What is "GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS"

[childeye]

I came back to this thread today and it has turned into a discussion of faith vs. works. Forgive my selfish tendency, but I am not particulary fond of that topic because of the divisions that occurs over misunderstandings. As such I believe we are now left only arguing semantics in futility. Faith is dead without following through in what you believe. That is simple enough to understand. Why call me Lord and not do what I say?

I would hope it is also understandable that when Paul talks about righteousness not coming through works but by faith alone, he is refering to the works of the law. And when James says men are not justified by faith alone but by works, he is not refering to the works of the law as Paul does, but to works of faith.

Having righteousness and being justified are also two different things, and so also are works of the law and works of faith. So respectfully, am I going overboard by requesting we not waste our time debating semantics and delving in what I perceive as confusion?

 

[rrowell]

Having righteousness and being justified are also two different things, and so also are works of the law and works of faith. So respectfully, am I going overboard by requesting we not waste our time debating semantics and delving in what I perceive as confusion?

If one cannot be justified in Gods sight, how can one be righteous?

Therefore Gods Righteousness must include the justifying "obedient works" that make one Righteous.

 

[Adullam]

I came back to this thread today and it has turned into a discussion of faith vs. works. Forgive my selfish tendency, but I am not particulary fond of that topic because of the divisions that occurs over misunderstandings. As such I believe we are now left only arguing semantics in futility. Faith is dead without following through in what you believe. That is simple enough to understand. Why call me Lord and not do what I say?

I would hope it is also understandable that when Paul talks about righteousness not coming through works but by faith alone, he is refering to the works of the law. And when James says men are not justified by faith alone but by works, he is not refering to the works of the law as Paul does, but to works of faith.

Having righteousness and being justified are also two different things, and so also are works of the law and works of faith. So respectfully, am I going overboard by requesting we not waste our time debating semantics and delving in what I perceive as confusion?

Very true about the distinction between works of the law (like circumcision) and the works of faith!

Having righteousness and being justified are the same however. Justice and righteousness are synonyms. A just man is a righteous man. In other languages the word for righteousness IS justice.

 

[childeye]

If one cannot be justified in Gods sight, how can one be righteous?

Therefore Gods Righteousness must include the justifying "obedient works" that make one Righteous.

I understand your reasoning. I respectfully ask that you consider that if a man sins out of ignorance of God, he is justified and is found to be righteous when he forgives those who tresspassed against him because of the same ignorance of God. Let all men be liars that God be true says scripture. God has declared all men sinners. Therefore the man who confesses himself a liar and a sinner is justified and righteous before God.

For I see the Christ upon the cross interceding on behalf of those who crucify him, saying forgive them they know not what they do. Hence when I believe this must be the son of God because he does this, I am agreeing that Jesus is correct for interceding. And therefore when I intercede on behalf of my enemies after the same manner I also am justified. Consider that Jesus says to the Pharisees, had you said you were blind you would have no sin, but because you say "we see" your sin remains. For had they said we don't see and treated others likewise, they would have been justified.

So also I am reiterating what Paul means when he says we are justified freely by His grace. And also no man is justified by the works of the law, for the law can only condemn the sinner and God has said we are all sinners.

 

[Adullam]

I understand your reasoning. I respectfully ask that you consider that if a man sins out of ignorance of God, he is justified and is found to be righteous when he forgives those who tresspassed against him because of the same ignorance of God. Let all men be liars that God be true says scripture. God has declared all men sinners. Therefore the man who confesses himself a liar and a sinner is justified and righteous before God.

For I see the Christ upon the cross interceding on behalf of those who crucify him, saying forgive them they know not what they do. Hence when I believe this must be the son of God because he does this, I am agreeing that Jesus is correct for interceding. And therefore when I intercede on behalf of my enemies after the same manner I also am justified. Consider that Jesus says to the Pharisees, had you said you were blind you would have no sin, but because you say "we see" your sin remains. For had they said we don't see and treated others likewise, they would have been justified.

So also I am reiterating what Paul means when he says we are justified freely by His grace. And also no man is justified by the works of the law, for the law can only condemn the sinner and God has said we are all sinners.

