Was Paul Heretical in Teaching Sinless Perfection?

[Hopeful 2]

I don't think you understand the process of salvation....for one.
You have been provided with plenty of scriptures to make the truth clear.
You just do not want to believe the truth.
And that is pretty much my final word....because I do not like repeating myself.

If I didn't understand the doctrine, I couldn't obey God.
1 Hear the words of life.
2 Repent of sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins.
2a At the same time be sanctified and justified by the atoning blood of my Savior.
2b And crucify/destroy the "flesh" with its vile affections and lusts, and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life/rebirth !
Now I continue in the last step...enduring faithfully until the end.
Did I miss anything ?

BTW, the truth can make you free from sinning. (John 8:32-34)

 

[Hopeful 2]

You quoted Romans 7:5

Yep, a reference to the past that he is about to illustrate.

Paul was not speaking in the past of the verses I asked you about.
Romans 7:20-21 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

He is writing in the present-narrative.
From a perspective of still being there.

If you take a couple of minutes to look at,,,
https://www.google.com/search?q=pre...yMjQ5MWowajmoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 you will familiarize yourself with Paul's method.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The belief that you can be sinless is way out there....kondike

I have never hear that expression before.

You are not a God....Yeshua is a God

You are correct...
It is written..."It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?" (Matt 10:25)

No there is no sinless human.

Jesus comes to mind...
He was and is our example.
As the devil has lots of examples of how he wants us to walk, thankfully, God has given us an example too !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Paul was a Christian in Romans 7:14-25.

He was when he wrote it.
But it is about his past.

You twist the scriptures to suit your narrative. You use the word narrative a lot in your posts.

No twisting in necessary, when preaching righteousness.

There is no convincing you, you are set in your ways, not the Lords ways.

Are His "ways" sinful ?
No, I didn't think so...

Did youcsheck the site about present narrtive writing ?

 

[electedbyHim]

Yep, a reference to the past that he is about to illustrate.

He is writing in the present-narrative.
From a perspective of still being there.

If you take a couple of minutes to look at,,,
https://www.google.com/search?q=pre...yMjQ5MWowajmoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 you will familiarize yourself with Paul's method.

Yep, a reference to the past that he is about to illustrate.

He is writing in the present-narrative.
From a perspective of still being there.

If you take a couple of minutes to look at,,,
https://www.google.com/search?q=pre...yMjQ5MWowajmoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 you will familiarize yourself with Paul's method.

I looked at this.

I am no English major (have you read my grammar), but I will go with well established men of God.

Paul's use of present tense verbs in verses Rom_7:14-25 strongly supports the idea that he is describing his life currently as a Christian. For those reasons, it seems certain that chapter 7 describes a believer. However, of those who agree that this is a believer, there is still disagreement. Some see a carnal, fleshly Christian; others a legalistic Christian, frustrated by his feeble attempts in his own power to please God by keeping the Mosaic Law. But the personal pronoun "I" refers to the apostle Paul, a standard of spiritual health and maturity. So in verses Rom_7:14-25, Paul must be describing all Christians—even the most spiritual and mature—who, when they honestly evaluate themselves against the righteous standard of God's law, realize how far short they fall. He does so in a series of four laments (Rom_7:14-17, Rom_7:18-20, Rom_7:21-23, Rom_7:24-25).

 

[electedbyHim]

Beginning in Romans 7:14 Paul begins to discuss the conflict of two natures. This section has been one of the most controversial in the New Testament. The majority of commentators (e.g., John MacArthur, John Piper, Warren Wiersbe, S Lewis Johnson, Robert Mounce, Harry Ironside, Donald Barnhouse, Albert Barnes, William MacDonald, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Melanchthon, Beza, John Owen, Delitzsch, Hodge, Shedd, Kuyper, F F Bruce, and C E Cranfield, et al) favor this to be a description of a regenerate man (Paul) wrestling with the sinful propensities still present in his mortal body as it is in every saved person. Others feel Paul is discussing his unsaved state prior to conversion. Some feel the text addresses the experience of any man, whether saved or unsaved, who seeks to obey the law.

