Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Hopeful]

He'll probably be there so you can ask him personally.

I hope so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If it was "off" did you ask him about it or ask one of the men to talk with him about the truth?

I didn’t need to ask, he talked about it a lot. He talked to the head of the organization about it too. It was really important to him that he was sinless.

All I see is that you evaluated a man as a liar and left him in his sin.

Untrue. But if one wants truth, one evaluates what others teach. I’m not his judge. But I see the fruit a teaching brings.

Did you show him what real sinlessness looks like?

I didn’t know anyone who was. And it took years to figure it all out.

We are still in contact, btw. I comforted him when his daughter died in an accident.

 

[crossnote]

I hope so.

I would think 'hopeful' would expect so.

 

[rthom7]

I didn't mean to not make it a discussion, so please feel free to reply as you feel appropriate. The reason behind my choosing of Heb. 11.1 was to demonstrate that true faith is itself, in some sense, is a substance - it is tangible -- it is not conjecture nor a formulation of the mind, but Christ Himself who indwells those saved, the result of which is demonstrated in their burgeoning and increasing trust and confidence towards Him as Saviour: as the one who rightfully alone holds that title and who saves.
Regarding Romans 4:5, I think that I understand it, but perhaps not. The basis of my understanding is that true faith has at its core, works, yet a person's works cannot save them. Therefore, the faith that saves cannot be theirs.
The only way it can be possible, is if faith is given as a gift, and so the faith that does save, must be Christ's faith because His faith alone had the works needed to please the Father. That is why, in the below verse we read that "his faith" -- Christ's faith-- is counted for righteousness, not their faith. Any faith we might manufacture cannot be righteous because we cannot produce the works necessary to make it righteous. Okay, now having said that, what am I missing re your understanding of faith?

[Rom 4:5 KJV] 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Oops, meant to include shalom.

Rogerg Said" The basis of my understanding is that true faith has at its core, works, yet a person's works cannot save them. Therefore, the faith that saves cannot be theirs.

yes correct, but that does mean the faith has no value, the works we allow to be achieved through us are Christ's works anyway, and it means much to the Father, when we allow such works to be replicated in us, for these efforts of co-operation and partnership to God, we are rewarded. Thy good and faithful servant. Shalom my friend.

 

[rogerg]

yes correct, but that does mean the faith has no value, the works we allow to be achieved through us are Christ's works anyway, and it means much to the Father, when we allow such works to be replicated in us, for these efforts of co-operation and partnership to God, we are rewarded. Thy good and faithful servant. Shalom my friend.

Shalom, rthom7
Can Christ's works be achieved in/by us? Christ's work was to bring salvation. Wouldn't that then make salvation our work?
Roger

 

[rthom7]

Are you getting works and obedience confused?

Not sure? Please explain, what does obedience mean to you? A Bible text would also be nice.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 ¶ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

This passage Jesus speaks does not mention "Faith", I get the impression when you practice faith using your will, you become "clean" and thus abide in Jesus continually? Not sure, open to advice here? Just my two pennies of experience so far, after over 50 years of learning how salvation works? Maybe you can help ? Shalom

 

[rthom7]

We likely are coming from very different places but that can make a discussion more interesting. (What I mean is, when two people completely agree, the discussion is pretty much over.)

The example of my obedience and your attitude of prayer does not match my obedience although I can see what you are saying somewhat better. I cannot, of course, speak to your internal thinking as that is not clear to me as we have only just met and I have read too few of your pieces to be able to say anything worth saying to your attitude. (I am of the view, that is admittedly disputed by some, that when you read enough of what a person has written which comes directly out of their thinking unless they merely quote others, you get a good idea of what and how they think. People write a lot about what they think and they are angry when you say you know what they think. I have no idea what they think they are doing when they express in words their thinking other than communicating their thinking.)

Probably needs to be said that I am a woman and so the temptations in the direction of lust do not at all come from seeing a man, dressed or otherwise. Women are not tempted by visual stimulus. Jesus spoke in the scriptures to men, males in that one for a particular reason. So that example does not resinate with me, I am afraid. It would not with most women.

