Flesh or sinful nature

[smaller]

To me to tell someone who has been circumcised with spiritual circumcision that they still have s sinful nature (which I have heard) is far different from telling someone they have a divine nature but sometimes sins. They will identify themselves either as Saint or Sinner which will determine in their own minds their identity as a child or not. This will then produce further ramifications in their walk, it will either be in grace or works. I must not sin to get Gods love rather than I identify with the nature I have been given by Christ and I so much want to be like him because he is in my and me in him, he loves me and I love him, not I must show him I love him by ridding myself of the sinful nature that I have been told I still have.

Does that make sense?

Not at all.

Paul explained clearly that there was him as a child of God and sin that was in his flesh that was not him, and that the Spirit is against.

The utterly false notion that "most" christians try to apply is that they are only ONE THING and they disregard their flesh and it's factual state as a condition that can not be changed, can not be blessed, can not be condoned by the Spirit.

These questions are never that God is only for us. That was never the case.

God is and remains firmly against the evil that is present with all of us REGARDLESS of how much nice religious paint we put on our flesh or how imaginatively rosily optimistic we like to see our flesh. None of this is true. It is spiritual deception.

 

[Wrg1405]

I think you have missed my point. I agree that sin is in the flesh, how I don't know. What I have tried to convey is that if sin resides in the flesh it resides and not because your nature is sinful. However if you feel your nature is sinful then your identity is a sinner. That being the case then you seek to be saved by works, eradicate the sin in your flesh. You are saved by works rather than grace.

Therefore if your identity is in Christ, if you beleive that your new nature has been given you by Christ and the Holy Spirit is in you and even if you sin it's forgiven and it inspires you to walk according to the spirit and not the flesh.

As for your comment

God is and remains firmly against the evil that is present with all of us REGARDLESS of how much nice religious paint we put on our flesh or how imaginatively we rosily optimistic we like to see our flesh. None of this is true. It's spiritual deception.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Yes God hates evil that's why he sent Jesus, so if we beleive in him we are no longer evil and he has removed our sins as far as the east is from the west and chooses to remember them no more.

So sorry my friend if I haven't got what you said.

 

[smaller]

There is no way to remedy or harmonize the scriptures without realizing that God is against sin and evil, and that we all bear that condition of the flesh.

Examples from a couple scriptures (a glaring example):

Romans 8:31
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

And believers read this and that makes them feel just fine and dandy, UNTIL they have to remedy or harmonize this fact also, which also applies to all of us:

Romans 2:11
For there is no respect of persons with God.

How is this remedied or harmonized? By recognizing the factual state of the flesh, that being that sin dwells in our flesh and evil is present with us just as it was for Paul.

There these two conflicting statements are resolved. It is both a for and against position that we DO factually have with God. This is also why "believers" encounter tribulations and chastisements. It is not the tribulation and chastisements from other people. It is tribulations and chastisements from God at His Sole Discourses against that which we bear in our flesh (openly apparent by the actions of sin or NOT.)

This is the basis of rightly garnered fear of God for all believers in the flesh. The Spirit IS against and contrary to the flesh, and for Divine Reasons.

Yet these are the conditions that God Himself has planted us in in our current fleshly life.

Paul addresses these matters at length in his Holy Spirit inspired writings and revelations which led him into the only possible sound theological conclusion. That being we "see and hear" God in Christ and are saved by God in Christ solely by Gods Grace and Mercy allowing such salvation to be perceived/known/confessed, not by anything that we do. Believers who claim otherwise simply have no understanding of the factual state of their own hides. It is impossible to justify sin indwelling the flesh/evil present with us on God in Christs Part. That simply can't happen. NOR can we rid ourselves of these facts by any of our actions, pre or post salvation. We can only come to know His Grace and Mercy in a progressive fashion, as we are "changed" by His Grace. The ultimate change, that of Phil. 3:21 remains to be seen for all of us, but it does show we have a VILE body. Why is is vile? Indwelling sin and evil present with us.

Anyone trying to land on only one side of the ledgers is bound to get either frustrated or deceived, eventually.

The answers to scriptural harmony reside in being honest about the bad side of the ledgers, personally, seeing their validity and understanding our state.