One other point that should be made is that the spiritual conflict in Romans 7:14-25 although having some similarities to the conflict in Galatians 5:16-23, nevertheless does have differences as summarized below…

(1) The opponent of the sinful human nature in Romans 7 is the whole Christian individual, but in Galatians 5 it is the Holy Spirit.

(2) The condition of the believer in Romans is under the Law, but in Galatians it is under Law or grace.

(3) The result of the conflict in Romans is inevitable defeat, but in Galatians it is defeat or victory.

(4) The nature of the conflict in Romans is abnormal Christian experience, but in Galatians it is normal Christian experience. (See Stanley D. Toussaint's analysis “The Contrast Between the Spiritual Conflict in Romans 7 and Galatians 5, ” Bibliotheca Sacra 123:492, 1966)

Lewis Sperry Chafer adds that "In Romans 7:15-25 the conflict is between the regenerate man (hypothetically contemplated as acting independently, or apart from the indwelling Spirit) and his flesh. It is not between the Holy Spirit and the flesh. Probably there is no more subtle delusion common among believers than the supposition that the saved man, if he tries hard enough, can, on the basis of the fact that he is regenerate, overcome the flesh. The result of this struggle on the part of the Apostle was defeat to the extent that he became a wretched man.

 

[Grailhunter]

If I didn't understand the doctrine, I couldn't obey God.
1 Hear the words of life.
2 Repent of sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins.
2a At the same time be sanctified and justified by the atoning blood of my Savior.
2b And crucify/destroy the "flesh" with its vile affections and lusts, and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life/rebirth !
Now I continue in the last step...enduring faithfully until the end.
Did I miss anything ?

BTW, the truth can make you free from sinning. (John 8:32-34)

Looks pretty good except you think you are a god. The list of sinless beings Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit....end of list period. Delusions of grandeur. You will not convince to many here of sinless humans much less that you are sinless.

 

[electedbyHim]

Romans 7:14-25
F. F. Bruce - In this section Paul continues to speak in the first person singular, but he leaves the past tense and uses the present. Not only so, but there is an inward tension here which was absent from Romans 7:7-13. There, sin assaulted him by stealth and struck him down; here, he puts up an agonizing resistance, even if he cannot beat down the enemy. There, he described what happened to him when he lived in 'this present age'; here, 'the age to come' has already arrived, although the old age has not yet passed away. He is a man living simultaneously on two planes, eagerly longing to live a life in keeping with the higher plane, but sadly aware of the strength of indwelling sin that keeps on pulling him down to the lower plane.

 

[electedbyHim]

@Hopeful 2

Do you grieve over sin?

Do you have any guilt?

I mean is your conscience seared.

The only people I know that have no sin and deny sin are the unregenerate.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus comes to mind...

Jehovah's Witness?
No J's in the scriptures Yahweh, Yeshua, Yames, Yob, Yacob Yoshua,Yerusalem, Yericho, etc
You keep comparing Yeshua with humans....Yeshua and humans are not in the same category.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I looked at this.

I am no English major (have you read my grammar), but I will go with well established men of God.

Your "men of God" are promoting sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

One other point that should be made is that the spiritual conflict in Romans 7:14-25 although having some similarities to the conflict in Galatians 5:16-23, nevertheless does have differences as summarized below…





Lewis Sperry Chafer adds that "In Romans 7:15-25 the conflict is between the regenerate man (hypothetically contemplated as acting independently, or apart from the indwelling Spirit) and his flesh. It is not between the Holy Spirit and the flesh. Probably there is no more subtle delusion common among believers than the supposition that the saved man, if he tries hard enough, can, on the basis of the fact that he is regenerate, overcome the flesh. The result of this struggle on the part of the Apostle was defeat to the extent that he became a wretched man.

