A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[GodsGrace]

I am saying that everyone that did not hear the Gospel ... did not hear the gospel.
While that seems foolishly self-evident, there are many here claiming that even those that have never heard the Gospel have heard of Jesus and his Resurrection and can, therefore, choose Jesus and be saved. So I gave one example of one person, by name, who without any doubt never heard the gospel and asked "How did he hear the gospel?" to those that claim EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has heard the gospel.

(The question of who is saved is more complex, but boils down to ... God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.” So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. Romans 9:15-16 [NLT] )

Yes, regarding the first paragraph, of course that's right.
Some here believe that if they never heard of JESUS, they cannot be saved.
That's different, but we'll leave it at that.

 

[brightfame52]

It's not so simple BF.
What you describe above is not justice but injustice.

We know from scripture that God is just.
So something here is eschew.

Deuteronomy 3:24
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.

Psalm 89:14
“Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.”

Yes its simple to me, God makes people to do whatever He wants to with them, like a potter over a clay. the clay doesnt have any say so, its just clay. It cant do nothing about how God forms it lol. And God isnt under anybody's laws

 

[brightfame52]

"Error" seems more likely than "Blasphemy".
Could you define "Blasphemy"? (from Scripture would be worth bonus points).

Look the word up

 

[JLB]

Rabbit trail, this discussion is about the total depravity of man, which is a Gospel Doctrine, do you want to discuss that ?

No rabbit trail, just your refusal to acknowledge the truth of the scriptures in favor of your doctrine of man.


If you believe believe man is totally depraved and does not have the ability to obey God, unless he is born again, then would man be able to obey the Lord after he is man is born again?


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

No rabbit trail, just your refusal to acknowledge the truth of the scriptures in favor of your doctrine of man.


If you believe believe man is totally depraved and does not have the ability to obey God, unless he is born again, then would man be able to obey the Lord after he is man is born again?


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB

Sure its a rabbit trail, thats all you do !

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes its simple to me, God makes people to do whatever He wants to with them, like a potter over a clay. the clay doesnt have any say so, its just clay. It cant do nothing about how God forms it lol. And God isnt under anybody's laws

So, like, if you sin, it's God that made you do it?

 

[atpollard]

To say God reacts to His creation of which He created for Himself to serve His Purpose, is Blasphemy to highest heavens in my opinion.

Look the word up

Blasphemy [Merriam-Webster]
1a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God
1b : the act of claiming the attributes of a deity
2 : irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable

So which of these definitions does saying "God reacts to His creation" fall under?

• 1a ... it doesn't seem insulting or contemptuous.
• 1b ... it doesn't claim the attributes of a deity
• 2 ... what "sacred or inviolable" thing was it irreverent towards?

Did God react to Adam's sin by casting them out of Eden?
Was Jesus' incarnation a reaction to something in God's creation (lost men needing a savior)?

Your opinion seems both unfounded and unsupported.

 

[Hopeful]

How did Moctezuma I, the grandfather of Moctezuma II (last emperor of the Aztec Empire), hear of Christ or the Resurrection? Moctezuma I died when Moctezuma II was 3 years old ... in 1469. Columbus arrived in the "New World" with the Gospel in the 1490s. The first contact between the Aztec and the Spanish was in 1519.

I though it was "Mo"N"tezuma"?
3 year olds have nothing to repent of so will see an eternal judgement reflecting that.
I believe that if anyone really wants to know God, and to do His will, God will not hide from him/her.
If the message isn't there, it is because nobody wanted it.

 

[Hopeful]

So GOD owes you (and everyone else) forgiveness for your willful acts of rebellion and disobedience?
How non-Biblical an idea.

Sinners are condemned for their sin.
Saints are forgiven because God "will show mercy to anyone [He] chooses, and [He] will show compassion to anyone [He] chooses. So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it." [Romans 9:15-16 NLT]

Do you think He chose to forgive you?
What was your proof?

 

[atpollard]

I though it was "Mo"N"tezuma"?
3 year olds have nothing to repent of so will see an eternal judgement reflecting that.
I believe that if anyone really wants to know God, and to do His will, God will not hide from him/her.
If the message isn't there, it is because nobody wanted it.

He died in Mexico in 1469. Columbus set sail for the New World with the Gospel in 1492. The first Spanish arrived in Mexico with the gospel in 1519. For an old man to hear "the message" and "really want to know God" 50 years after he has died is quite a trick.