You are seeing the difference between 2 different levels of righteousness (justice). There is what can be done by humans..and what God can do. But both relate to righteousness. There are 2 great commandments and each has a righteousness of it's own.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I came back to this thread today and it has turned into a discussion of faith vs. works. Forgive my selfish tendency, but I am not particulary fond of that topic because of the divisions that occurs over misunderstandings. As such I believe we are now left only arguing semantics in futility. Faith is dead without following through in what you believe. That is simple enough to understand. Why call me Lord and not do what I say?

I would hope it is also understandable that when Paul talks about righteousness not coming through works but by faith alone, he is refering to the works of the law. And when James says men are not justified by faith alone but by works, he is not refering to the works of the law as Paul does, but to works of faith.

Having righteousness and being justified are also two different things, and so also are works of the law and works of faith. So respectfully, am I going overboard by requesting we not waste our time debating semantics and delving in what I perceive as confusion?

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."


The above verse is what this thread has been centered around. This verse is not pitting faith vs works (for faith is a work) but the verse is contrasting two different types of works. The verse speaks of one work that does not save and one work that does save.

The two types of works found in this verse are :

1) "going about to establish their own righteousness"
2) "submitting themselves unto God's righteousness".

#1 is the work that does not save but was the work which the Jews were doing. The work in #2 does save but it was the work the Jews were NOT doing and why they were lost per verse 1.

 

[Adullam]

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."


The above verse is what this thread has been centered around. This verse is not pitting faith vs works (for faith is a work) but the verse is contrasting two different type of works. The verse speaks of one work that does not save and one work that does save.

The two types of works found in this verse are :

1) "going about to establish their own righteousness"
2) "submitting themselves unto God's righteousness".

#1 is the work that does not save but was the work which the Jews were doing. The work in #2 does save but it was the work the Jews were NOT doing and why they were lost per verse 1.

very good!

 

[childeye]

Very true about the distinction between works of the law (like circumcision) and the works of faith!

Having righteousness and being justified are the same however. Justice and righteousness are synonyms. A just man is a righteous man. In other languages the word for righteousness IS justice.

Thank you Adullam for your post. I am never comfortable disagreeing with you, such is my sincere respect. Always there seems to be semantics however. I am therefore inclined to agree with you as you have interpreted the terms.

Consider the nuances however. Justice is an equitable rendering of implementing judgment. That is to say mercy is greater than justice. Consider that being just is not the same as being justified since the term justified tends to imply tried and proved, while the term just denotes an attribute of fairness.

Certainly a just man is a righteous man. But yet God justifies the unrighteous through a propitiation put forth in the Christ.

We are therefore justified by grace and righteousness is a gift of God. For we all fall short of the glory of God. Therefore our Lord says, come to me all who thirst for righteousness. Or as the Psalm says
Psalm 143:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

 

[Adullam]

Thank you Adullam for your post. I am never comfortable disagreeing with you, such is my sincere respect. Always there seems to be semantics however. I am therefore inclined to agree with you as you have interpreted the terms. Certainly a just man is a righteous man. But yet through Christ God justifies the unrighteous.

Consider the nuances. Justice is an equitable rendering of implementing judgment. That is to say mercy is greater than justice, for mercy is of the Spirit of compassion and not limited by carnal reasoning. It is an attribute of the Eternal Spirit. Therefore righteousness is by grace through faith. Consider that being just is not the same as being justified since the term justified tends to imply tried and proved, while the term just denotes an attribute of fairness.

Finally, we are justified by grace and righteousness is a gift of God. For we all fall short of the glory of God. Therefore our Lord says, come to me all who thirst for righteousness. Or as the Psalm says
Psalm 143:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

I likewise very much esteem you in Christ!!!

The righteousness of God is higher than the law of righteousness. John the Baptist came in the way of righteousness but could not quicken men and give them a new life. Only one who is born of the Spirit can see the kingdom of God. So spiritual things can only be spiritually discerned. This is the higher way of holiness through the new creation in Christ. God is not abolishing basic righteousness...He is getting involved by making a new way of righteousness through faith in Christ.