That being said, you are addressing the state of being tempted to sin and asking for help so as to avoid doing that sin. You essentially ask God for help in the moments of temptation, right? Seems OK to me. Not so convinced about the wording as in the "power of Jesus flowing into you" but if you can resist temptation that is the main thing, whatever you call it.

Now my instances of obedience are both refraining from and active. I can give an obvious active one that applies to all Christians. We are to forgive those who sin against us. Period. This is something I have to choose to want AND ask for help to do so. When God points out that I have not forgiven someone, I have to acknowledge this and ask for help if the offense is pretty large. So in that I too ask for his help although it is more active than refraining from. Of course, forgiving others is helped along by the warning that if I fail, God will not forgive me. So there is more than none reason to obey.

Well said Dorothy, I learned a valuable lesson the other day about Salvation and the condition of our attitude towards Salvation. Salvation is conditionally given to us daily, as we forgive others, Jesus forgives us.

Such a theme is written in the parable of the unforgiving servant. God forgave him his debt, but the servant could not forgive a fellow neighbour his debt. This is especially a problem for women and their husbands, we as a hubby do something wrong, and seek forgiveness, the wife has a long memory and rarely forgives and clings onto memories of past mistakes into the decades of years. This parable and its conditional attitude directly impacts our salvation, and is a work of attitude we have to address daily in our lives if we wish to seek Jesus our salvation.

There is one of many prayer promises for this attitude:

Mt 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Shalom

 

[rthom7]

Shalom, rthom7
Can Christ's works be achieved in/by us? Christ's work was to bring salvation. Wouldn't that then make salvation our work?
Roger

Yes Roger, when you partnership to Jesus and his power flows through you, the works achieved are your works in Christ, but one needs to be careful of your boasting and pride. Sure when we grow things in our garden, and are a helpmate to God, we cannot say, we grow the plants and make their fruit. One needs to address the humility of our works and whom takes the glory, certainly not us. In my own life in Jesus, our pride is the biggest stumbling block in any relationship. A marriage is a good example of this, we have to learn to work as one, not as two in partnership. Hope you understand this ? Shalom

 

[rogerg]

Yes Roger, when you partnership to Jesus and his power flows through you, the works achieved are your works in Christ, but one needs to be careful of your boasting and pride. Sure when we grow things in our garden, and are a helpmate to God, we cannot say, we grow the plants and make their fruit. One needs to address the humility of our works and whom takes the glory, certainly not us. In my own life in Jesus, our pride is the biggest stumbling block in any relationship. A marriage is a good example of this, we have to learn to work as one, not as two in partnership. Hope you understand this ? Shalom

Why do you think the Bible informs of this?

[Jhn 6:65 KJV] 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[rthom7]

There is a disconnect. There are people, not a few, who help others (doing good) because there is a need and they have compassion. There is no connection to faith. And I cannot think of a single good work the devil uses. I suppose one can say the devil uses faith when he gets people to believe strongly in a lie.

Here I disagree. The works of the law are the people in his day following the old Mosaic law with its dos and don'ts. The works of the law are not helping an old lady cross the street. That is just plain a good deed, not a work of the law and the devil is not involved unless there is more to the story that is wrong.

But who does this? I can tell you for sure and certain that atheists are not trying to obey any law and are not trying to be justified by doing so. They just do good things to help others because others need it. At least some of the time for sure.

I do not see anywhere in the Scripture there faith is Jesus means "a strong flow of power" at all. Can you provide a Scripture for this position please?

Sorry maybe I speak too much and now I am getting proud. We all have our experiences in life and I value yours and your advice as well.

