Was Paul Heretical in Teaching Sinless Perfection?

[Hopeful 2]

We are meant to rightly divide the word of truth. You are missing the meaning 90% of the time. You look but cannot see.

I see the things God has given us so we can walk in the light, Him, all the time.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2
No, if you can read you can understand these scriptures.
I am going to assume you have some kondike belief of sinlessness and these scriptures simply and clearly proves that belief in error. So you really do not have a good response.

What is a "kondlike" belief ?

Did Jesus commit any sin ?
No ?
The living without sin is possible !
God has given us everything Jesus had, so we too can walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".

 

[electedbyHim]

It was hard for me to reckon, until the Lord showed me that only some of the verses applied to those who walk in the light, (5,7,9),and only some of the verses applied to those who walk in the dark. (6,8,10)
Sinners, those walking in darkness, cannot honestly say they have no sin.
But if all our sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, (7), how can we NOT say "we have no sin" ?
(Just as only some of the verses of Rom 8 apply to those who walk in the Spirit, and only some of the verses apply to those who walk in the "flesh".)

The Lord showed you?

How did the Lord show you?

 

[electedbyHim]

You never answered.....


Hopeful 2

No, I wouldn't.
Some of Rom 7 is a narrative of Paul's past.

Verses 14-24 are part of Paul's narrative of his past.

Yes, he did concur with the Law of God in his inner man, even though he couldn't manifest it because of the law of sin he felt was in his members.
I am glad Paul wrote the cure for the "law of sin" in Rom 8:2, proving again that it was from his preconversion experience.
Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

It can make you free of it too.
Click to expand...

Was Paul saved or unsaved in Romans 7:14-25?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2



Was Paul saved or unsaved in Romans 7:14-25?

He was converted when he wrote it, but it was ABOU his time before his conversion.
"When we were in the flesh..." (Rom 7:5)
He is referencing the past with that verse, and he goes on to illustrate his failures, and why he was failing, while under the Law and "in the flesh".

 

[Hopeful 2]

You can't name a single Christian minister, pastor, church, denomination, congregation on earth who believes your:

"Look God at what a good little boy I can claim to be exclusively on the internet where no one has ever known or met me theology"

I divide my attendance between a Conservative branch of the Lutheran Church and a Baptist Church.
What church do you attend ?
Or are you to afraid to say ?

Yes I can.
I am not the only one on earth that the Lord has made righteous by His suffering, death, and resurrection.
I am of "The Church By Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)".

 

[Hopeful 2]

We as born again baptized Christians have no need of getting baptized every time we sin.

If "we sin" again after the remission of our past sins, it proves our repentance from sin was not real.
Therefore, "we" were still sinners that God has never heard. (John 9:31)

As we all can plainly see, John never mentions getting baptized by simply confessing our sins.

True, but more sins mean we had not repented of sin.
There are no unrepentant Christians.
Our first baptism was a sham.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

I am glad we don't have to walk in darkness-sin anymore.
Now we can walk in the light, in Whom is no sin !
Verses 6,8,&10 apply to those who walk in sin-darkness.

We, us, ourselves, our and us refers to John and the Christians he is writing to.

IF we walk in darkness, we can neither say we have fellowship with God or that we have no sin.
Walk in the light instead !

Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins…

• he is the propitiation for our sins:

And for the sins of the whole world !

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2

Thanks be to God !
But why stop at verse 2 ?
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

We have the opportunity to be either a keeper of His commandments, or a liar.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes,
I am 99 % sure he'll say he attends no church, and if by small chance he says he does it will be some sort of one off church with no affiliates, minus any posted, verifiable church statement of Belief.

The church I am a part of is named in the bible.
Is yours ?

 

[electedbyHim]

He was converted when he wrote it, but it was ABOU his time before his conversion.
"When we were in the flesh..." (Rom 7:5)
He is referencing the past with that verse, and he goes on to illustrate his failures, and why he was failing, while under the Law and "in the flesh".

That is not accurate. I believe Free pointed that out as well.

Paul was not speaking in the past of the verses I asked you about.

Romans 7:20-21 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Then you have completely misunderstood everything I have said

You are in effect saying: we cannot obey God while here in earth.
I don't agree.

We'll be perfect once we are in heaven with Christ; it is nowhere stated that we can achieve that beforehand.

God made a way so we don't have to replicate the OT Jewish faith.
Sin, repent; sin, repent; sin, repent...adnauseum.
What hope was there in that ?
With rebirth, which without no man shall see heaven, we can have the divine nature God wants us to have.

That's what occurs when one is justified, yes, but afterward we still need to confess those sins we commit daily.

Are you saying you are not justified ?
If you are still walking in darkness-sin, it is time to REALLY repent of sin.

Of course. I have never said otherwise.

You don't seem to understand that walking in sin, (still in the flesh), is walking in darkness.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

That surprises me !
Can you tell the difference between those who love God, and those who hate Him ?

