A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[GodsGrace]

It starts when you post beyond the quotes from the WCF and Institutes ... your little additions.

I guarantee that neither book ever describes God as "unfair" or "confused" or describes their doctrine as "man made" or "contradictory" ... yet you interject those words among your quotes when making your points.
That is misrepresenting what others believe.

like this ...

Let's see:
I'll repeat it:

IN REFORMED THEOLGY GOD IS MADE TO BE UNJUST.

And, in case you didn't notice throughout our discussions,
I POST the actual words in either the institutes or the WCF.

I DO NOT add words to what is written.

I DO make comments about what is written.
Two different methods of addressing a verse.

Now, the reformed ADD to what is written.
Fastfredy0 does this all the time.
For instance, for
John 3:16 he'll post
For whosoever [all those that] believe...

THAT IS ADDING WORDS TO VERSES.
That IS NOT COMMENTARY.

 

[Free]

If you want to say that God is just, then you're going to have to explain to me WHY He is just.

If you're wearing a red hat, I can't say it's brown and just let it go at that.

Let's have a real conversation....

What is justice?
And WHAT IN CALVINIST/REFORMED teaching shows that God is just?

Two questions.
Or, take one at a time.

Simply because the Bible says God is just. That is all that needs to be said.

Again, the argument is in exactly what it is that God has said and done, not in whether or not he is just. If the reformed position is right, say about God's election and choosing who will be saved, then it doesn't matter what you think, God is just in what he has done. For example, God decreed that whole nations were to be wiped out and he was just in doing so, regardless of what anyone today thinks about it.

 

[atpollard]

This is about your third or fourth reference to my use of the English language.
Does it seem to you that English is my second language or that I don't understand American culture?

I believe that it MIGHT be my third (if we accept that it even is a reference to your use of the English Language).

• One time I explained an idiom since I was unsure if someone living in Italy would be familiar with an American Idiom ... idioms are very culture dependent)
• A second time I simply stated that two English words you claimed meant the same thning had very different meanings and only one of them was close to the Greek word being translated. That is a comment that I would and have made to other English speaking people living in America that abuse the English language and stray from the meaning of the original word (Greek or Hebrew), so it says nothing about you personally beyond you misunderstand the Greek and English word DRAW (as many do who are determined to change what John 6:44 actually says).

In this case, the common saying about "three fingers" is typically accompanied by a hand gesture to illustrate and support the point being made. I cannot convey hand gestures in written form, so I offered the additional commentary in case the meaning was unclear without the visual illustration.

 

[GodsGrace]

Simply because the Bible says God is just. That is all that needs to be said.

Again, the argument is in exactly what it is that God has said and done, not in whether or not he is just. If the reformed position is right, say about God's election and choosing who will be saved, then it doesn't matter what you think, God is just in what he has done. For example, God decreed that whole nations were to be wiped out and he was just in doing so, regardless of what anyone today thinks about it.

No, there's something wrong here.

The bible states that God is just.

So what if He doesn't act in a just manner?
Are we still to respect Him?

Forget about the OT destruction of peoples and nations.
I was asked about that and God is just in those cases...He can do whatever He wants to do.
He is just in those cases.

Why won't you answer what JUST means?
I'd like to get on with this conversation once and for all.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I don't say what I don't mean.
I say what I mean.
You are again being degrading.
You just can't stop.

Get the post. Show that you are correct. .... or simply state what you believe on the matter to set things straight. I admit I could be wrong. But your answer was so memorable that I doubt it.
Set the record straight .... How can a Muslim who dies 20 years ago and never hearing of Christ get to heaven? or can they?
It's not like you are shy about giving your opinion or giving your opinion of other people's opinion. Speak up... set the record straight.

You can think what you want to.
I never tell you what you believe.

Now they cannot because GOD IS NOT JUST apparently,
which the reformed believe He is not.

LOL ... you say you never tell us what we believe and then in the same post state what we believe ...that we believe God is UNJUST. Hypocrisy and untrue.

Again, can a Muslim who died without knowledge of Christ go to heaven and if so, what does he have to do to be saved? Gee, maybe you procedure for Muslim salvation is more efficient than that of belief in Christ and if so we would be wise to use your knowledge to benefit a billion Muslims.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe that it MIGHT be my third (if we accept that it even is a reference to your use of the English Language).

