A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[atpollard]

What is the proof that you were "chosen" for eternal life?

I'll show you mine when you show me yours.
[After your comment about Native Americans, I suspect you are a bad AI.]

 

[atpollard]

Why aren't you getting into "all that"?
Is it difficult for you to admit that if God predestinated EVERYTHING,
then He also predestinated the salvation of man
AND
He decreed every action of man - even sinful actions, all the way up to murder.
And there's worse stuff than that...
God created, decreed, and predestinated "all of that"?

Umm ...

Is Salvation a THING?
You said: "Is it difficult for you to admit that if God predestinated EVERYTHING, then He also predestinated the salvation of man", but your conclusion only follows from your premise if SALVATION is a THING. You are being sloppy with your statements.

The BIBLE says this about "predestined" (quoted in whole paragraphs for context):

• Acts 4:27-31 [CSB] 27 "For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, 28 "to do whatever your hand and your will had predestined to take place. 29 "And now, Lord, consider their threats, and grant that your servants may speak your word with all boldness, 30 "while you stretch out your hand for healing, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus." 31 When they had prayed, the place where they were assembled was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God boldly.
  • God predestined actions to take place.
• Romans 8:28-30 [CSB] 28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.
  • God predestines people (to be called and conformed to the image of Christ).
• 1 Corinthians 2:6-9 [CSB] 6 We do, however, speak a wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age, or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 On the contrary, we speak God's hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, because if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, What no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no human heart has conceived -- God has prepared these things for those who love him.
  • God predestines a hidden wisdom to be revealed to "Christians".
• Ephesians 1:3-6, 11-12 [CSB] 3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavens in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in love before him. 5 He predestined us to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ for himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace that he lavished on us in the Beloved One. ... 11 In him we have also received an inheritance, because we were predestined according to the plan of the one who works out everything in agreement with the purpose of his will, 12 so that we who had already put our hope in Christ might bring praise to his glory.
  • God predestines people (to be adopted as sons, according to His plan).

So according to GOD, this is what HE predestines (not a "thing" and not "everything").

 

[brightfame52]

That is your opinion.
I'm not going to justify myself to you but only God knows me.

I believe its a carnal way of reasoning to think that because all is of grace, that constitutes a green light to live as we will. To me that's carnality and selfishness. I believe Salvation being totally of Grace gives the foundation for love and gratitude to God, and to serve Him from that motive.

 

[atpollard]

This is a big problem for many reformed.
Some leave Christianity altogether because they're never sure whether or not they're one of the elect.

Since "ELECT" is a Biblical term and not something that Reformed Theologians invented, How are YOU SURE that you are one of the Elect?

• 2 Timothy 2:10 [CSB] 10 This is why I endure all things for the elect: so that they also may obtain salvation, which is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

 

[brightfame52]

No.
I believe that God has a plan and that plan will come to fruition.
I believe God created man with free will and this is what makes man responsible for his sins and why God allowing that man that sins to go to be without God after death is just.
Those that wish to be with God WILL be with God after death.
They will freely choose God as John 3:16 states and they will spend eternity with God.

What I believe is unjust in the reformed faith is that God chooses (predestinates) persons to either heaven or hell
with no reason at all other than that it pleases Him. This is unjust.

The bible represents God as being a just God, so I have to go with the second explanation and allow God to keep His nature in tact. Calvinism changes the nature of God.

God USES our free will to make come about what HE wishes.
Often we post about Joseph. His brothers meant it for evil...
but God USED IT for good.
God will always attain the end HE wishes, but it's done through our free will.

We are, after all, made in the image of God and God surely has free will.

Okay, and you know what I believe. I will say this in closing and summation, mans will though accountable to God, isnt free from Gods Sovereign Purpose to do whatever He purposed to be done. Acts 4:26-28

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

They were Gathered together by Gods Purpose ! Gathered together the words in the original are in the passive voice, they were being acted upon by Gods powerful purpose, to do their wickedness, but they are still culpable to God Acts 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[JLB]

You said that God predestinated certain people to burn in hell (and I quote you) "for their sins", which is to say that God predestinated them to burn in hell because of their sins--in other words, that their sins caused God to predestinate them to burn in hell. So, you therein contradict what you say out of the other side of your mouth: viz., that nothing causes God to do anything.

