WHY DO WE SIN?

[Edward]

Hey Jethro,
We sure did debate this a bit back a few years ago.
I see now why we couldn't agree, and I kept seeing a tiny nuance and knew we were close in agreement.
You said the NIV now calls it the sin nature.
You say it should be called the flesh.

Whatever the right term is, can you agree that we're born with the tendency toward sin and not toward God,
and then at our second and spiritual birth we tend to want to please God and have dominion over whatever it is that makes us sin?

Even as we are born again and have received a new spirit, we still abide in the flesh for now and sin dwells in the flesh. It's in Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.../

We arespirit/soul/body. Our spirit is a new spirit and Holy unto God. Our soul may be redeemed in the future, but for now, he is inbetween my spirit and my flesh. We are charged to overcome our flesh, and our soul is in the way trying to talk us out of it. Most of the flesh can be overcome fairly easily with some conscious effort. The flesh is full of temptations, the urge to eat, the sex drive, and the will to live. And by the graces of God the rest can be overcome too. In theory at least, Doh!

 

[electedbyHim]

Pre-gift of the Holy Ghost conditions prevailed in the times when Jesus spoke that.
Men have no excuse anymore.

Please explain your position.

Are you sinless? Have you ever sinned?

 

[electedbyHim]

If you are still sinning, you are still the old man.
The way out of that situation is a real, true, permanent, repentance from sin; and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

So, true Christians do not sin?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You said the NIV now calls it the sin nature.
You say it should be called the flesh.

The NIV used to call it the sin nature. As far as I can see they do not now. They've caused a lot of confusion about the issue by calling the flesh the sin nature in past translations. The nature from which a fallen man sins is not his flesh, but rather the mindset he possesses. When a person is born again they get a new mindset. One set on the things of the Spirit, not the things of the flesh. That is the new that has come, and which replaces, not resides along with, the old.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hey Jethro,
We sure did debate this a bit back a few years ago.
I see now why we couldn't agree, and I kept seeing a tiny nuance and knew we were close in agreement.

The problem is you defined the sin nature as the flesh, which we obviously still have after we believe and are saved. I defined it as the fundamental nature of a man, his mindset deep in the essence of who he is. When a person is born again their mindset changes from that of a mind set on the things of the flesh to a mind set on the things of the Spirit. The old gets REPLACED by the new.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Whatever the right term is, can you agree that we're born with the tendency toward sin and not toward God,
and then at our second and spiritual birth we tend to want to please God and have dominion over whatever it is that makes us sin?

Yes, I agree. And it's much more than just a tendency. It's a mind set that we're born with. And a mindset that drives us to corrupt the desires of the flesh and then seek to satisfy those corrupt desires.

As far as the term is concerned, it looks like it's an invention of the NIV translators in past translations. And it seems they improperly called the flesh the source, or nature, of fallen man's sin, rather than the mindset of sin that the fallen person possesses, as Paul himself teaches right there in Romans 8, the very place where the NIV made the mistake of calling the flesh the sin nature. If one is going to use the term then it should be used in regard to the fundamental mindset of a man, not his flesh body.

 

[GodsGrace]

That idea is quashed by Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And by Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
And by Col 2:11..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"
And by 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
How can something that has been destroyed, crucified, circumcised, put off, and passed, away have any power over the faithful?
It can't.

Romans 6:6 says that our old man is crucified so that henceforth we should not serve sin.
To serve sin is different than committing a sin.

Galatians 5:24 Those following Christ have nailed their LUSTS AND PASSIONS to the cross.
Paul explains what these lusts and passions are in verse: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, anger, self-ambition, envy, drunkenness, etc.
I doubt born again Christians revel in the above.

Colossians 2:11 This does sound like the sin nature was totally cut off, but it is not reconciled with other scripture.
If this were true, Paul would never have had the need to extol Christians to holiness - he does this in every letter he wrote.

2 Corinthians 5:17 We ARE a new person. We are like a new creature. This verse does not say we will not sin anymore.

As you know Hopeful, I dislike debating this with you.
I admire you if you are able to keep from ever sinning.
However, this belief of yours (and some others) is very damaging to a Christian that does sin at times.
I'm not saying we should...just that it's really impossible if we understand what sin is.

 

[GodsGrace]

The NIV used to call it the sin nature. As far as I can see they do not now. They've caused a lot of confusion about the issue by calling the flesh the sin nature in past translations. The nature from which a fallen man sins is not his flesh, but rather the mindset he possesses. When a person is born again they get a new mindset. One set on the things of the Spirit, not the things of the flesh. That is the new that has come, and which replaces, not resides along with, the old.