Do you think He chose to forgive you?

Yes.

What was your proof?

You are still alive and I have not been banned. (You never knew the OLD me.)

 

[brightfame52]

So, like, if you sin, it's God that made you do it?

Im not getting into all that. However I am and you are and everyone one else is exactly what God made them to be.

 

[GodsGrace]

Im not getting into all that. However I am and you are and everyone one else is exactly what God made them to be.

That sounds like a good excuse for when I sin.
God made me do it.
Yeah.
That's the ticket.

 

[JLB]

Sure its a rabbit trail, thats all you do !

Again, in your opinion --

If you believe believe man is totally depraved and does not have the ability to obey God, unless he is born again, then would man be able to obey the Lord after he is man is born again?


Again, here is how the truth instructs us, those who are born again, to remain in Christ;


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

No one is condemned FOR their sins.
brightfame52 would have to admit that the reformed believe persons are condemned because God arbitrarily decided to condemn them,,,pass over them,,,without giving them a chance to repent.

I guess some calvinists here don't understand this or it's such a grave idea that they don't care to understand this.

Everyone is justly condemned for their sins.
The whole world is condemned.
They are free to do what they want.
What they want is sin.
Getting the fall wrong leads to these theological blunders.

 

[brightfame52]

That sounds like a good excuse for when I sin.
God made me do it.
Yeah.
That's the ticket.

If thats how you look at it, may God have mercy on you !

 

[brightfame52]

Again, in your opinion --

If you believe believe man is totally depraved and does not have the ability to obey God, unless he is born again, then would man be able to obey the Lord after he is man is born again?


Again, here is how the truth instructs us, those who are born again, to remain in Christ;


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB

Yeah in my opinion.

If you believe believe man is totally depraved and does not have the ability to obey God, unless he is born again, then would man be able to obey the Lord after he is man is born again?

Yes after a man is born again he obeys, thats why God gives him the Spirit, its unto obedience 1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

See obedience follows the Sanctification of the Spirit which is the New Birth. Until that happens, man is dead to God, he is at enmity against God, the True God that is Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Until we are born anew, we are in the flesh

 

[Paul E. Michael]

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Yes its simple to me, God makes people to do whatever He wants to with them, like a potter over a clay.

So, according to you, God makes the thing formed say to Him that formed it, "Why hast thou made me thus?" Is the potter putting those words into the clay's mouth, then? And if so, then what's the difference between "Why hast thou made me thus?" and "Thus saith the LORD"?

 

[JLB]

Yeah in my opinion.

So you do believe a born again person who is no longer totally depraved can indeed obey the Lord?

 

[Paul E. Michael]

I'm hoping wondering, JLB, and Hopeful, all of whom I've seen frequenting this thread in the last few days, might do me the favor of reading this post of mine and vouching for it--that it is here, in this thread, presently--in case it gets deleted, as my previous post did.*

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Dont lie

I'm not lying. Take your own advice.

, Nothing caused God to do anything except His Own Purpose. It was His Own Purpose to make people to condemn them for their sins.

You said that God predestinated certain people to burn in hell (and I quote you) "for their sins", which is to say that God predestinated them to burn in hell because of their sins--in other words, that their sins caused God to predestinate them to burn in hell. So, you therein contradict what you say out of the other side of your mouth: viz., that nothing causes God to do anything.

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*This post is as exact and complete a reconstruction from memory as I can presently muster of a post I had posted in this thread, yesterday, in reply to brightfame52's post, but which someone since deleted from the thread. I do not know who deleted it, but no reason for its deletion was given me. I have not been informed as to what in the TOS my now-deleted post is supposed to have been in violation. I used no name-calling, nor any derogatory, personal attack language in it. But it got deleted, and with no explanation why from whoever deleted it. I'm not accusing anyone of ill motive for having deleted it; I just want to know why it was deleted. I'm not accusing anyone of ill motive for having deleted it; I just want to know why it was deleted, because I'd like to notify the Staff if there is a problem of posts being erroneously or illegitimately deleted from threads on TULIP theology/Calvinism.

 

[JLB]

Yeah in my opinion.



Yes after a man is born again he obeys, thats why God gives him the Spirit, its unto obedience 1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

See obedience follows the Sanctification of the Spirit which is the New Birth. Until that happens, man is dead to God, he is at enmity against God, the True God that is Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Until we are born anew, we are in the flesh

Do you believe a born again person, someone who is "in Christ" can walk according to the Spirit?