We then take on a life that is not ours but God's....not through a human performance but through a submitting to God by faith. So it is by grace (resurrection power) that we walk at this higher level of righteousness which is according to holiness!

As Christians this is what we seek...but without destroying the basic works of righteousness. It is just that we no longer seek to be made righteous by what we do. We seek to be in relationship to God and take on His desires and His will. So then our lives are melded into God's life so that we are hidden in God.

The law continues to exist as a gauge to show that what we do we do in the Lord. We fulfill the law by abiding in Christ. This is a higher righteousness....an UPPER ROOM righteousness. :nod

 

[childeye]

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."


The above verse is what this thread has been centered around. This verse is not pitting faith vs works (for faith is a work) but the verse is contrasting two different types of works. The verse speaks of one work that does not save and one work that does save.

The two types of works found in this verse are :

1) "going about to establish their own righteousness"
2) "submitting themselves unto God's righteousness".

#1 is the work that does not save but was the work which the Jews were doing. The work in #2 does save but it was the work the Jews were NOT doing and why they were lost per verse 1.

Well said. I would only add in concurrence what scripture means when it says, our unrighteousness commends God's righteousness.

 

[childeye]

I likewise very much esteem you in Christ!!!

The righteousness of God is higher than the law of righteousness. John the Baptist came in the way of righteousness but could not quicken men and give them a new life. Only one who is born of the Spirit can see the kingdom of God. So spiritual things can only be spiritually discerned. This is the higher way of holiness through the new creation in Christ. God is not abolishing basic righteousness...He is getting involved by making a new way of righteousness through faith in Christ.

We then take on a life that is not ours but God's....not through a human performance but through a submitting to God by faith. So it is by grace (resurrection power) that we walk at this higher level of righteousness which is according to holiness!

As Christians this is what we seek...but without destroying the basic works of righteousness. It is just that we no longer seek to be made righteous by what we do. We seek to be in relationship to God and take on His desires and His will. So then our lives are melded into God's life so that we are hidden in God.

The law continues to exist as a gauge to show that what we do we do in the Lord. We fulfill the law by abiding in Christ. This is a higher righteousness....an UPPER ROOM righteousness. :nod

I love the way you talk. Indeed you have erased all semantics by viewing Truth and expressing it in circumference.

 

[savedbygrace57]

God's Righteousness is that Righteousness that each person has whom Christ died for, and it is made known to them via the Gospel Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Its a free gift of Righteousness given them freely for Christ's sake ! Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

 

[childeye]

God's Righteousness is that Righteousness that each person has whom Christ died for, and it is made known to them via the Gospel Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Its a free gift of Righteousness given them freely for Christ's sake ! Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Good post. Please elaborate on what you mean when you say for Christ's sake.

 

[Adullam]

God's Righteousness is that Righteousness that each person has whom Christ died for, and it is made known to them via the Gospel Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Its a free gift of Righteousness given them freely for Christ's sake ! Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

One who is already doing well enough in their own strength is not quick to abandon his whole life. This is why Jesus did not come to call the righteous to repentance. Rather it is the ones who sin terribly and cannot do anything right on their own that are willing to be emptied of everything. So God justifies sinners in this way....they empty themselves of all things so that they can be indwelt by Christ. That is the righteousness of God. We recognize we have failed and need a Saviour so God receives us as empty vessels to be filled with His life and presence.

This idea is shown in the parable of the prodigal son. The sinner of the 2 brothers receives more favour than the obedient righteous son. But the latter is angry since the sinner is seen as being given preference. This is due to one being more appreciative of life when one has experienced a death. So then...he who is forgiven much also loves much. This is God's reasoning and this helps to build the kingdom. The good in men gets in the way of the perfection in Christ that God wishes to implant in His creation. Who is the most likely host of this new life???? Those who need it!!!

 

[Mitspa]

Kind of like those who addressed Peter here:

Acts 2:37 (KJV)
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

And what did Peter say? did he say "nothing"? no he said:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 2:36

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.



Of course you who seek your "own righteousness" always forget what is all about! The Lord Jesus Christ!

