Was Paul Heretical in Teaching Sinless Perfection?

[Hopeful 2]

Ha, too funny.

Too sad.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You grieved over your sin as an unbeliever?

Yes, and would have done anything to quit my sins.
God heard my prayers, and gave me all I needed to make it happen.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Jesus I know did not have a yellow streak down his back .
He was not afraid to speak boldly of his gathering with people, eyeball to eyeball, to have Godly communion with them & to name the places of worship where He met with people.
As all Christians are commanded to do in His Word.
Unless of course they are to cowardly to do so.
I divide my assembling with the brethren between a conservative branch of the Lutheran Church and a Baptist Church.
In what church do you assemble yourself face to face with the brethren, as His Word commands you to do ?
Or are you still to ashamed, afraid to do so, as the manner of some is

Heb 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is

Luk 4:16
..... and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 22:53
When I was daily with you in the temple....

I answered this already.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Unfortunately for your “theory”, the actual scriptures teach us that we as God’s people, born again Christians, must confess our sins to be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.

You are saying that God's seed can bring forth the devil's fruit. (1 John 3:9-10)
I cannot agree.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

If we have been "cleansed of all unrighteousness", why can't we say we have no sin ?

John does not contradict himself from the Gospel of John to 1 John.

Agreed.

As we see from John 9:31 John most certainly doesn’t say what you claim.
Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. John 9:31

Nice of you to post MY rebuttal.
God does not hear sinners.
Peter agrees with 1 Peter 3:12..."For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil."

No where in this passage or in any other passage of scripture does it say ”your words” …. If "we sin" again after the remission of our past sins, it proves our repentance from sin was not real.

Common sense says that if you turn from something but return to it again, the original turn was false.
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Cor 7:10)
The sorrow you seem to refer to is of the world.
Broken promises to God warrant destruction.

We already have discovered that you have deceived yourself, because that is what the scriptures warn us about people like you who claim that they are sinless and perfect, and therefore have no need to confess their sins.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
• If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Thank God I was able to confess my sins and get washed of them by the blood of Christ.
Having done that, I can say I have no sin.
There is no sin in God, who is the light, and in Whom I now walk.

We have just witnessed that the truth is not coming from you because you said - quote -
If "we sin" again after the remission of our past sins, it proves our repentance from sin was not real.
And you “tagged” your statement with John 9:31.
As we see, John 9:31 never says any such thing.
Therefore we see the truth is not in you… You have deceived yourself and are seeking to spread your deception in this Forum.

You should reread John 9:31.
"Now we know that God heareth not sinners..."

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Jesus I know did not have a yellow streak down his back .
He was not afraid to speak boldly of his gathering with people, eyeball to eyeball, to have Godly communion with them & to name the places of worship where He met with people.
As all Christians are commanded to do in His Word.
Unless of course they are to cowardly to do so.
I divide my assembling with the brethren between a conservative branch of the Lutheran Church and a Baptist Church.
In what church do you assemble yourself face to face with the brethren, as His Word commands you to do ?
Or are you still to ashamed, afraid to do so, as the manner of some is

Heb 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is

Luk 4:16
..... and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 22:53
When I was daily with you in the temple....
are you to afraid to say ?

An English 101 course to help understand past , present, future tense would be money well spent for you.

This is present tense:
Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

If it were past tense as your limited English skills & woeful Spiritual discernment finds you claiming it was, it would substitute these words to indicate past tense.

Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelled (for dwelleth) no good thing: for to will was (for is) present with me; but how to perform that which is good I found (for find) not.

Words mean things Junior , write that down.

Posts that denigrate the character or intelligence of other members are not tolerated on this forum. Any further remarks like the above from ANYONE involved in this thread will result in a thread ban, and stronger disciplinary action if they continue.

If there are any problems with that, take it up with staff.

 

[Grailhunter]

Are you joking ?

You forgot all the people who were freed from sin by the suffering, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is written...“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
Jesus commanded the possible.