Context, context, context.

The "flesh" you cite as the reason for sinning, can be destroyed at its "immersion" into Christ and His death and burial. (Rom 6:6)
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

Believers are not in the flesh, that is, we don't "live according to the flesh" and "set [our] minds on the things of the flesh" (Rom 8:5).

That is correct !
So who is doing the sin ?
Not those walking in and after the Spirit.
Those still in the "flesh"!

Again, like John, Paul is referring to those who lives are characterized by living in the flesh. Paul then says that believers are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit" (v. 9). However, Paul clearly talks about his own struggles, and hence all believers' struggles, against the flesh in Rom. 7. Notice the culmination of his struggles:

If one neve stops sinning, stops walking in the "flesh", their life is characterized by sin.

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. (ESV)

The narrative is over.
Paul announces his now present state of "mind over "flesh".

So, he's clearly serving both God and sin. Becoming justified gives us power of sin through the Holy Spirit, but it never once is said to mean that we are now sinless and never sin. John is clear that only unbelievers claim to be sinless.

That would make Jesus a liar.
He said no man can serve two masters, in Matt 6:24.

1Co 3:1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
1Co 3:3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? (ESV)
Notice that Paul is speaking to believers--"brothers" and "infants in Christ"--who are behaving as people of the flesh, "behaving in only a human way." They are sinning through "jealousy and strife." That is the choice that believers, and only believers, have--to sin or not sin.

He can't address them as Spiritual people.
They are still in the "flesh" !

Your question and statements here suggest that you're not even trying to understand what I'm saying.

I understand perfectly that you are legitimizing sin in the believers.
Am I wrong ?

We are essentially no different than the Israelites.

Agrees, but Jesus made a way for man to be so much better than the sinners.

They saw the miraculous power of God, leading them by a pillars of cloud and fire, providing food and water in the desert, and doing all sorts of things to their enemies, etc. Yet, the very moment the going got tough, they grumbled and turned to other gods.

That is the pattern the sinners are still following !
God made a way to live without sin, and men went out of his way to include sinning in their doctrines.

And, so, believers likewise grumble and worry when we feel God is absent.

Not the real believers.

We lie to each other, even if we justify it by saying it's only a "little white lie." We gossip, calling it being concerned or saying it's just so someone else knows what to pray for. We do all those things Paul lists in his letter to Colossae and elsewhere. But a true believer will feel conviction and turn to God and confess their sins, seeking God's forgiveness.

A true believer would have believed Paul's list and refrained from sin.
You are describing those that walk in and after the "flesh".

So, yes, we can choose to not sin

The rest of your post is moot, after that confession.

but we often don't, because we all still struggle with temptation and with the flesh. How can that be "a waste of the suffering and death of the Savior"? Believers are first justified and made alive in Christ through his suffering and death. He then dwells in us through the Holy Spirit, who gives us the power to overcome temptation and the ability to choose not to sin. When we do sin and confess, Jesus is our advocate before the Father and his blood "cleanses us from all sin . . . from all unrighteousness."

He will, in the end, present us holy and blameless before the Father, which could never be done without his suffering and death and the power of the Holy Spirit.

If you think that Jesus's suffering and death and the power of the Spirit only mean something if we are perfectly sinless now, then you've missed most of what the NT says.


It should decrease it for those who understand.


Why is it revealing? What do you think it says that is relevant to this discussion?


So, now you're acknowledging that believers can sin? Which is it, can believers still sin are they sinless? Or, do you think that one is a "brother" if they have yet not initially repented and been baptized, if they are not walking in the light and Spirit? That, too, is an idea found nowhere in the Bible. Either one is justified and walking in the Spirit, and so is a brother or sister, or they are not.


Again, you seem to not be trying to understand what I'm saying. I have never said that one "must commit sin."

 

[Hopeful 2]

Again, context. Notice what Paul has already just stated:

Col 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
Col 1:10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
...
Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
...
Col 1:28 Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. (ESV)

Notice the progression of this introduction. First, Paul and Timothy pray that the believers at Colossae "may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding." Why? So that they "walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him." This likely hints at the reason, or one of the reasons, for his letter.

Second, if they "continue in the faith," they will be able to be presented "holy and blameless and above reproach before him." So, there clearly is something they have to continue to do in order to be presented "holy and blameless." Third, why should Paul and Timothy be warning believers? What are they to be warning believers of? Does one warn others of good things, such as already being perfectly sinless? That would make no sense. One warns of danger, such as not living the faith as believers should be living, which would be committing sin.

Fourth, the same Greek word can be translated as "perfect," "mature," or "complete." Given the above context, it is could easily be translated as "mature" or "complete" as that fits with what Paul writes in verse 9. It we take it as "perfect," it would be in reference to when they stand before Christ. But notice that Paul doesn't say they are perfect now, it is clearly implied that it is something yet to be accomplished.

