A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[atpollard]

I said:
John 6 and John 10 and Romans 9 all taught the same thing … you just “passed them over”.

I didn't pass ANYTHING over that you posted.

Just a point of clarification:
I was accusing you of passing over where the Apostle John and the Apostle Paul taught the same thing when you read John 6 and John 10 and Romans 9 in your Bible (I was assuming that you had read those chapters at some point in your life, which seemed like a safe bet).

 

[Paul E. Michael]

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Why is God wrathful about anything that comes to pass if He "from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"?

 

[brightfame52]

For their sins? That's not what TULIP teaches. TULIP teaches that God predestinated some from all eternity to go into the lake of fire for His fiat.



According to you, though, and contra-TULIP, something external to God caused Him to predestinate some people to burn in the lake of fire: viz., their sins. If their sins caused God to do that, then He did not do that freely.

Yes for their sins, Jesus declares some will die in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
They shall die in their sins because He didnt die for them, because they were vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction.

According to you, though, and contra-TULIP, something external to God caused Him to predestinate some people to burn in the lake of fire: viz., their sins.

Please dont lie on me, Nothing external caused God to do anything, thats Blasphemy. Gods own will and purpose within Himself is the cause of Him creating the vessels of wrath and fitting them for destruction and the cause of Him creating the vessels of Mercy unto Eternal Glory.

 

[brightfame52]

Ok great.

Please answer my question from this scripture.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Question —

Do you believe we remain “in Christ” by obeying Him; by keeping His commandments?

If no then why?




JLB

Rabbit trail, this discussion is about the total depravity of man, which is a Gospel Doctrine, do you want to discuss that ?

 

[brightfame52]

Why is God wrathful about anything that comes to pass if He "from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"?

God is wrathful at things because He wants to be, everything God does is according to His own will and pleasure.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your statements confuse me sometimes … What do you mean “IF God changes our heart” …

• Ezekiel 36:26 [CSB] "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
• Philippians 2:13 [CSB] For it is God who is working in you both to will and to work according to his good purpose.

… do you believe these Bible verses or don’t you? Neither John Calvin nor any Reformed Theologian wrote them.

A,
I believe the entire bible to be God's revelation to us so that we can know Him and have a relationship with Him, the creator of the universe. This is a daunting thought at times.

You're confused because of your belief system. No other Christian on this site would be confused by what I've stated.

It IS God that gives us a new heart. I think I even stated this.
However, we have to WANT that new heart, and we have to want it freely.
Romans 6 states that we are slaves TO WHOM WE PRESENT OURSELVES.
WE PRESENT OURSELVES.
This requires action on our part.

Plus, Ezekiel is referring to the New Covenant.
Anyone can be in the New Covenant, but the person has to WANT to be there.
Seek ye first the Kingdom of God....
It's up to us to seek the Kingdom.
God doesn't pluck us up into heaven like an alien into some alien ship.
God INVITES us - Revelation 3:20 He stands at the door and knocks.
WE have to let God in.

Then the Holy Spirit helps us to obey God and to be transformed every more into the likeness of Jesus.
Something you also believe. We just don't agree on how we get there.

Philippians 2:13
Paul tells the P that they are to work hard to show the results of their salvation.
Again, why - if Paul knew that it would be up to God to have had PREDESTINATED everything they did.

And yes, all we Christians agree, God, through the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent as a helper, indeed helps us to be transformed and to be helped to do and want what God wants.

If God were doing all the work, there would be no real reason to have the NT.
God would have predestinated everything that is written there. (men's actions and beliefs).

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 5:48 [CSB] "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Is man “CAPABLE of doing it”?

I gave the above a full answer.
Didn't you see it?

Do you think Jesus meant that we are to be perfect?
Did Jesus not know our nature?

Please see the other post re this.

 

[GodsGrace]

God is wrathful at things because He wants to be, everything God does is according to His own will and pleasure.

This is the problem BF.
Read again what Paul E. Michael is stating...it's very important.

How many times have I said that the reformed faith is not logical.
I don't say this to be mean, but because it's true....

Here's what the other member said:

Why is God wrathful about anything that comes to pass if He "from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"?


Try it this way:
If it's God that predestinates EVERYTHING from all eternity....
and everything happens just as God predestinated because He is, after all, sovereign...
then WHY would God BE ANGRY about something that comes to pass?

Is He angry with Himself??
Did He plan wrongly?

See, it does not make logical sense.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is not what those verses say. You are redefining the words of John 6 and John 10 to fit your doctrine.

Just as you do my friend.

However, my "redefinition" agrees with the rest of scripture.

 

[Hopeful]

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" [Romans 9:19 NASB]

Paul anticipated your question. Why settle for MY answer when you can go and read GOD’s answer?

So it is God's will that so many resist the draws of love, grace, and justice.
That puts the "fear of God" in a whole new light.

Do you feel that God will eventually show His mercy, kindness, and eternal salvation to those He hardened in order to make His glory known?

 

[GodsGrace]

You should reread my post, because this is a non sequitur to what I said.