“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
Jesus prayed it would be accomplished.

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
Paul says how it is accomplished.

I don't care what people think of me, as long as they really turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their past sins, and endure faithfully until the end.

The errors in your beliefs are explained in posts 23, 27, and 35.

Beyond that it is basic common sense that if humanity had any capacity for perfection or sinlessness Yahweh would not have had to send His Son to go through what He did.

But if it is just weirdness that floats your boat the Calvinists believe we are biological robots and all of reality is an orchestrated play for God to watch. And just like you they can find scriptures to support their beliefs.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Yeshua was just a good guy.

The Mormons are a great people and they have a wonderful imagination about Christ taking his ministry to South America.

The Pope just announced that they are going to start blessing same sex marriages….tolerant to fault? But they believe you have to be sexless to be in service to the Lord.

They are not real popular now but there was a group called the Shakers and shaking was the way.

But none of these beliefs are silly enough to think you cannot sin or that there is a possibility of sinless humans.

Then again if klondike is what ya like, show some imagination. With all this stuff about alien abduction going on…you could come up with a belief that Yahweh was an alien and He adducted Miriam in the space vehicle in Ezekiel and impregnated her and so Yeshua was half human and half alien.

And He preached that you had to hate your mother and father to be a Christian and the Bread and Wine ritual made you perfect and you could walk on water. And wisdom is not good because with wisdom is much vexation, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18 But he did not like children because He believed how blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock. Psalm 137:9

And when Yeshua ascended He did it in a time traveling flying saucer and went to the 15th century when the letter J was first introduced and got bags of J’s to take back to the biblical era for them to use. And when He returns He will beam all his loyal follows up in his flying saucer called Rapture. And you could call your religion Heaven’s Gate.

At least that would show some imagination and have an entertainment value.

 

[JLB]

1Ti 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief

Paul is saying he is the chief of all the sinners Christ came to save.

Of all the sinners Christ came to save Paul was at the top, he was the chief.


Of course when a person becomes saved, they are no longer a sinner, but a saint; a holy one.

A sinner by definition is a person who is separated from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
Hebrews 7:26


A saint, a child of God is joined to Christ and are one spirit with Him.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17



When we become saved and are joined to Christ we are no longer a sinner.






JLB

 

[JLB]

You are saying that God's seed can bring forth the devil's fruit. (1 John 3:9-10)
I cannot agree.

As John as already pointed out, you have deceived yourself, and the truth is not in you because you say you have no sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9

Your flesh is not born again, but your spirit.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


Your flesh still produces the desire for sin, and was born of flesh.

Your false claim that our flesh is born again of God’s seed is error.




JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

Paul is saying he is the chief of all the sinners Christ came to save.

Of all the sinners Christ came to save Paul was at the top, he was the chief.


Of course when a person becomes saved, they are no longer a sinner, but a saint; a holy one.

A sinner by definition is a person who is separated from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
Hebrews 7:26


A saint, a child of God is joined to Christ and are one spirit with Him.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17



When we become saved and are joined to Christ we are no longer a sinner.






JLB

Yet that fact remains that daily we still retain our sin nature, live each day in the realm of sin, will be tested daily by sin,
and will still fall into sin on occasion.
Peter does not give us his dire warning because being saved in Christ we have nothing to worry about where sin is concerned.
Peter gives his warning because he knew full well we still retain a propensity to sin in our flesh and can fall victim to it.
Even with salvation assured to us we can still suffer greatly in the flesh from sin should we let our guard down, or foolishly think the ability to sin has been stripped from our flesh.

1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

[GodsGrace]

Yet that fact remains that daily we still retain our sin nature, live each day in the realm of sin, will be tested daily by sin,
and will still fall into sin on occasion.
Peter does not give us his dire warning because being saved in Christ we have nothing to worry about where sin is concerned.
Peter gives his warning because he knew full well we still retain a propensity to sin in our flesh and can fall victim to it.
Even with salvation assured to us we can still suffer greatly in the flesh from sin should we let our guard down, or foolishly think the ability to sin has been stripped from our flesh.