So, what is the issue? Look at chapter 2:

Col 2:6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,
Col 2:7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
...
Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
Col 2:20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—
Col 2:21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”
Col 2:22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings?
Col 2:23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh. (ESV)

First, why the need to remind these believers to walk in Christ, if they are already perfect and walking in the light, as you keep saying? Second, we see that the reason for writing appears to be that there were teachings in the Colossae church that were based on "philosophy and empty deceit," "human tradition," and "elemental spirits of the world," which clearly were "not according to Christ." This is supported by verse 20, where Paul goes further and states that these believers were actually submitting "to regulations," as though they "were still alive in the world" despite having "died to the elemental spirits of the world."

Third, more than that, these "human precepts and teachings" that they were submitting to, have "no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh." Why would Paul mention that these human teachings have "no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh"? We see that in the next chapter:

Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Col 3:7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. (ESV)

Verses 3 and 4 make it clear that he is addressing believers. So, why in verse 3 is Paul telling these believers to "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you," if, as you claim, that has already been done completely and all believers are perfectly sinless? Notice the list of things that these believers were doing: "sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry."

More than just those, see what else Paul tells these believers to put away: "anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth." He then tells them "Do not lie to one another." Why? Because they "have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self." Clearly, all of that shows that Paul was addressing believers, and that these believers were not perfectly sinless. How could that be, if, as you claim, all believers are perfectly sinless?

The answer is in verse 10--"the new self" of each believer "is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator," which is what I have been saying. That is the process of sanctification and growing in holiness. And, how is that done? The answer was given in verses 1 and 2:

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. (ESV)

There is more that could be said just on this letter, but that suffices to show your position simply cannot account for much of what the NT states. Context is king and context makes shows that sinless perfection is not only never taught, but it is clearly taught that believers still struggle with sin while we are being renewed and growing in holiness.

Why ignore Paul's last verse just to go through the progression ?
The last verse is the entire reason he is writing !
To present every man perfect.
You are ignoring the forest because of one tree .

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Lord showed you?

How did the Lord show you?

He just made it clear to me one day while I was asking for His help with it.

 

[electedbyHim]

He just made it clear to me one day while I was asking for His help with it.

Are you sure you are not praying to yourself and answering yourself?

After all, you are sinless and that means you are like God. No?

 

[Grailhunter]

It was hard for me to reckon, until the Lord showed me that only some of the verses applied to those who walk in the light, (5,7,9),and only some of the verses applied to those who walk in the dark. (6,8,10)
Sinners, those walking in darkness, cannot honestly say they have no sin.
But if all our sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, (7), how can we NOT say "we have no sin" ?
(Just as only some of the verses of Rom 8 apply to those who walk in the Spirit, and only some of the verses apply to those who walk in the "flesh".)

I don't think you understand the process of salvation....for one.
You have been provided with plenty of scriptures to make the truth clear.
You just do not want to believe the truth.
And that is pretty much my final word....because I do not like repeating myself.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You never answered.....


Hopeful 2



Was Paul saved or unsaved in Romans 7:14-25?

I have answered it.
Due to time zones, and I'm sure other factors, we don't all start here at the same time.
Ohio is 2 time zones away from me.
Another poster is from Taiwan !

 

[electedbyHim]

I have answered it.
Due to time zones, and I'm sure other factors, we don't all start here at the same time.
Ohio is 2 time zones away from me.
Another poster is from Taiwan !

You quoted Romans 7:5

Paul was not speaking in the past of the verses I asked you about.

Romans 7:20-21 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

 

[Grailhunter]

What is a "kondlike" belief ?

The belief that you can be sinless is way out there....kondike

Did Jesus commit any sin ?

You are not a God....Yeshua is a God.

The living without sin is possible !
God has given us everything Jesus had, so we too can walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".

No there is no sinless human.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That is not accurate. I believe Free pointed that out as well.

You don't think he was converted when he wrote it ?
I do.

Paul was not speaking in the past of the verses I asked you about.

I'm pretty sure he was no longer walking in the "flesh" when he wrote about his time in the "flesh".

Romans 7:20-21 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

Yep, that is from his narrative of his past while still in the "flesh", and not yet in the Spirit.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Are you sure you are not praying to yourself and answering yourself?

Why would I ask myself for help in something I didn't know ?

After all, you are sinless and that means you are like God. No?

Being obedient to God doesn't translate into knowing all that God knows.
Even Jesus didn't know all that God knows.

 

[electedbyHim]

You don't think he was converted when he wrote it ?
I do.

I'm pretty sure he was no longer walking in the "flesh" when he wrote about his time in the "flesh".

Yep, that is from his narrative of his past while still in the "flesh", and not yet in the Spirit.

Paul was a Christian in Romans 7:14-25.

You twist the scriptures to suit your narrative. You use the word narrative a lot in your posts.

There is no convincing you, you are set in your ways, not the Lords ways.