• One time I explained an idiom since I was unsure if someone living in Italy would be familiar with an American Idiom ... idioms are very culture dependent)
• A second time I simply stated that two English words you claimed meant the same thning had very different meanings and only one of them was close to the Greek word being translated. That is a comment that I would and have made to other English speaking people living in America that abuse the English language and stray from the meaning of the original word (Greek or Hebrew), so it says nothing about you personally beyond you misunderstand the Greek and English word DRAW (as many do who are determined to change what John 6:44 actually says).

In this case, the common saying about "three fingers" is typically accompanied by a hand gesture to illustrate and support the point being made. I cannot convey hand gestures in written form, so I offered the additional commentary in case the meaning was unclear without the visual illustration.

I didn't take it personally.
I have a lot of self-confidence....
Just to let you know to stop saying it and making reference to it,
including the cultural stuff.
I grew up there till I was 53.

 

[GodsGrace]

Get the post. Show that you are correct. .... or simply state what you believe on the matter to set things straight. I admit I could be wrong. But your answer was so memorable that I doubt it.
Set the record straight .... How can a Muslim who dies 20 years ago and never hearing of Christ get to heaven? or can they?
It's not like you are shy about giving your opinion or giving your opinion of other people's opinion. Speak up... set the record straight.



LOL ... you say you never tell us what we believe and then in the same post state what we believe ...that we believe God is UNJUST. Hypocrisy and untrue.

Again, can a Muslim who died without knowledge of Christ go to heaven and if so, what does he have to do to be saved? Gee, maybe you procedure for Muslim salvation is more efficient than that of belief in Christ and if so we would be wise to use your knowledge to benefit a billion Muslims.

I don't have time for nonsense.
If you don't remember what I stated, MORE THAN ONCE when we were posting about a year ago,
it means it's not important to you.
Nuff said.

 

[atpollard]

For instance, for
John 3:16 he'll post
For whosoever [all those that] believe...

He is probably quoting from an "amplified" bible, so those words appear in his bible to clarify the meaning based on the original text ... more an "equivalent thought" translation than a "word for word" translation. It seems wrong to fault someone for their preferred translation (although I am willing to make an exception for a few translations like the JW and Thomas Jefferson's bible).

 

[GodsGrace]

He is probably quoting from an "amplified" bible, so those words appear in his bible to clarify the meaning based on the original text ... more an "equivalent thought" translation than a "word for word" translation. It seems wrong to fault someone for their preferred translation (although I am willing to make an exception for a few translations like the JW and Thomas Jefferson's bible).

Ah.
I see.
Then it must be the John MaCarthur Study Bible since ONLY a reformed believer would put that
in brackets....
Whoever [anyone that believes in Jesus]
DESRIPTIVE

When every other denomination understands it to mean that anyone who cares to and wants to believe in Jesus WILL BE SAVED...since this is what the NT teaches.

Could you at least admit that the reformed to NOT understand John 3:16 the same way other Christians do?
That would be intellectually honest of you.

 

[brightfame52]

fred

I agree. But the crux of your previous post was that people don't have a choice when it comes to salvation which I disagree with. They have a choice, said choice is the effect of God's choice.

They have the choice that God determined for them to have. But salvation isn't by men making choices. One cannot choose to be saved/justified, that was Gods choice. Lets take Adam, did he have a choice to eat of the fruit given him by eve, from a human perspective, yes he had a choice, but from Gods perspective in alignment with His Eternal Redemptive Purpose already established in Christ, no he didnt have a choice, God determined it, so all his thought process and an inclination conformed to bring about Gods purpose for him to sin, yet he did it without being forced.

 

[GodsGrace]

fred


They have the choice that God determined for them to have. But salvation isn't by men making choices. One cannot choose to be saved/justified, that was Gods choice. Lets take Adam, did he have a choice to eat of the fruit given him by eve, from a human perspective, yes he had a choice, but from Gods perspective in alignment with His Eternal Redemptive Purpose already established in Christ, no he didnt have a choice, God determined it, so all his thought process and an inclination conformed to bring about Gods purpose for him to sin, yet he did it without being forced.

If God DETERMINED it,
HOW could it not have been forced?

Do you realize what you say?

 

[GodsGrace]

Simply because the Bible says God is just. That is all that needs to be said.

Again, the argument is in exactly what it is that God has said and done, not in whether or not he is just. If the reformed position is right, say about God's election and choosing who will be saved, then it doesn't matter what you think, God is just in what he has done. For example, God decreed that whole nations were to be wiped out and he was just in doing so, regardless of what anyone today thinks about it.