Amen, so true.

I have witnessed this common double minded, “mindset” in those who promote the false teachings of Calvinism. They are both deceiving and being deceived and don’t even realize what they are saying and how utterly abominable there doctrine of is to Christ.

They claim openly that Calvinism has replaced the doctrine of Christ, which is absolutely unthinkable that anyone could possibly believe such nonsense, while at the same time being “true” for them.

They have actually exchanged the truth for “the lie”.

The lie that they believe, which 2 Thessalonians 2:11 refers to is found in the words that Satan spoke to Eve, in Genesis 3:4:

Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.”
Genesis 3:4

Go ahead and sin (disobey God) you won’t die!


Paul says it this way —


But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 3:13-15



Thank you for your post and thank you for your contribution to this community.






JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Umm ...

Is Salvation a THING?
You said: "Is it difficult for you to admit that if God predestinated EVERYTHING, then He also predestinated the salvation of man", but your conclusion only follows from your premise if SALVATION is a THING. You are being sloppy with your statements.

The BIBLE says this about "predestined" (quoted in whole paragraphs for context):

• Acts 4:27-31 [CSB] 27 "For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, 28 "to do whatever your hand and your will had predestined to take place. 29 "And now, Lord, consider their threats, and grant that your servants may speak your word with all boldness, 30 "while you stretch out your hand for healing, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus." 31 When they had prayed, the place where they were assembled was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God boldly.
  • God predestined actions to take place.
• Romans 8:28-30 [CSB] 28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.
  • God predestines people (to be called and conformed to the image of Christ).
• 1 Corinthians 2:6-9 [CSB] 6 We do, however, speak a wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age, or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 On the contrary, we speak God's hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the agesfor our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, because if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, What no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no human heart has conceived -- God has prepared these things for those who love him.
  • God predestines a hidden wisdom to be revealed to "Christians".
• Ephesians 1:3-6, 11-12 [CSB] 3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavens in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in love before him. 5 He predestined us to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ for himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace that he lavished on us in the Beloved One. ... 11 In him we have also received an inheritance, because we were predestined according to the planof the one who works out everything in agreement with the purpose of his will, 12 so that we who had already put our hope in Christ might bring praise to his glory.
  • God predestines people (to be adopted as sons, according to His plan).

So according to GOD, this is what HE predestines (not a "thing" and not "everything").

I clarified A....
God DECREED all THINGS to happen,
God PREDESTINATED the salvation of some and not others.

I'll go over the rest later...too busy right now.

Is salvation a thing?
Interesting.
Is it a noun?

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe its a carnal way of reasoning to think that because all is of grace, that constitutes a green light to live as we will. To me that's carnality and selfishness. I believe Salvation being totally of Grace gives the foundation for love and gratitude to God, and to serve Him from that motive.

I agree with you.
You don't know me well enough, it seems.
I'm not for cheap grace or easy beleivism --- far from it.

It's just that by attributing to God everything, including sin,
then HE is to blame when we sin
and WE cannot or should not (by a just God) be held responsible for our actions
since we're only doing what God decreed for us to do.

See?

 

[GodsGrace]

Since "ELECT" is a Biblical term and not something that Reformed Theologians invented, How are YOU SURE that you are one of the Elect?

• 2 Timothy 2:10 [CSB] 10 This is why I endure all things for the elect: so that they also may obtain salvation, which is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

Elect means to choose.
It means the chosen.
HOW OR WHY they are chosen is at the crux of this conversation.
2 Timothy 2:10 sure sounds like God is doing the choosing.
Acts 13:48 also gives me a problem.