 

[smaller]

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Yes God hates evil that's why he sent Jesus, so if we beleive in him we are no longer evil

And that is precisely the deception that evil present in the flesh brings us to conclude. OR it "excuses" our evil present. It's also known by it's worst cases called lying hypocrisy. Which is the final state of the deception of evil present with us. And this is the affliction that has always been rampant in all who engage Gods Words. It is the same reason that Israel was eventually destroyed and the people scattered.

God will have HIS MERCY. And we have been factually placed by God in a position of need for same. IF the dials of that need have to be turned up individually or collectively to show and PROVE that need, that too is Gods Choice to do so and it is entirely in HIS ARSENAL to do so to any of us. See Job for a great example.

If we are not under chastisements that are from God we are bastards, not sons of God. A son should be expected to see the 'causes' of same and why it IS SO. OR see how God treated His Own Son. Not even worthy of such chastisements, without sin, yet mercilessly killed without any cause. And we expect better? LOL!!!!!!

People who sit, fat dumb and happy in their contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit flesh and have no conception of DIVINE chastisements or their flesh/state condition have fallen quite far from the reality tree of the Spirit.

I'll add a p.s. here and say they'll be saved regardless.

 

[GodsGrace]

Most of them are operating in the realm of the law of sin and death (condemnation). If scripture is used to identify the sins, they are ready to through you off a cliff. They have salvation, but not the joy of salvation.

If you're operating in the realm of sin and death and condemnation, how could you have salvation?

Wondering

 

[Edward]

The utterly false notion that "most" christians try to apply is that they are only ONE THING and they disregard their flesh and it's factual state as a condition that can not be changed, can not be blessed, can not be condoned by the Spirit.

Amen, Brother. We have to be mindful of this at all times, to identify our spirit man as "us", and not the flesh! Great point.

:yes

 

[iLOVE]

If you're operating in the realm of sin and death and condemnation, how could you have salvation?

Wondering

Acts of sin doesn't reverse justification. However, all sin has consequences. David said in Psalm 51, "Return the joy of my salvation." In Psalm 32, David said, "Your hand was heavy upon me." Why? Because of sin!

 

[GodsGrace]

Acts of sin doesn't reverse justification. However, all sin has consequences. David said in Psalm 51, "Return the joy of my salvation." In Psalm 32, David said, "Your hand was heavy upon me." Why? Because of sin!

It doesn't sound like you were talking about sin.
Sin can be forgiven.
You said:
"Operating in the realm of sin and death and condemnation."

Don't you see a difference?

W

 

[Wrg1405]

Amen, Brother. We have to be mindful of this at all times, to identify our spirit man as "us", and not the flesh! Great point.

Brothers, please explain this to me as if I'm a 5 year old. Smaller I am really sorry but I can't get what you are saying.

 

[iLOVE]

It doesn't sound like you were talking about sin.
Sin can be forgiven.
You said:
"Operating in the realm of sin and death and condemnation."

Don't you see a difference?

W

If a Believer doesn't understand the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus they are operating in the realm of the law of sin and death (condemnation).

 

[GodsGrace]

If a Believer doesn't understand the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus they are in the realm of the law of sin and death (condemnation).

ILOVE,
This is my point.
The law of sin and death leads to condemnation.
If you're condemned, you're NOT saved.

See 1 John 1:8-10
If we sin, He is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins.

We all sin. We ask forgiveness, God forgives us.

Now go to 1 John 3:9
John is saying that anyone who PRACTICES sin, or lives a life of sin cannot be born of God and is thus condemned. (my words).

See? You cannot be in the realm of sin and death and condemnation and still be saved. You would be walking away from God in that case - not walking toward God.

It seems to me that this is an important distinction. You make it sound like one could sin all he wants to and still be saved.

W

 

[iLOVE]

ILOVE,
This is my point.
The law of sin and death leads to condemnation.
If you're condemned, you're NOT saved.

See 1 John 1:8-10
If we sin, He is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins.

We all sin. We ask forgiveness, God forgives us.

Now go to 1 John 3:9
John is saying that anyone who PRACTICES sin, or lives a life of sin cannot be born of God and is thus condemned. (my words).

See? You cannot be in the realm of sin and death and condemnation and still be saved. You would be walking away from God in that case - not walking toward God.

