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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
Oh yeah.
Post Spurgeon as support for your reformed ideas.
That'll certainly convince us non-cals (as you call us).
electedbyhim
Member
No, not non-cals, Arminians.Oh yeah.
Post Spurgeon as support for your reformed ideas.
That'll certainly convince us non-cals (as you call us).
Of course I knew you would object to any answer given you.
Why is it so important for you, that you have a part in salvation. I just do not get it, besides pride of course.
Why cant the Lord have all the glory? Why does sinful man have to get glory in salvation as well?
All men are drawn. When they are drawn they are saved. So its all saved men
I don't really want to discuss Romans 9 either.
I'll leave that up to the big boys.
But did you ever think that it might have something to do with
Romans 1:26
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions;
IOW, maybe God just reaches the point where He says:
OK, that's how you want it...go ahead.
I say this because of the hardening of the heart of Pharaoh.
Exodus has both the fact that P was hardening his own heart,
AND that God was hardening it.
Exodus 8:32
32But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.
Pharaoh hardens his own heart.
Exodus 9:12
And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart...
The LORD hardens Pharaoh's heart.
There's more verses than the above...
just think it's an interesting idea.
Because E, it's what the NT teaches and I like to witness and tell persons that they should turn to God and have their soul saved. I don't think you can say that to anyone because in your belief system it is TOTALLY up to God.
I have to object to your answers - I don't agree with them.
But, really, you can't use Spurgeon (whom I have great admiration for) to support your view to a person (me) that believes the reformed faith is not correct.
I may be a prideful person, I ask forgiveness if I am.
But it's not important to me that I have a part in my salvation.
Jesus did all the saving.
God planned it from the beginning of time because He knew Adam would sin.
All the glory belongs to God for being such a loving God and giving us the grace we need to become saved.
But I don't believe God coerces us into salvation.
I think the part we have is to say YES when He calls us to Himself.
After that, I agree with the reformed, in fact.
We are to be good persons and help with humanity's needs to whatever extent we can,
even if it's only to care properly for our own families.
Sinful man gets no glory in salvation,,,you're absolutely correct.
You know what I say to that BF...
I've said it before....
I can't post images here,,,
so imagine a pretzel, all twisted up.
You really have to jump hurdles to keep to your beliefs.
Could somebody please explain to me what Arminius believed?
Thanks.
electedbyhim
Member
Thank you for an honest answer.
We all can be prideful.
Its called Irresistible Grace.
electedbyhim
Member
| Arminianism | Calvinism |
|---|---|
| Free Will or Human Ability Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation. | Total Inability or Total Depravity Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God. |
| Conditional Election God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation. | Unconditional Election God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation. |
| Universal Redemption or General Atonement Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it. | Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation. |
| The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man. | The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means, of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace. therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended. |
| Falling From Grace Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith. etc. All Arminian, have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated. he can never be lost. | Perseverance of the Saints All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. |
| According to Arminianism Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) - man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, "choose" to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. | According to Calvinism Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. |
What you dont realize is drawing/impelling are the New Birth, so the drawn are saved. Now those who are lost in their sins, they were not drawn by God.
Yes, I know.
I just don't agree with it...
Only the reformed agree with TULIP.
To me, this is a problem.
I believe that the scriptures and what they teach, the things Jesus taught His disciples, to teach their disciples is what we are to be unified about.
JLB
But the NT tells us that God draws, loves, shows mercy, to everyone.
Not just a select few.
I've posted so many verses....
Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, ..
Matthew 5:43
...For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust...
Acts 10:34-35
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
Oh no, Gods Love and Christs death is limited to the elect, and its a number no man can number
Thanks E.
I'll go through it tomorrow morning and report back.
But where does it say that?
I get accused of not using scripture.
Could YOU please use scripture?
I mean,
HOW could you say NO to what is clearly written in the NT (or the OT)??
electedbyhim
Member
I would not say just the Reformed.
You would be surprised that many believe the Doctrines of Grace, but just never heard of Calvin or TULIP.
I'll take your word for it...
I don't know who.