• I never said I dislike Calvin.
• “My Confession” is the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message which is neither Particular Baptist nor General Baptist. (So it is Calvinist/Arminian neutral).
• I know who John Calvin is.

All of your statements about my beliefs are false and none are based on what I actually said about Calvin and your personal obsession with his writings.

I told you that I base what I know about Calvinism on those that believed as John Calvin did.
I read thru his Institutes and do not remember everything I read, but it was pretty distressing to say the least.
Also, I'm familiar with the WCF and the 1648 (or is it 96) Confession of Faith.

I don't claim to know every single Calvinist writing, but the above 3 tell me all I need to know.
You don't agree with all of them, but I'm not going to learn a new Confession.

However, basically they're all the same.

There are persons on this thread who claim to be calvinist,
but do not believe what calvin wrote.
The confessions are based on what Calvin taught.

I find this strange.

 

[Hopeful]

Not like a fish in a net or Paul being dragged by an angry mob. I suspect there might be another Greek word for that, but John did not use it in John 6:44; he used the word used for fish in a net and Paul dragged by an angry mob or a soldier drawing his sword from its scabbard. [those are the other BIBLICAL uses of that word]

One "draw" is of our own free will, and the other is at the hands of someone else.
Don't you see any difference?

 

[GodsGrace]

… as you have taken it upon yourself to redefine “Calvinism the Strawman”.

No strawman.

I post support for everything I say.

You must be tired.
We could stop for now.
No answer to 747.
I like serious conversation...I know it can be tiring.
(It's not tiring to me)

 

[Hopeful]

You merely ASSUME that because God commanded something that man is capable of doing it … not seeking God without the IRRESISTIBLE DRAW of God. (“I have chosen you.” … a popular saying of God to men).

”BE YE HOLY AS GOD IS HOLY” … God commanded it, do people obey? Are some people perfectly Holy “AS GOD IS HOLY”? … Are people capable of doing it?

Yes, men are capable of obedience to God and being perfect as God is perfect. (Matt 5:48)

 

[JLB]

So does Lk 15:6

And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

Yes, His sheep can indeed become lost.

Do the lost need salvation?



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

God is wrathful at things because He wants to be, everything God does is according to His own will and pleasure.

I am sure glad that God made a way to convert from "depraved" to "sanctified" before it is too late for us.

 

[GodsGrace]

I did (Post #782).

• I answered EVERY question you posted with a response supported by both exegesis and scripture.
• I did not refute your posted verses because I agree with the word of God.
• I did not argue with your stated opinions because opinions are like belly buttons … everyone has one.

OK. That was your full resonse?
You did reply to my questions.

My reply to you was full of scripture.
I was expecting you to explain why I understand the verses wrongly since you seem not to agree.

That, it seems to me, is the important reason to converse.
If you agree with the word of God, you should definitely reply to someone that does not understand it. Possibly me.

And I don't give opinions.
Everything I say is backed up with scripture.

Here's some homework for you:
Proverbs 3:5-6
1My son, do not forget my teaching,
But let your heart keep my commandments;
2For length of days and years of life
And peace they will add to you.

3Do not let kindness and truth leave you;
Bind them around your neck,
Write them on the tablet of your heart.

4So you will find favor and good repute
In the sight of God and man.

5Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.

6In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.


We can learn a lot from the above.

1. God asks us to keep His commands in our heart. As if it were up to us to do it.
2. His commandments will add peace to our hearts - not God's predestinating the peace to us.
3. We are to keep kindness and truth and not let it depart. Some more we must do on our own.
4. The above is how we will find favor with God. God does not CHOOSE US to find favor in Him.
5. We are to trust in the Lord. Does this mean He did not predestinate our trust in Him?
6. We MUST ACKNOWLEDGE HIM (seek Him) and THEN He will make our path straight.

(all of the above with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course).

 

[GodsGrace]

Just a point of clarification:
I was accusing you of passing over where the Apostle John and the Apostle Paul taught the same thing when you read John 6 and John 10 and Romans 9 in your Bible (I was assuming that you had read those chapters at some point in your life, which seemed like a safe bet).

I understood you A.
Are you going to become sarcastic like the others on here?

I replied to you perfectly.

There's even a language question involved with John 10:29 but I'm not getting into it because it's secondary.

What is important here is that the actual nature of God is being changed by the teachings of the reformed.

 

[Fastfredy0]

All men are called by God.

Ridiculous and ignorant of facts.
Billions of people have died never hearing of Christ and therefore no call was made. IT'S A FACT.

Aside: Yeah, I know you believe Muslims can be saved by another gospel you hold (said R.C. gospel of men or your own personal gospel you will not defend)

 

[atpollard]

So it is God's will that so many resist the draws of love, grace, and justice.
That puts the "fear of God" in a whole new light.

Is that what you read in Romans? (I would take God’s answer over my answer.)

Do you feel that God will eventually show His mercy, kindness, and eternal salvation to those He hardened in order to make His glory known?

No. Romans 9 suggests otherwise:

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His powerknown, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?” Romans 9:22