As for the meaning of Amanuah, The Jews speak this word as Emanuh, and I am not sure why, neither do they understand the root word which is "man", the Greek word for this is "manna". Manna is a food granted from heaven for Israel to eat. Hence in a poetry sense this was the bread from heaven.
Jeff Benner is a person I ran into many years back because when I study Hebrew and KJV translations I was surprised by the inconsistent translations, though the KJV is the best for our English. Hence I came to like Jeff because he says like I say, languages that are pure should have no polysemy. He also introduced me to Ancient Hebrew, a system of older letters preserved inside the Scriptures. And from these come word meanings as I posted.

For example the word "faith" is made of "aleph" "mem" "nun" "hey" Hebrew letters.
These letters are in English "A" "M" "N" and "H". Often Jews add other sounds between to make the word easier to speak.

If you look you can see "AMeN with H" so when we speak amen we are using the term faith.

Manna or man, uses three of those letters "M" "A" and "N".

Jews do not associate "hey" like Jeff Benner explains, is a picture of a person beholding another person of awesome glory.

Here is a picture I like about faith

Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

If you eat food often enough you lose its sense of wonder, and you become complacent. Inside the food is a flow of power that supports all your cells and imparts life.

The poetry parallel to this is the torah, a simile of rain, and inside the torah are teachings that also have strong flows of power in them that we are also supposed to eat.

The attitude of eating that life sustaining power depends upon the way you perceive the words of life.

When we say a prayer of blessing for the food we receive at our tables, do we really have the attitude of gratitude or do we just eat the words/food casually as if nothing unusual about it? Notice God tests us daily to see how we relate to Salvation, which is a bread from heaven, that we eat daily.

The Bible has much poetry in it, and this allows many different opinions of the word pictures we see and the parallels we gather. It also has that mystery , as you say we all never speak the same, as we are drawn into different people's experiences. Thanks for the opportunity to share. Shalom

 

[rthom7]

Do you know ancient Hebrew or just parroting others? Even current Hebrew was a dead language until the last century.

My friend, I understand your concern about the hidden nature of the Scriptures.

So the disciples went to Jesus and asked

Mt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in other places

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Here is a prophecy the Hebrew goes out into another tongue, with stammering lips, this becomes the latter torah in Greek we have surviving today, and English, which is a conglomeration of many languages including Hebrew anyway. So the confusion has increased, but at least we can read a little.

Knowledge and scholarship does not lead to understanding Salvation. The best method is to experience Jesus personally and seek the tutor for help in understanding, the Comforter who brings things into focus.

Scripture does teach us to begin on milk and than end up eating the meat of the word. There is a reason for the gradual development of food intake. Not to increase our pride, but to learn meekness and humility. Often the more we know and less we know about anything.

I have spoken to Hebrew speaking people on forums and they say there is no such thing as Ancient Hebrew anyway, so you can learn your learnings as best you see fit, and take anything you read with a grain of salt, for mockers mock all day long.

Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Here is another verse from the same passage, which speaks of how to read Scriptures in the first place.

Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Behold a wonder, is spoken only three times in Scripture, here it refers to the hiding of the Scriptures, for a reason...

And for those who seek this wonder of wonders, God promises

Isa 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD,

Wow, that is amazing.

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

So the Bible can shine like a light so the blind can see and the deaf can hear. How this is achieved is only when you seek the Comforter for opening the Scriptures to you. Shalom

 

[rthom7]

Why do you think the Bible informs of this?

[Jhn 6:65 KJV] 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I dunno, one cannot answer all things, perhaps the Father knows all things and reads the future we do not know ourselves? That doesn't remove the invitation all are invited to the wedding feast, only that the Father knows already those which are willing to come. Shalom

 

[rogerg]

I dunno, one cannot answer all things, perhaps the Father knows all things and reads the future we do not know ourselves? That doesn't remove the invitation all are invited to the wedding feast, only that the Father knows already those which are willing to come. Shalom

But the verse say that none can come to Christ, not that the Father knows in advance who will make the choice to come. I think that means it is the Father's decision/prerogative/action as to who it is that He will draw to Christ, not a person's action, and so He draws them alone. I don't see any other way to interpret it. That verse is extremely important and significant in understanding salvation.

