to be saved but they have a problem with sin let's say and struggle to get free - this person can't lose their salvation - this person needs the grace and power of God to make it and God promises that Jesus is the author and perfector of their faith and they WILL make it - Hebrews 12:2 - Philippians 1:6 - Romans 14:4

but i think there might be a person who renounces Jesus and can't be brought back to repentence - 2 Timothy 2:12 - Hebrews 6:4-8 - i personally have not met this kind of person so this is only my best understanding of these scriptures about the impossibility of a certain type of person to be brought AGAIN to repentence

Hebrews 10:26. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins is left.


1 John 3:8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil can be distinguished: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Again, as the prior scripture says even of those who were considered at the time to be Disciples of Christ. Disciple meaning student.
Some Disciple's who walked with the Christ, can you imagine doing that and hearing him speak in his day? Some of those Disciples left Jesus and the Disciples. And what was said of them? Again according to that prior scripture posted just above, they went out from Jesus because they were not one with Jesus.

We are not able to judge who is known to God as the sheep of Christ and who is not to the degree that God would. Of course. God calls whom he will to his son. Romans 8. No one comes to God but through Jesus. John 6:44, John 14:6

Perhaps that is why on our human plane we're able to discern only by how those who profess Christ behave. (Know them by their fruits)

Those who walk away from God, as those Disciples in the scripture did, are not in Christ. As the scripture relates concerning the Apostles that did that very thing. God knows whom he calls to his son. No one can fake it when it comes to God's knowledge of who are in his grace and who are not.

Those who are in his grace, we are told, are saved eternally. God's gifts are irrevocable. Grace and Salvation are God's gifts.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

good scripture - i like 1 John 2:19 and Matthew 7:21-23

but how do you interpret Hebrews 6:4-8 that says they have tasted of the heavenly gift - imo the Holy Spirit - and the powers to come - the gifts of the Spirit - and 2 Timothy 2:12 saying if someone disowns Jesus - meaning they at one time owned Jesus - and then they choose to disown Jesus that Jesus will disown them?

does that fit into 1 John 2:19? hmmm thinking

2-Timothy 2:13
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

That's referring to what we've already shared together. Matthew 7. Those who deny Christ, unbelievers, those who are not actually in Christ though they bear the name Christian. Just as in the prior referenced scripture. There are true and false Disciples. God is not fooled.
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Truthfrees]

Hebrews 10:26. For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins is left.

amen - Hebrews 10:26 and 1 John 3:8 is someone who is deliberately sinning - but scripture also talks about those caught in sin and are trying to get free which is a different kind of person - Galatians 6:1 - Jude 1:23

 

[Papyrus_dust]

amen - Hebrews 10:26 is someone who is deliberately sinning - but scripture also talks about those caught in sin and are trying to get free which is a different kind of person - Galatians 6:1 - Jude 1:23

Yes, those scriptures would be better understood by reading the full chapter.

 

[Truthfrees]

1 John 5:16-17 also discusses 2 kinds of sin - a sin unto death and a sin not unto death

 

[Jim Parker]

The issue is if salvation can be lost. And if one is in the camp you can, then how do they believe Ephesians 2:8-9?

Salvation cannot be lost. Salvation is freedom from physical death. All of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1Cor 15:42ff) Death has been abolished (1Ti 1:10) so nobody will stay dead. All of mankind is saved from the grave.

Eternal life CAN be lost. Eternal life is dependent upon whether or not you do the good works which God created specifically for you that you make them you constant manner of life. (the next verse; Eph 2:10)

And I see that it is almost a universal error by Christians to conflate the two concepts.
Salvation from death which is the wages of sin: universal.
Eternal life: only to those who are obedient to Christ.

Using Ephesians 2:8-9 as a "proof text" is an example of the error of picking and choosing which verses a person will use to support his personal opinion.
When Ephesians 2:8-9 was written, Paul did not put any chapter and verse numbers. Those were not added until the 1500s and were inserted for the sole purpose of assisting people in finding passages.
Ephesians 2:8 -9 does not contain the entire thought which Paul was putting forth.
Quoting that is essentially quoting half the truth.
And half the truth can easily be twisted into a falsehood.
In this case the falsehood is that a "saved" person cannot loose their salvation.
Which many people, due to their practice of conflating salvation with eternal life, are confused on this point.

Will someone be saved from the grave and physical death no matter what he does? Absolutely.
Will someone have eternal life no matter what he does? Definitely not. Only those who are obedient to the LORD and do the good works for which God created them to do will inherit eternal life.

And someone who is a believer and is doing those good works but then decides to go back to his old ways of doing the works of the flesh will not be granted eternal life. He will earn the 2nd death. (Eze 19:24)

You have been saved from the grave being your permanent residence. Nothing can change that.
You will attain to eternal life if you do your best to obey the Lord.
You will not attain to eternal life if you ignore His commands to love God, love one another, love your neighbor and even love your enemies.

and that's MY personal opinion.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

i don't think it can be lost - like it slips away against someone's will - iow they want to be saved but they have a problem with sin let's say and struggle to get free - this person can't lose their salvation - this person needs the grace and power of God to make it and God promises that Jesus is the author and perfector of their faith and they WILL make it - Hebrews 12:2 - Philippians 1:6 - Romans 14:4

but i think there might be a person who hatefully renounces Jesus and can't be brought back to repentence - 2 Timothy 2:12 - Hebrews 6:4-8 - i personally have not met this kind of person so this is only my best understanding of these scriptures about the impossibility of a certain type of person to be brought AGAIN to repentence

I have met at least one person who believed and, after years of faithfulness, just changed his mind an walked away.
It wasn't a "hateful" renunciation; he just quit believing.

 

[Truthfrees]

Yes, those scriptures would be better understood by reading the full chapter.

yes i will do some more reading and praying - just sharing what i see in scripture at this point - so your point is that anyone who is lost and unable to come AGAIN to repentence is someone who never knew Christ - was never saved? - Hebrews 6:4-8

 

[Truthfrees]

I have met at least one person who believed and, after years of faithfulness, just changed his mind an walked away.
It wasn't a "hateful" renunciation; he just quit believing.

yes - i met those kind of people too - but they returned eventually

and these kind of people didn't disown Jesus - they just lost their faith due to some misunderstanding with or about God

 

[JLB]

Scripture please to support your proclamation.
Please post the scripture that God revokes his gifts. Thank you in advance.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

The condition by which we have everlasting life is believe.


JLB