A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[Hopeful]

Is that what you read in Romans? (I would take God’s answer over my answer.)
No. Romans 9 suggests otherwise:
“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His powerknown, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?” Romans 9:22

I think that verse can be applied to certain times and circumstances, peoples or nations, like Pharaoh, or the Egyptians, Assyrians, or the Babylonians.
Each created for a purpose, to show the grace and/or vengeance of God.
But I can't apply it to everyone.
Otherwise His hope that all would be saved, (1 Tim 2:4), would be a lie...wouldn't it?

 

[Hopeful]

The facts speak for themselves.
1) Billions of people died never hearing of Christ
2) The Bible says one must have faith in Christ of salvation
God has NOT REVEALED Himself in such a way as to give billions of people a chance to believe and be saved

Now, you believe in WORKS salvation and your previous comment that Muslims can be saved without Christ reveal your theology is another gospel of salvation not spoken of in Scripture. Perhaps you got your idea from your holy father the pope, but not from scripture.

Aside: Anyone here been saved without Christ? How was this done? Wondering never gives the process for salvation without Christ (maybe because it's not scriptural), yet she espouses it. I know the R.C.s believe they save themselves via faith in Christ and works ... but Wondering presents a new gospel. Gal. 1:8

How do you know that anyone has not heard of Christ or the resurrection?

 

[Iconoclast]

I did not say you are corned. I said you are  cornered. And you still are cornered, as you're still stonewalling against the question I've been asking you:

Iconoclast: <NO ANSWER>

I did answer;
God has predestined the elect to be conformed to the image of the Son.
rom.8:
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?

I do not see Hell mentioned,do you? I am really cornered....

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL, what?? "Lie on" you??

Those on our side of the fence are considered liars here.
Get used to it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not lying. Take your own advice.

There's your causal "for their sins" yet again. That's you contradicting yourself yet again.

No one is condemned FOR their sins.
brightfame52 would have to admit that the reformed believe persons are condemned because God arbitrarily decided to condemn them,,,pass over them,,,without giving them a chance to repent.

I guess some calvinists here don't understand this or it's such a grave idea that they don't care to understand this.

 

[brightfame52]

If that is true in an absolute sense then either:
A) God causes peole to sin (i.e. God caused Joe to kill Sam)
or
B) man is the first cause of sin ... in which case God does react to that (Joe killed Sam to which God will react; either forgiving or condemning)

God is the first cause of all things, everything, everyone has being of existence because God purposed it for His own will and pleasure. To say God reacts to His creation of which He created for Himself to serve His Purpose, is Blasphemy to highest heavens in my opinion.

 

[brightfame52]

No one is condemned FOR their sins.
brightfame52 would have to admit that the reformed believe persons are condemned because God arbitrarily decided to condemn them,,,pass over them,,,without giving them a chance to repent.

I guess some calvinists here don't understand this or it's such a grave idea that they don't care to understand this.

God made the wicked reprobate to condemn them justly for their sins, its simple. God made the sinful elect to show them mercy for their sins in and through Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

God made the wicked reprobate to condemn them justly for their sins, its simple. God made the sinful elect to show them mercy for their sins in and through Jesus Christ.

It's not so simple BF.
What you describe above is not justice but injustice.

We know from scripture that God is just.
So something here is eschew.

Deuteronomy 3:24
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.

Psalm 89:14
“Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.”

 

[atpollard]

How do you know that anyone has not heard of Christ or the resurrection?

How did Moctezuma I, the grandfather of Moctezuma II (last emperor of the Aztec Empire), hear of Christ or the Resurrection? Moctezuma I died when Moctezuma II was 3 years old ... in 1469. Columbus arrived in the "New World" with the Gospel in the 1490s. The first contact between the Aztec and the Spanish was in 1519.

 

[GodsGrace]

How did Moctezuma I, the grandfather of Moctezuma II (last emperor of the Aztec Empire), hear of Christ or the Resurrection? Moctezuma I died when Moctezuma II was 3 years old ... in 1469. Columbus arrived in the "New World" with the Gospel in the 1490s. The first contact between the Aztec and the Spanish was in 1519.

God always existed.
Jesus is God.
The above brings up many problems if you're correct.
FF has a problem understanding this.
I can't believe you do...

 

[atpollard]

No one is condemned FOR their sins.
@brightfame52 would have to admit that the reformed believe persons are condemned because God arbitrarily decided to condemn them,,,pass over them,,,without giving them a chance to repent.

I guess some calvinists here don't understand this or it's such a grave idea that they don't care to understand this.

So GOD owes you (and everyone else) forgiveness for your willful acts of rebellion and disobedience?
How non-Biblical an idea.

Sinners are condemned for their sin.
Saints are forgiven because God "will show mercy to anyone [He] chooses, and [He] will show compassion to anyone [He] chooses. So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it." [Romans 9:15-16 NLT]

 

[atpollard]

The above brings up many problems if you're correct.

I am correct: Moctezuma I is the grandfather of Moctezuma II and he died before Columbus set sail.
So how did he hear the Gospel?

 

[atpollard]

It's not so simple BF.
What you describe above is not justice but injustice.

We know from scripture that God is just.
So something here is eschew.

What is unjust about condemning the wicked for their sins? I thought that was the DEFINITION of Justice. Doesn't that make HELL itself unjust?

 

[atpollard]

To say God reacts to His creation of which He created for Himself to serve His Purpose, is Blasphemy to highest heavens in my opinion.

"Error" seems more likely than "Blasphemy".
Could you define "Blasphemy"? (from Scripture would be worth bonus points).

 

[atpollard]

No one is condemned FOR their sins.

"But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin." Romans 14:23 [NKJV]

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord GOD. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!" Ezekiel 18:30-32 [NKJV]

 

[GodsGrace]

So GOD owes you (and everyone else) forgiveness for your willful acts of rebellion and disobedience?
How non-Biblical an idea.

This is silly and I'm not replying.

Sinners are condemned for their sin.
Saints are forgiven because God "will show mercy to anyone [He] chooses, and [He] will show compassion to anyone [He] chooses. So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it." [Romans 9:15-16 NLT]

I'm starting a thread on Romans 9.
The above is not speaking about individuals but about salvation being offered to all.

Incorrect biblical beliefs unfortunately affect every aspect of Christianity.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am correct: Moctezuma I is the grandfather of Moctezuma II and he died before Columbus set sail.
So how did he hear the Gospel?

I think you're saying that everyone who did not hear about Jesus was lost.
Does that include everyone in the OT?

 

[GodsGrace]

What is unjust about condemning the wicked for their sins? I thought that was the DEFINITION of Justice. Doesn't that make HELL itself unjust?

Thd reformed refuse to understand what justice is.
I'm wont to repeat the same stuff over and over.

What does justice mean?
We had just gone over this 2 days ago.

 

[GodsGrace]

"But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin." Romans 14:23 [NKJV]

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord GOD. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!" Ezekiel 18:30-32 [NKJV]

Agreed.

But this is different.
If I sin today, I am not condemned.

 

[atpollard]

I think you're saying that everyone who did not hear about Jesus was lost.
Does that include everyone in the OT?

I am saying that everyone that did not hear the Gospel ... did not hear the gospel.
While that seems foolishly self-evident, there are many here claiming that even those that have never heard the Gospel have heard of Jesus and his Resurrection and can, therefore, choose Jesus and be saved. So I gave one example of one person, by name, who without any doubt never heard the gospel and asked "How did he hear the gospel?" to those that claim EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has heard the gospel.

(The question of who is saved is more complex, but boils down to ... God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.” So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. Romans 9:15-16 [NLT] )