I'll be back later.
Please answer those 2 questions.
I mean, I could say I love you,
but if I stick a knife in you...
DO I LOVE YOU?

This is what reformed theology does...
It states that God is just
but He doesn't act like it.

It states that God determined everything,
but he doesn't force us.
Read post 190 and tell me if it makes sense to you.
Tell my why or how it could make sense.
If I force you to choose ice-cream with a gun to your head,
can I then state that I didn't force you???

 

[brightfame52]

No such thing as being born again apart from hearing and believing the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ.

Otherwise your claim is a "Christ-less" salvation.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Only those who hear and believe are saved.




JLB

No such thing as hearing and believing without first being born again and having spiritual life.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I can say, without hesitation, that the reformed believe God is not just.

Free .... why is it OK for Wondering to say Reformed people like atpollard and I blaspheme God, calling him UNJUST?

I got chastised for allegedly misquoting Wondering on a minor doctrine and admit maybe I misunderstood and asked her to correct me if I was wrong ....yet she has accused us of calling God Unjust which she has done it repeatedly... *Sigh*
Doesn't seem to be a balance here. Where is the Calvinism moderator brightfame52 ... why hasn't He cleaned up the mess on aisle 7 *giggles*

 

[brightfame52]

If God DETERMINED it,
HOW could it not have been forced?

Do you realize what you say?

I already explained it. God can determine someone to do something and yet they do it willingly. Hes God and we are His pots to serve His Purpose.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Now, the reformed ADD to what is written.
@Fastfredy0 does this all the time.
For instance, for
John 3:16 he'll post
For whosoever [all those that] believe...

Agreed, I add comments to help those that lack understanding in the hopes they may see other possibilities. Granted, they rarely do.

John 3:16 is a good example. People assume Man's FREE WILL into the verse due to bias and I point out that the verse could just as easily assume God's free will.

that whosoever [because of God's WILL] believe
that whosoever [because of Man's FREE WILL] believe

... most people are not sharp enough to even see the possibility *sigh*
Ben Shapiro - What you want to believe you tend to believe and you tend to look for excuses to believe it.

 

[Free]

Free .... why is it OK for Wondering to say Reformed people like atpollard and I blaspheme God, calling him UNJUST?

I got chastised for allegedly misquoting Wondering on a minor doctrine and admit maybe I misunderstood and asked her to correct me if I was wrong ....yet she has accused us of calling God Unjust which she has done it repeatedly... *Sigh*
Doesn't seem to be a balance here.

No staff other than brightfame52 are to moderate in here, or the owner, as similar to God, he can do whatever he wants and is just in doing so. lol

Where is the Calvinism moderator brightfame52 ... why hasn't He cleaned up the mess on aisle 7 *giggles*

Ha ha.

 

[Fastfredy0]

They have the choice that God determined for them to have.

B.I.N.G.O.

They have the choice that God determined for them to have. But salvation isn't by men making choices.

Sigh, you just contradicted yourself. I think you mean to say that "salvation isn't [ultimately determined] by men making choices. If you had not made a choice to believe you would not be saved. Why you made that choice is another matter.

One cannot choose to be saved/justified, that was Gods choice.

You choose because He chose. *sigh*

Lets take Adam, did he have a choice to eat of the fruit given him by eve, from a human perspective, yes he had a choice, but from Gods perspective in alignment with His Eternal Redemptive Purpose already established in Christ, no he didnt have a choice, God determined it, so all his thought process and an inclination conformed to bring about Gods purpose for him to sin, yet he did it without being forced.

Adam chose because God chose. A causes B causes C causes .... Just because A (God is always the First Cause and therefore A is the ultimate cause) doesn't negate that B and C can also cause things. You're reformed, why don't you study the doctrine of First and Second Causes.

Hey .... wondering is saying that consistent Reformed people like you believe God is Unjust. You're the Calvinism moderator ... why do you let this lie go on ?????? Why are you not speaking up?????

 

[atpollard]

When every other denomination understands it to mean

The Presbyterians don't (at least the ones that refuse to ordain homosexual women as pastors). Nor does the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod [LCMS]. You have a "every other denomination" bias.