Two natures ?
EEEK !
The split personality doctrine !
Not of God !

 

[Hopeful 2]

@Hopeful 2

Do you grieve over sin?

I did when I was still a sinner and my grief was of the flesh.

Do you have any guilt?

Only for the things I did before my death and rebirth.

I mean is your conscience seared.

At one time it was, and it led me to a real repentance from sin !

The only people I know that have no sin and deny sin are the unregenerate.

If they are unregenerated, they have all the sins of their past lives in the "flesh".
God has provided them an advocate so they can permanently leave the trail of death.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jehovah's Witness?

Me?
No.

No J's in the scriptures Yahweh, Yeshua, Yames, Yob, Yacob Yoshua,Yerusalem, Yericho, etc
You keep comparing Yeshua with humans....Yeshua and humans are not in the same category.

Certainly not the unregenerated humans.
Of those who have been reborn of God's seed, however, "He is not ashamed to call them brethren." (Heb 2:11)

 

[Grailhunter]

Me?
No.

Certainly not the unregenerated humans.
Of those who have been reborn of God's seed, however, "He is not ashamed to call them brethren." (Heb 2:11)

See post 97

 

[electedbyHim]

Your "men of God" are promoting sin.

Ha, too funny.

 

[electedbyHim]

I did when I was still a sinner and my grief was of the flesh.

Only for the things I did before my death and rebirth.

At one time it was, and it led me to a real repentance from sin !

If they are unregenerated, they have all the sins of their past lives in the "flesh".
God has provided them an advocate so they can permanently leave the trail of death.

I did when I was still a sinner and my grief was of the flesh.​

You grieved over your sin as an unbeliever?

 

[Consecrated Life]

I divide my attendance between a Conservative branch of the Lutheran Church and a Baptist Church.
What church do you attend ?
Or are you to afraid to say ?

Yes I can.
I am not the only one on earth that the Lord has made righteous by His suffering, death, and resurrection.
I am of "The Church By Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)".

Jesus was not afraid to speak boldly of his gathering with people, eyeball to eyeball, to have Godly communion with them & to name the places of worship where He met with people.
All Christians are commanded to do in His Word.
I divide my assembling with the brethren between a conservative branch of the Lutheran Church and a Baptist Church.
In what church do you assemble yourself face to face with the brethren, as His Word commands you to do ?

Heb 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is

Luk 4:16
..... and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 22:53
When I was daily with you in the temple....

 

[JLB]

If "we sin" again after the remission of our past sins, it proves our repentance from sin was not real.
Therefore, "we" were still sinners that God has never heard. (John 9:31)

Unfortunately for your “theory”, the actual scriptures teach us that we as God’s people, born again Christians, must confess our sins to be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10


John does not contradict himself from the Gospel of John to 1 John.

As we see from John 9:31 John most certainly doesn’t say what you claim.


Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. John 9:31

No where in this passage or in any other passage of scripture does it say ”your words” …. If "we sin" again after the remission of our past sins, it proves our repentance from sin was not real.


We already have discovered that you have deceived yourself, because that is what the scriptures warn us about people like you who claim that they are sinless and perfect, and therefore have no need to confess their sins.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
• If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

We have just witnessed that the truth is not coming from you because you said - quote -

If "we sin" again after the remission of our past sins, it proves our repentance from sin was not real.

And you “tagged” your statement with John 9:31.

As we see, John 9:31 never says any such thing.

Therefore we see the truth is not in you… You have deceived yourself and are seeking to spread your deception in this Forum.



JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Looks pretty good except you think you are a god.

Are you joking ?

The list of sinless beings Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit....end of list period.

You forgot all the people who were freed from sin by the suffering, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Delusions of grandeur. You will not convince to many here of sinless humans much less that you are sinless.

It is written...“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
Jesus commanded the possible.

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
Jesus prayed it would be accomplished.

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
Paul says how it is accomplished.

I don't care what people think of me, as long as they really turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their past sins, and endure faithfully until the end.