A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[GodsGrace]

I'm hoping wondering, JLB, and Hopeful, all of whom I've seen frequenting this thread in the last few days, might do me the favor of reading this post of mine and vouching for it--that it is here, in this thread, presently--in case it gets deleted, as my previous post did.*

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I'm not lying. Take your own advice.

You said that God predestinated certain people to burn in hell (and I quote you) "for their sins", which is to say that God predestinated them to burn in hell because of their sins--in other words, that their sins caused God to predestinate them to burn in hell. So, you therein contradict what you say out of the other side of your mouth: viz., that nothing causes God to do anything.

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*This post is as exact and complete a reconstruction from memory as I can presently muster of a post I had posted in this thread, yesterday, in reply to brightfame52's post, but which someone since deleted from the thread. I do not know who deleted it, but no reason for its deletion was given me. I have not been informed as to what in the TOS my now-deleted post is supposed to have been in violation. I used no name-calling, nor any derogatory, personal attack language in it. But it got deleted, and with no explanation why from whoever deleted it. I'm not accusing anyone of ill motive for having deleted it; I just want to know why it was deleted. I'm not accusing anyone of ill motive for having deleted it; I just want to know why it was deleted, because I'd like to notify the Staff if there is a problem of posts being erroneously or illegitimately deleted from threads on TULIP theology/Calvinism.

Any problem you're having in this thread should be brought to the attention of the owner of the forum, if it's regarding the overseeing of this thread, or any other thread in Calvinism.
Staff cannot help.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm hoping wondering, JLB, and Hopeful, all of whom I've seen frequenting this thread in the last few days, might do me the favor of reading this post of mine and vouching for it--that it is here, in this thread, presently--in case it gets deleted, as my previous post did.*

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---

I'm not lying. Take your own advice.

You said that God predestinated certain people to burn in hell (and I quote you) "for their sins", which is to say that God predestinated them to burn in hell because of their sins--in other words, that their sins caused God to predestinate them to burn in hell. So, you therein contradict what you say out of the other side of your mouth: viz., that nothing causes God to do anything.

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*This post is as exact and complete a reconstruction from memory as I can presently muster of a post I had posted in this thread, yesterday, in reply to brightfame52's post, but which someone since deleted from the thread. I do not know who deleted it, but no reason for its deletion was given me. I have not been informed as to what in the TOS my now-deleted post is supposed to have been in violation. I used no name-calling, nor any derogatory, personal attack language in it. But it got deleted, and with no explanation why from whoever deleted it. I'm not accusing anyone of ill motive for having deleted it; I just want to know why it was deleted. I'm not accusing anyone of ill motive for having deleted it; I just want to know why it was deleted, because I'd like to notify the Staff if there is a problem of posts being erroneously or illegitimately deleted from threads on TULIP theology/Calvinism.

You were searching for tos violations the other day. Now it came to bite you,lol

 

[Paul E. Michael]

You were searching for tos violations the other day.

The ones I found are still there. What's your point?

In addition, your post #942 is an example of you trolling this thread. Be careful.

Now it came to bite you,lol

What do you mean?

 

[brightfame52]

So, according to you, God makes the thing formed say to Him that formed it, "Why hast thou made me thus?" Is the potter putting those words into the clay's mouth, then? And if so, then what's the difference between "Why hast thou made me thus?" and "Thus saith the LORD"?

It's not difficult, Go makes people for His own purposes.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

It's not difficult, Go makes people for His own purposes.

You already said that. Please answer the questions I asked you:

[Does God make] the thing formed say to Him that formed it, "Why hast thou made me thus?" [Yes or No?]

Is the potter putting those words into the clay's mouth, then? [Yes or No?]

And if so, then what's the difference between "Why hast thou made me thus?" and "Thus saith the LORD"?

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe a born again person, someone who is "in Christ" can walk according to the Spirit?

I think he answered that …

Yes after a man is born again he obeys, thats why God gives him the Spirit, its unto obedience

 

[Hopeful]

He died in Mexico in 1469. Columbus set sail for the New World with the Gospel in 1492. The first Spanish arrived in Mexico with the gospel in 1519. For an old man to hear "the message" and "really want to know God" 50 years after he has died is quite a trick.

The man didn't WANT to hear a message of or from God, so he did not ever hear it.

Yes.

What is the proof that you were "chosen" for eternal life?
How many other "non-chosens" think they are "chosen"?
Do you have any proof you are one of the few God ordained for eternal life

You are still alive and I have not been banned. (You never knew the OLD me.)

What does my living have to do with proving you were forgiven?

You have written that God picks and chooses who will or will not be saved.
Do those who were chosen have some proof so they are not running around with false hopes?
Or is it just self-determined?

 

[brightfame52]

You already said that. Please answer the questions I asked you:

I know I already said it, thats really all needed to be said, you either believe it or you dont.

 

[GodsGrace]

Im not getting into all that. However I am and you are and everyone one else is exactly what God made them to be.

Why aren't you getting into "all that"?
Is it difficult for you to admit that if God predestinated EVERYTHING,
then He also predestinated the salvation of man
AND
He decreed every action of man - even sinful actions, all the way up to murder.
And there's worse stuff than that...
God created, decreed, and predestinated "all of that"?