1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Do you believe the sin nature has the same power as before salvation,
or do you believe it has been put under submission?

Some believe we no longer have the sin nature after salvation.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Do you believe the sin nature has the same power as before salvation,
or do you believe it has been put under submission?

Some believe we no longer have the sin nature after salvation.

For me , I firmly believe what Peter who is with the Lord today in heaven & who lived , walked, ate, slept, with the Lord for 3 three years on earth has said regarding our still being, not as susceptible as we once were, but still susceptible to Satan's attacks which are only increased after our salvation.
1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.

Wondering,
Do you believe Satan is more interested in attacking a saved person, from whom he is powerless to take their salvation from, than an unsaved person ?
Do you know why ?

 

[GodsGrace]

For me , I firmly believe what Peter who is with the Lord today in heaven & who lived , walked, ate, slept, with the Lord for 3 three years on earth has said regarding our still being, not as susceptible as we once were, but still susceptible to Satan's attacks which are only increased after our salvation.
1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.

I agree. We have the sin nature under submission, but it is not discarded.
This will explain why we still sin at times.

Wondering,
Do you believe Satan is more interested in attacking a saved person, from whom he is powerless to take their salvation from, than an unsaved person ?
Do you know why ?

I believe satan attacks everyone but he'll have more luck with an unsaved person.
He is evil incarnate and we all get sick.
We also are all tempted by sin.

But the unsaved will fall into his trap easily...he makes sin sound so good when, in reality, it ruins persons.
Also, they aren't depending on God for strength or they don't even believe he exists, so they're more prone to follow the temptation.

As to taking of salvation....I don't believe one is saved unconditionally and forever....
so no OSAS for me. Satan can certainly take our salvation away if we don't hold fast to our faith.
Paul warned about this in many verses.

An unsaved person already has no salvation.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I believe satan attacks everyone but he'll have more luck with an unsaved person.

But the unsaved will fall into his trap easily..

An unsaved person already has no salvation.

Wondering, you are contradicting yourself here .

An unsaved person already has no salvation and is hell doomed you are right.
Consequently Satan does not need any "luck" with the unsaved to make them lost.
They have arrived & are already his at that point.
The only thing that can change that is if the unsaved becomes saved .
This then is the paramount focus of Satan's attack, that which causes an unsaved person to become a saved person.
Which is what ???

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering, you are contradicting yourself here .

An unsaved person already has no salvation and is hell doomed you are right.
Consequently Satan does not need any "luck" with the unsaved to make them lost.
They have arrived & are already his at that point.
The only thing that can change that is if the unsaved becomes saved .
This then is paramount focus of Satan's attack, that which causes an unsaved person to become a saved person.
Which is what ???

Maybe I wasn't clear.
Without reading what I posted again, here is what I mean:

As far as sinning is concerned, satan will have more luck with the unsaved.
His victory/luck is making persons sin....and the unsaved will certainly sin more.

As far as salvation is concerned, he'll have more luck with the saved...
because the unsaved are already lost.
So if he can get a saved person to become unsaved, that would be his Victory/good luck.

 

[Consecrated Life]

As far as salvation is concerned, he'll have more luck with the saved...
So if he can get a saved person to become unsaved, that would be his Victory/good luck.

Having gone back to this more than once in our conversation it is obvious you seem to be quite focused on this idea of a saved person becomes unsaved ?
Do you know of any passage where Jesus described this happening to a person?
Because I don't

 

[Hopeful 2]

The errors in your beliefs are explained in posts 23, 27, and 35.

Did I not rebut every notion brought against the Lord's doctrine which is according to Godliness ?

Beyond that it is basic common sense that if humanity had any capacity for perfection or sinlessness Yahweh would not have had to send His Son to go through what He did.