Must go right now, but will reply to your other posts tomorrow.
I can agree with the above.
By mindset, you mean a mindset that tends toward evil? Maybe you call this flesh?
The new man has his mind set on Christ and things of the spirit, as you said.

Other languages also identify this "mindset" with a word.
For instance, in Italian it's concupicsensa.
It's the effect of Adam's original sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

By mindset, you mean a mindset that tends toward evil?

Yes. In the unsaved person.
And a mindset that tends towards the Spirit in the saved person. Two distinct mindsets. One of the unbeliever, and the other of the Spirit-filled believer.

Maybe you call this flesh?

No, I do not call that flesh. The mindset of sin entertains the things of the flesh. The mind set on the flesh is one thing. The flesh itself is another.

The mind set on the things of the flesh is what is done away with in Christ, but the flesh body remains (obviously). The mind set on the things of the flesh is replaced with a mind set on the things of the Spirit when we are born again.

 

[Hopeful]

Well, consider Paul's words to the Corinthian Christians. He called them "carnal babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1) and criticized their "jealousy and strife," but in the same chapter he referred to these carnal, contentious people as "God's field and building" (1 Corinthians 3:9), "temple of God," (1 Corinthians 3:16), and as those "who belong to Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:23). Though Paul in his first letter to the Corinthian believers chastised them very sharply for their grossly sinful conduct (1 Corinthians 5; 6:1-11; 11:17-22, etc.), he constantly affirmed that they were nonetheless "brethren" (1 Corinthians 4:6), that theyd been washed, sanctified and justified in Christ (1 Corinthians 6:11), that they were members of Christ (1 Corinthians 6:15) and temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19-20), and so on. Clearly, Paul did not think that being "new creatures in Christ" meant the Corinthian believers would not sin.

If he thought of them as "carnal" he did not think of them as "in Christ".
This was a slap in the face from Paul to the Corinthians..
A sort of "get straight or go home" message for the adulterers and other types of sinners who professed faith in Christ but whose actions denied it.
If they wanted to walk as children of the devil, then quit calling themselves children of God.

The same message is for us now.
Make up your minds on whom you will serve.

 

[Hopeful]

Please explain your position.

My answer was in response to Jesus' referral to Peter's weakness of the "flesh".

Are you sinless?

Yes, thanks be to God.

Have you ever sinned?

More than some.
But I repented of sin, and the truly repentant are, by definition. sinless.
And I was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins, so sanctified for the residency of the Holy Ghost.
That water baptism also provided for the death of the "old" me, and its vile affections and lusts: and I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
I am a new creature, reborn of Gods seed...to the glory of God and the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

So, true Christians do not sin?

Can apple seeds bring forth potatoes?
Nobody born of God's seed can bring forth the fruit of the devil.

 

[Hopeful]

Romans 6:6 says that our old man is crucified so that henceforth we should not serve sin.
To serve sin is different than committing a sin.

I disagree.
It is written..."Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom 6:16)

Galatians 5:24 Those following Christ have nailed their LUSTS AND PASSIONS to the cross.
Paul explains what these lusts and passions are in verse: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, anger, self-ambition, envy, drunkenness, etc.
I doubt born again Christians revel in the above.

So your difference is the "reveling"?
If they were not reveling in it they wouldn't do it.

Colossians 2:11 This does sound like the sin nature was totally cut off, but it is not reconciled with other scripture.
If this were true, Paul would never have had the need to extol Christians to holiness - he does this in every letter he wrote.

Admonitions and exhortations are for the safeguarding of the converted.
They are also for the weeding out of the impure.

2 Corinthians 5:17 We ARE a new person. We are like a new creature. This verse does not say we will not sin anymore.

The verse started out with "if any man be in Christ".
Is there sin "in Christ".
Absolutely not: and neither can there be sin in those in Christ.

As you know Hopeful, I dislike debating this with you.
I admire you if you are able to keep from ever sinning.
However, this belief of yours (and some others) is very damaging to a Christian that does sin at times.
I'm not saying we should...just that it's really impossible if we understand what sin is.

I thank you for continuing this long with me.
Jesus said, love God with all your strength and might, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
His commands are not grievous.
It is not impossible, or He would not have commanded it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You're going with a single verse, which means it isn't God's opinion you're going with.

When it’s a direct quote from God, it certainly is. The Bible quotes Satan, it quotes men and it quotes God. They don’t all carry the same weight even if they are all in the Bible.