It seems to me that this is an important distinction. You make it sound like one could sin all he wants to and still be saved.

W

Many Believers do not want to do the things they do which is sin. They will confess to God they have sinned and ask for forgiveness. Shortly after they go back and do the same thing which they do not want to do. Why? Because they need to be delivered from this sin(s).

The will of God's only prescribe order of victory for every born again Believer is "THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS." Romans 8:1-2. Please see iLOVE posting under Foundation of Faith, The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. We must understand that the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is a higher law than the Law of Sin and Death.

 

[Wrg1405]

Many Believers do not want to do the things they do which is sin. They will confess to God they have sinned and ask for forgiveness. Shortly after they go back and do the same thing which they do not want to do. Why? Because they need to be delivered from this sin(s).

I agree with you. Can you expand how they need to be delivered from sin

 

[GodsGrace]

Many Believers do not want to do the things they do which is sin. They will confess to God they have sinned and ask for forgiveness. Shortly after they go back and do the same thing which they do not want to do. Why? Because they need to be delivered from this sin(s).

The will of God's only prescribe order of victory for every born again Believer is "THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS." Romans 8:1-2. Please see iLOVE posting under Foundation of Faith, The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. We must understand that the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is a higher law than the Law of Sin and Death.

I agree!
And here you're making the distinction from the two.
The law of the spirit of life in Christ
kills
The law of Sin and Death.

Sin and death cannot live where there is the Spirit of God.

Here it would seem like you agree.
This is all I said. You cannot have it both ways...

W

 

[Edward]

Amen, Brother. We have to be mindful of this at all times, to identify our spirit man as "us", and not the flesh! Great point.

Brothers, please explain this to me as if I'm a 5 year old. Smaller I am really sorry but I can't get what you are saying.

Like this, we are triune beings. Spirit, soul, and body. Our spirit is in subjection to our flesh and soul. They war within us. When I say, "me", I mean my spirit man and not my flesh man.

I do not identify myself with my flesh man. My flesh man was corrupt and is considered dead now because I have been born again in spirit. For now, we're stuck in our flesh body, like house arrest sorta, lol.

We are told that we are our bodies rather than they are a tool for us to use while we are here on earth and a dwelling place for the Lord. Its like temporary housing for us while we are on earth, but its not who we are.
2nd Corinthians 5:1-2

 

[iLOVE]

I agree!
And here you're making the distinction from the two.
The law of the spirit of life in Christ
kills
The law of Sin and Death.

Sin and death cannot live where there is the Spirit of God.

Here it would seem like you agree.
This is all I said. You cannot have it both ways...

W

Most Christians live in the law of sin and death. They do not lose their salvation, but lose their rewards.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Most Christians live in the law of sin and death. They do not lose their salvation, but lose their rewards.

Living in the law of sin and death has only one meaning. To be doing that means you are relying on the righteousness of law to be justified. And Galatians shows us that if, as you say, most Christians are relying on works of the law for justification then most Christians will lose the justification they had. Rewards will be the least of their concern.

 

[iLOVE]

Living in the law of sin and death has only one meaning. To be doing that means you are relying on the righteousness of law to be justified. And Galatians shows us that if, as you say, most Christians are relying on works of the law for justification then most Christians will lose the justification they had. Rewards will be the least of their concern.

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say in the bible that a Believer moves from in and out of being justified.

Two kinds of peace
1. Justifying Peace - This is Peace with God, a legal standing. Rom. 8:7; Eph. 2:14-15
2. Sanctifying Peace - This is the Peace of God in the heart. Rom. 8:6; 14:19; 15:13; Gal. 1:3

The first is the result of a legal standing. The second is the result of the Work of the Holy Spirit. The first is static, never fluctuates, the second changes almost from hour to hour. The first, every Christian has, the second, every Christian may have.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say in the bible that a Believer moves from in and out of being justified.

Well, actually it does:
"2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision (to be justified), Christ will be of no benefit to you (towards justification).
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:2,4 NASB)

 

[iLOVE]

Well, actually it does:
"2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision (to be justified), Christ will be of no benefit to you (towards justification).
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:2,4 NASB)

Falling from grace means trusting in something other than the Cross. Must Believers do not tithe and fall under this. However they are still justified with chaos in their life.