Like the "religious" class of the Lords day, He heals the sick and the "religious hypocrites" ask "who told you to carry your bed"? They should have repented and turned to the Lord!

How does one receive the Holy Spirit anyway? by works or by faith?

 

[Mitspa]

So then you must agree Rahab's account of her righteousness included the works James spoke of and not by her faith only.

James 2:24-25 KJV

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

That justification is not by faith only, but is also dependent on acts of obedience to God's will.

Real faith has real works "of faith"

Heb 11:31



By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

This is a work of faith, because she acted on what she believed. simple!

If you love someone you will act on that love, or else its not real love, that is the obedience of faith that James is speaking of!

If I say I have faith in the Work of Christ, yet I do not act according to His work, then my faith is as in a dead man. It has no life!

Everything we do for God must bring glory to God and be from His glory ,not us or else we are seeking our own righteousness, and our own glory!

Basically James is saying, dont fool yourself, because God is not fooled when we say we have faith, yet we do not act in faith?

 

[Mitspa]

My obeying God's righteousness is not perfect but it keeps me in Christ where I am covered by Christ's perfect righteousness.

The verse in your op is where Paul said the Jews were lost for NOT SUBMITTING to the righteousness of God. This means to be saved, the Jews had to obey the commands of God. Rom 10:3 refutes the man-made ideas of faith only.

I covered that issue with Born-again, but because I like you I will do it again!



Rom 10:4



For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:12



For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13



For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.



You say you are not perfect, but you keep yourself in Gods Righteousness ? How do YOU do That? Do you have the power to make God give you His Righteousness?



Rom 5:17



For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18






Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19



For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I think you must be wrong!

 

[Mitspa]

I came back to this thread today and it has turned into a discussion of faith vs. works. Forgive my selfish tendency, but I am not particulary fond of that topic because of the divisions that occurs over misunderstandings. As such I believe we are now left only arguing semantics in futility. Faith is dead without following through in what you believe. That is simple enough to understand. Why call me Lord and not do what I say?

I would hope it is also understandable that when Paul talks about righteousness not coming through works but by faith alone, he is refering to the works of the law. And when James says men are not justified by faith alone but by works, he is not refering to the works of the law as Paul does, but to works of faith.

Having righteousness and being justified are also two different things, and so also are works of the law and works of faith. So respectfully, am I going overboard by requesting we not waste our time debating semantics and delving in what I perceive as confusion?

Well I agree, But what can we do but Speak of His Righteousness even when others want to boast in their own!

Rom 12:20

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21

Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[Mitspa]

One who is already doing well enough in their own strength is not quick to abandon his whole life. This is why Jesus did not come to call the righteous to repentance. Rather it is the ones who sin terribly and cannot do anything right on their own that are willing to be emptied of everything. So God justifies sinners in this way....they empty themselves of all things so that they can be indwelt by Christ. That is the righteousness of God. We recognize we have failed and need a Saviour so God receives us as empty vessels to be filled with His life and presence.

This idea is shown in the parable of the prodigal son. The sinner of the 2 brothers receives more favour than the obedient righteous son. But the latter is angry since the sinner is seen as being given preference. This is due to one being more appreciative of life when one has experienced a death. So then...he who is forgiven much also loves much. This is God's reasoning and this helps to build the kingdom. The good in men gets in the way of the perfection in Christ that God wishes to implant in His creation. Who is the most likely host of this new life???? Those who need it!!!

Rom 3:10



As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11



There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12



They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:23



For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

I think you must be in error, I think the Lord was trying to make another point? Not that they WERE righteous, but that they thought they were! Going about being ignorant of Gods Righteousness, which was right in front of them!


Rom 6:14



For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The strength of sin is the law!

 

[Adullam]

Rom 3:10



As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11



There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12



They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:23



For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

I think you must be in error, I think the Lord was trying to make another point? Not that they WERE righteous, but that they thought they were! Going about being ignorant of Gods Righteousness, which was right in front of them!


Rom 6:14



For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The strength of sin is the law!

Before one can understand the right answers one needs to ask the right questions.