If anyone believes that since we are born with a nature that is prone to sin, that it cannot be helped and they are not responsible, is in error.

No, it’s the logical outcome. Even human law recognizes responsibility and lack thereof.

But their error in belief certainly doesn't mean that we aren't born with a sinful nature. We are all born with a sinful nature, or propensity for sin, but God also says we are culpable and without excuse.

Where does God Himself say we are BORN with a sinful nature? That we have a propensity to sim FROM OUR YOUTH onward he says. And God needs to say this, not David saying his mother committed adultery at his conception (which incidentally Jeremiah didn’t say anything close to David’s woe about his existence in the womb because his mother didn’t sin at his conception, btw.)

 

[Free]

When it’s a direct quote from God, it certainly is. The Bible quotes Satan, it quotes men and it quotes God. They don’t all carry the same weight even if they are all in the Bible.

My point is that you are building doctrine on one verse, ignoring others, so it is likely just your opinion.

No, it’s the logical outcome. Even human law recognizes responsibility and lack thereof.

Not if one reads and understands the Bible.

Where does God Himself say we are BORN with a sinful nature? That we have a propensity to sim FROM OUR YOUTH onward he says. And God needs to say this, not David saying his mother committed adultery at his conception (which incidentally Jeremiah didn’t say anything close to David’s woe about his existence in the womb because his mother didn’t sin at his conception, btw.)

Pro 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. (ESV)

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. (ESV)

So, if as you claim, we don’t have a sinful nature and only start sinning (based on one verse) in our teens, why the need to discipline a child, with a rod at that?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My point is that you are building doctrine on one verse, ignoring others, so it is likely just your opinion.

But I am not. You can read the prophets and the teachings of Jesus and they have the same view. You have mainly ONE verse that says David's mother committed adultery when he was conceived. Everyone knows a child is not more sinful because the mother sinned and David said his mother sinned, not his father and not that he was affected.

Not if one reads and understands the Bible.

So all words, the words of Satan and the words of Jesus and the words of God Almighty are all the same to you?

Pro 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. (ESV)

So you are a supporting of beating children? Do you not know that Proverbs is called "wisdom literature" which means a person is to consider it, think about it. These are not commands and only to be considered.

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. (ESV)

Again, only wisdom literature, not promises and not commands.

So, if as you claim, we don’t have a sinful nature and only start sinning (based on one verse) in our teens, why the need to discipline a child, with a rod at that?

The state of the world is a complex one but to put is succinctly, we are not alone. Children are not alone and I have actually seen small children imitate bad behavior in their parents. Alternatively, I saw a 3 year old get so mad he wanted to use bad words to express his anger and he did not know any. And he lived with his parents, both, his grandparents and his great grandmother. That little boy knew NO CUSS words. What he actually said was, "you, you, you little Max!" which is just a name that has no other meaning. The adults all laughed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Without the Spirit everybody has the mindset of the flesh. Everybody is born that way. Their minds are, by nature, set on the things of the flesh and they invariably start to choose to sin and becomes slaves to sin, growing up into the image of their father, Adam.

It isn't until a person receives the Holy Spirit in salvation that they then have the mindset of the Spirit. They are 'born' that way. Their minds are now, by nature, set on the things of the Spirit and they invariably start to choose to not sin and become slaves to righteousness, growing up into the image of their heavenly Father.

That’s one theory. I hadn’t noticed the church to be full of “slaves to righteousness” but I have the same theory in my head that matches real life. Its much easier that way in many respects.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That’s one theory.

It's right out of the Bible.

I hadn’t noticed the church to be full of “slaves to righteousness” but I have the same theory in my head that matches real life. Its much easier that way in many respects.

The biggest reason the church is not characterized as being slaves to righteousness these days is because many people in the church are not born again. They have the water part of "water and Spirit" down, but not the Spirit part. That doesn't mean they never will. It just means they don't now...many of them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does God Himself say we are BORN with a sinful nature?

He qualified the use of that term as the propensity to sin. Do you not think that all people have a natural propensity to sin? Like Adam, everybody is born naked and unclothed. All people are born doomed to follow the path of the father whose image they have born in. It isn't until a person is born again in the image of the heavenly father by the Spirit that a person is now destined to follow the path of righteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you not know that Proverbs is called "wisdom literature" which means a person is to consider it, think about it. These are not commands and only to be considered.

Proverbs 2:1
1My son, if you accept my words and hide my commandments within you