 

[GodsGrace]

The man didn't WANT to hear a message of or from God, so he did not ever hear it.

What is the proof that you were "chosen" for eternal life?
How many other "non-chosens" think they are "chosen"?
Do you have any proof you are one of the few God ordained for eternal life

What does my living have to do with proving you were forgiven?

You have written that God picks and chooses who will or will not be saved.
Do those who were chosen have some proof so they are not running around with false hopes?
Or is it just self-determined?

This is a big problem for many reformed.
Some leave Christianity altogether because they're never sure whether or not they're one of the elect.
The teaching is that if they continue in a life without sin, it's a sign of being chosen by God...
but if they sin - what does that mean?
That they are not of the chosen?
One of the top 2, can't remember which, Piper or MacArthur, told a sobbing girl that if she didn't feel saved, then she most probably wasn't.
Nice.

 

[GodsGrace]

Everyone is justly condemned for their sins.
The whole world is condemned.
They are free to do what they want.
What they want is sin.
Getting the fall wrong leads to these theological blunders.

Icon,
The reformed have everything wrong.
Or,
everything from the past 2,000 years was wrong.
I'll stick to the early church every time.

 

[GodsGrace]

If thats how you look at it, may God have mercy on you !

Well, actually BF,,,it's what YOU believe.

If I sin today, it's because God decreed me to sin from before the foundation of time.
Either that, or you don't understand calvinism (but I think you do).

I think.
Who can be sure....you guys never state exactly what you believe. (except for atpollard).

 

[GodsGrace]

I know I already said it, thats really all needed to be said, you either believe it or you dont.

You really find it difficult to stand up for your faith.

Also, you DO need to let me know why you deleted my post.
You can't just delete posts for no reason.

 

[brightfame52]

Why aren't you getting into "all that"?
Is it difficult for you to admit that if God predestinated EVERYTHING,
then He also predestinated the salvation of man
AND
He decreed every action of man - even sinful actions, all the way up to murder.
And there's worse stuff than that...
God created, decreed, and predestinated "all of that"?

I've admitted or testified that God predestined all things. So that settles it in my mind. So sin is included. Accountability for sin is included, being punished for sin is included, being Justified from all sin is included, so draw your own logical conclusions.

 

[brightfame52]

Well, actually BF,,,it's what YOU believe.

If I sin today, it's because God decreed me to sin from before the foundation of time.
Either that, or you don't understand calvinism (but I think you do).

I think.
Who can be sure....you guys never state exactly what you believe. (except for atpollard).

You show that you have a carnal way of looking at the things of God, not Spiritual at all

 

[brightfame52]

You really find it difficult to stand up for your faith.

Also, you DO need to let me know why you deleted my post.
You can't just delete posts for no reason.

My Faith declares that God predestinated all things, sin included. If God didnt purpose sin into His world, trust me, it wouldnt be in His World. It wont be in the world to come because He hasnt purposed it to be. But you may feel that what God purposes may not always be as He purposed it, right ?

 

[GodsGrace]

I've admitted or testified that God predestined all things. So that settles it in my mind. So sin is included. Accountability for sin is included, being punished for sin is included, being Justified from all sin is included, so draw your own logical conclusions.

Thanks BF.
Nothing more to add.

The problem I have is with the reformed that are not willing to admit to the teachings of Calvinism,
however softened they might be in the Confessions, they still state the same doctrine,
and they cannot accept their own faith.

You can. So I respect you for that.

 

[GodsGrace]

You show that you have a carnal way of looking at the things of God, not Spiritual at all

That is your opinion.
I'm not going to justify myself to you but only God knows me.

 

[GodsGrace]

My Faith declares that God predestinated all things, sin included. If God didnt purpose sin into His world, trust me, it wouldnt be in His World. It wont be in the world to come because He hasnt purposed it to be. But you may feel that what God purposes may not always be as He purposed it, right ?

No.
I believe that God has a plan and that plan will come to fruition.
I believe God created man with free will and this is what makes man responsible for his sins and why God allowing that man that sins to go to be without God after death is just.
Those that wish to be with God WILL be with God after death.
They will freely choose God as John 3:16 states and they will spend eternity with God.

What I believe is unjust in the reformed faith is that God chooses (predestinates) persons to either heaven or hell
with no reason at all other than that it pleases Him. This is unjust.

The bible represents God as being a just God, so I have to go with the second explanation and allow God to keep His nature in tact. Calvinism changes the nature of God.

God USES our free will to make come about what HE wishes.
Often we post about Joseph. His brothers meant it for evil...
but God USED IT for good.
God will always attain the end HE wishes, but it's done through our free will.

We are, after all, made in the image of God and God surely has free will.

 

[atpollard]

The man didn't WANT to hear a message of or from God, so he did not ever hear it.

The man "Didn't want to hear" a message that wouldn't arrive until 50 years after he died ... that is your position. So the Native Americans living in the First Century would have just lived 1500 years if they really wanted to hear a message from God.

Thanks, I needed that laugh.