 

[crossnote]

I have spoken to Hebrew speaking people on forums and they say there is no such thing as Ancient Hebrew anyway, so you can learn your learnings as best you see fit, and take anything you read with a grain of salt, for mockers mock all day long.

Here is my Modus operandi…

Acts 17:11 KJV
[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I hold to the perspicuity of Scripture along with the fact that Scripture interprets itself, we don’t have to look for deep dark hidden meanings.

 

[Hopeful]

I didn’t need to ask, he talked about it a lot. He talked to the head of the organization about it too. It was really important to him that he was sinless.

It is important to everyone who is "in Christ", as there is no sin in Him.

Untrue. But if one wants truth, one evaluates what others teach. I’m not his judge. But I see the fruit a teaching brings.

I guess it was before you were "spiritual".
As it is written..."But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." (1 Cor 2:15)

I didn’t know anyone who was. And it took years to figure it all out.

I give glory to God for your conversion.

We are still in contact, btw. I comforted him when his daughter died in an accident.

That was a kind thing to do.
Can you put he and I together?

 

[Hopeful]

I would think 'hopeful' would expect so.

If I remain faithful till the end, it will happen.

 

[crossnote]

If I remain faithful till the end, it will happen.

So, in the end, it pretty much depends on you?

(Rom 5:10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Hopeful]

So, in the end, it pretty much depends on you?

(Rom 5:10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

I will be the one judged for my actions.
As long as I am living my life "in Christ", my hope remains high.
I thank God for 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
I'll keep finding the escapes from temptations, because God promises they will be there.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It is important to everyone who is "in Christ", as there is no sin in Him.

You won’t find that view reflected in the New Testament, this focus on your personal holiness as a life goal. The focus is on loving God and loving people.

I guess it was before you were "spiritual".
As it is written..."But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." (1 Cor 2:15)

I give glory to God for your conversion.

That’s pretty condescending. I doubt God feels glorified by your words.

That was a kind thing to do.
Can you put he and I together?

Why?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sorry maybe I speak too much and now I am getting proud. We all have our experiences in life and I value yours and your advice as well.

As for the meaning of Amanuah, The Jews speak this word as Emanuh, and I am not sure why, neither do they understand the root word which is "man", the Greek word for this is "manna". Manna is a food granted from heaven for Israel to eat. Hence in a poetry sense this was the bread from heaven.
Jeff Benner is a person I ran into many years back because when I study Hebrew and KJV translations I was surprised by the inconsistent translations, though the KJV is the best for our English. Hence I came to like Jeff because he says like I say, languages that are pure should have no polysemy. He also introduced me to Ancient Hebrew, a system of older letters preserved inside the Scriptures. And from these come word meanings as I posted.

For example the word "faith" is made of "aleph" "mem" "nun" "hey" Hebrew letters.
These letters are in English "A" "M" "N" and "H". Often Jews add other sounds between to make the word easier to speak.

If you look you can see "AMeN with H" so when we speak amen we are using the term faith.

Manna or man, uses three of those letters "M" "A" and "N".

Jews do not associate "hey" like Jeff Benner explains, is a picture of a person beholding another person of awesome glory.

Here is a picture I like about faith

Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

If you eat food often enough you lose its sense of wonder, and you become complacent. Inside the food is a flow of power that supports all your cells and imparts life.

The poetry parallel to this is the torah, a simile of rain, and inside the torah are teachings that also have strong flows of power in them that we are also supposed to eat.

The attitude of eating that life sustaining power depends upon the way you perceive the words of life.

When we say a prayer of blessing for the food we receive at our tables, do we really have the attitude of gratitude or do we just eat the words/food casually as if nothing unusual about it? Notice God tests us daily to see how we relate to Salvation, which is a bread from heaven, that we eat daily.

The Bible has much poetry in it, and this allows many different opinions of the word pictures we see and the parallels we gather. It also has that mystery , as you say we all never speak the same, as we are drawn into different people's experiences. Thanks for the opportunity to share. Shalom

Where is the scripture that discusses or even mentions a “flow of power?”