"Classic humanity" walked after the flesh.
The newly reborn walk after the Spirit.
Are you different ?

But if it is just weirdness that floats your boat the Calvinists believe we are biological robots and all of reality is an orchestrated play for God to watch. And just like you they can find scriptures to support their beliefs.

Man can only bring forth the fruit of its progenitor.
The repentant are reborn from God's seed.
It cannot bear liars, thieves, murderers, or adulterers.
Are you different ?

The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Yeshua was just a good guy.
The Mormons are a great people and they have a wonderful imagination about Christ taking his ministry to South America.

If you want to know the real source of their doctrines and lives, ask them if the commit sin.
Are you different ?

The Pope just announced that they are going to start blessing same sex marriages….tolerant to fault? But they believe you have to be sexless to be in service to the Lord.

Godless leaders leading Godless people.
Are you different ?

They are not real popular now but there was a group called the Shakers and shaking was the way.

Are you different ?

But none of these beliefs are silly enough to think you cannot sin or that there is a possibility of sinless humans.

So you agree with the above.
OK, but I warned you.

Then again if klondike is what ya like, show some imagination. With all this stuff about alien abduction going on…you could come up with a belief that Yahweh was an alien and He adducted Miriam in the space vehicle in Ezekiel and impregnated her and so Yeshua was half human and half alien.

Had Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, or James ever spoken of the Klondike, it would be wise to follow along.
But they only spoke and wrote of the great victory the Lord Jesus Christ won over the devil and over sin.
It would be wise to follow along.

And He preached that you had to hate your mother and father to be a Christian

Not exactly.

and the Bread and Wine ritual made you perfect and you could walk on water.

Not that I am aware of.

And wisdom is not good because with wisdom is much vexation, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18 But he did not like children because He believed how blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock. Psalm 137:9

If you are trying to illustrate your feeling for God and His Son, just say it.

And when Yeshua ascended He did it in a time traveling flying saucer and went to the 15th century when the letter J was first introduced and got bags of J’s to take back to the biblical era for them to use. And when He returns He will beam all his loyal follows up in his flying saucer called Rapture. And you could call your religion Heaven’s Gate.

At least that would show some imagination and have an entertainment value.

Entertainment won't free man from destruction.
Only repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost can,
Thanks be to God !

 

[GodsGrace]

Having gone back to this more than once in our conversation it is obvious you seem to be quite focused on this idea of a saved person becomes unsaved ?
Do you know of any passage where Jesus described this happening to a person?
Because I don't

Of course a person can forfeit their salvation.
But this would derail.
Start a thread in Apologetics if you wish to discuss this and tag me in.

 

[Hopeful 2]

As John as already pointed out, you have deceived yourself, and the truth is not in you because you say you have no sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9

You would be right, if I walked in darkness-sin.
But I walk in thelight-God...in Whom is no darkness-sin.
So could you if you would repent of sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission fo your past sins.
God will then give you the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide and teach you.
You don't need to remain in darkness defending sin.

Your flesh is not born again, but your spirit.

2 Cor 5:17 says differently..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Or, you could go back to where Jesus said to cut off your hand and pluck out your eye if your skin and bones are offending you.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

The reborn are reborn of THE Spirit.

Your flesh still produces the desire for sin, and was born of flesh.

Don't you believe Gal 5:24 ?
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Are you opining that either Paul is wrong, or that the flesh's crucifixion was insufficient to start us walking in and after the Spirit ?

Your false claim that our flesh is born again of God’s seed is error.

Your adherence to your own error keeps you in sin.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Of course a person can forfeit their salvation.
But this would derail.
Start a thread in Apologetics if you wish to discuss this and tag me in.

I started a thread in apologetics .
I'm not familiar with the "tag" someone in option

 

[GodsGrace]

I started a thread in apologetics .
I'm not familiar with the "tag" someone in option

OK
but you just use the @ sign and then immediately after you write in the name.