Reformed Denominations in Italy:

• The Waldensian Evangelical Church
• The Evangelical Reformed Baptist Churches in Italy
• The Presbyterian Church in Italy

Reformed Denominations in North America:
Presbyterians

• American Presbyterian Church (founded 1979)
• Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (Scots-Irish Presbyterians)
• Bible Presbyterian Church (1937 from the OPC)
• Covenant Presbyterian Church
• Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church
• Covenanting Association of Reformed and Presbyterian Churches
• Cumberland Presbyterian Church
• Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America
• ECO: A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians
• Evangel Presbytery
• Evangelical Assembly of Presbyterian Churches in America
• Evangelical Presbyterian Church
• Faith Presbytery, Bible Presbyterian Church
• Free Church of Scotland - has about 9 congregations in North America
• Free Church of Scotland (Continuing) - has 7 congregations in North America
• Free Presbyterian Church of North America
• Korean-American Presbyterian Church
• Korean Evangelical Presbyterian Church in America
• Korean Presbyterian Church Abroad[22]
• Korean Presbyterian Church in America (Kosin)
• Orthodox Presbyterian Church
• Presbyterian Church in America
• Presbyterian Church in Canada
• Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
• Presbyterian Reformed Church (North America)
• Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly (1990 from the RPCUS)
• Reformed Presbyterian Church - Hanover Presbytery
• Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (RPCNA, Scottish Covenanters)
• Upper Cumberland Presbyterian Church separated from the Cumberland Presbyterian Church
• Vanguard Presbytery

Continental Reformeds

• Alliance of Reformed Churches(founded 2021 out of the RCA)
• Calvin Synod (United Church of Christ)
• Canadian and American Reformed Churches (Dutch Reformed - Liberated)
• Christian Reformed Church in North America (Dutch Reformed - GKN)
• Free Reformed Churches in North America - (Dutch Reformed - CGKN)
• French Protestant (Huguenot) Church, Charleston, SC
• Heritage Netherlands Reformed Congregations
• Hungarian Reformed Church in America
• Kingdom Network (inaugurating September 9, 2021 out of the RCA)
• Lithuanian Evangelical Reformed Church in America
• Netherlands Reformed Congregations
• Protestant Reformed Churches in America (Dutch Reformed - GKN)
• Reformed Congregations in North America
• Reformed Church in the United States (German Reformed)
• Reformed Church in America
• Reformed Church of Quebec
• United Reformed Churches in North America (Dutch Reformed - GKN)

Congregational

• Congregational Christian Churches in Canada

Reformed Anglicans

• Anglican Mission in the Americas
• Reformed Anglican Church
• Reformed Episcopal Church

Reformed Baptist

• Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
• Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals

Others

• Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches
• Puritan Reformed Church
• Newfrontiers in the United States
• Sovereign Grace Churches (Credobaptist, charismatic)

 

[GodsGrace]

Free .... why is it OK for Wondering to say Reformed people like atpollard and I blaspheme God, calling him UNJUST?

I got chastised for allegedly misquoting Wondering on a minor doctrine and admit maybe I misunderstood and asked her to correct me if I was wrong ....yet she has accused us of calling God Unjust which she has done it repeatedly... *Sigh*
Doesn't seem to be a balance here. Where is the Calvinism moderator brightfame52 ... why hasn't He cleaned up the mess on aisle 7 *giggles*

I NEVER said any one on any of these posts blaspheme God.
I said that reformed theology blasphemes God.
And why?
Because it calls something GOOD, EVIL.
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter

If God is not just and sends persons to hell for no reason other than to glorify Himself and for His own pleasure..
He is AN EVIL GOD.

AND I show HOW.
Every theologian outside of the reformed faith agrees WITH ME.
It's not ME saying this...
it's every Christian denomination, including Cathoicism (of which Augustine was a member) that states this.

God is LOVE and MERCIFUL and JUST.
How many times have I posted the verses?
You need them again?

If the bible states that God is JUST,,,,
then He must be JUST.

If the bible states that God is LOVE
then He must be LOVE.
If the bible states that God is MERCIFUL
then He must be MERCIFUL.

Otherwise we could stop using the bible right now since we don't know what kind of God we're dealing with.

How do we trust a God that is not faithful to Himself, as Paul tells us in Timothy.
2 Timothy 2:13
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Psalm 26:3
3for I have always been mindful of your unfailing love
and have lived in reliance on your faithfulness.

How do we follow a God that does not do what He says?
Upon whom we cannot rely?

He'd be worse than some humans.