However, the rest of scripture, including Ephesians, does not and the idea behind the NT is so clear that some misquotes must be accepted. If Paul states 100 ideas, and 2 sound different, there must be a reason but the reason cannot be that we throw out the other 98.

Paul is probably speaking about salvation in the future tense, or he might be referring to glorification or sanctification.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, and you know what I believe. I will say this in closing and summation, mans will though accountable to God, isnt free from Gods Sovereign Purpose to do whatever He purposed to be done. Acts 4:26-28

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

They were Gathered together by Gods Purpose ! Gathered together the words in the original are in the passive voice, they were being acted upon by Gods powerful purpose, to do their wickedness, but they are still culpable to God Acts 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Actually BF, I agree with the above.
God did indeed decree by His will and choice, that the Son be sacrificed to buy back mankind from the evil one.
You won't get an argument from me.

 

[JLB]

Since "ELECT" is a Biblical term and not something that Reformed Theologians invented, How are YOU SURE that you are one of the Elect?

• 2 Timothy 2:10 [CSB] 10 This is why I endure all things for the elect: so that they also may obtain salvation, which is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

Those who choose the Elect One, and are joined to Him being one spirit with Him, are truly the elect.


The primary meaning of elect, is chosen for the purpose of being the lineage of the Messiah; the Christ.


This is the context of Romans 9.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5


When you take verses in Romans 9 and lift them out of their original context, you can then make them say whatever you want them to say.


When we see this context in the verses about Pharaoh and the children of Israel, we should see that God is choosing to protect that lineage (His purpose for mankind) of the Messiah from genocide that Pharaoh intended.


Not “choosing” Pharoah for hell while “choosing” the children of Israel for heaven.


This is the primary meaning of “elect” in the scriptures.

Example:

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


The Holy Spirit through Paul desires for the elect, the Jewish people to obtain salvation which is in Christ.









JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Those who choose the Elect One, and are joined to Him being one spirit with Him, are truly the elect.


The primary meaning of elect, is chosen for the purpose of being the lineage of the Messiah; the Christ.


This is the context of Romans 9.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5


When you take verses in Romans 9 and lift them out of their original context, you can then make them say whatever you want them to say.


When we see this context in the verses about Pharaoh and the children of Israel, we should see that God is choosing to protect that lineage (His purpose for mankind) of the Messiah from genocide that Pharaoh intended.


Not “choosing” Pharoah for hell while “choosing” the children of Israel for heaven.


This is the primary meaning of “elect” in the scriptures.

Example:

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


The Holy Spirit through Paul desires for the elect, the Jewish people to obtain salvation which is in Christ.









JLB

I believe 2 Timothy 2:10 needs to be studied.
I'm getting the same meaning in the romance languages so it must surely mean something different.

I might spend some time on this today...

 

[brightfame52]

I agree with you.
You don't know me well enough, it seems.
I'm not for cheap grace or easy beleivism --- far from it.

It's just that by attributing to God everything, including sin,
then HE is to blame when we sin
and WE cannot or should not (by a just God) be held responsible for our actions
since we're only doing what God decreed for us to do.

See?

God says man is the blame for his sinning even though man sins according to Gods purpose and plan for him.

Adam must sin according to Gods Purpose, yet Adam was held accountable. If you cant accept that, you dont accept Gods ways, and view them as unjust as the carnal mind of man does as here Rom 9:17-19

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

That seems to me to be your reasoning !

 

[brightfame52]

Actually BF, I agree with the above.
God did indeed decree by His will and choice, that the Son be sacrificed to buy back mankind from the evil one.
You won't get an argument from me.

I dont see where you and i agree, thats news to me

 

[GodsGrace]

Umm ...

Is Salvation a THING?
You said: "Is it difficult for you to admit that if God predestinated EVERYTHING, then He also predestinated the salvation of man", but your conclusion only follows from your premise if SALVATION is a THING. You are being sloppy with your statements.

Salvation is a noun...as previously stated.
It's a THING.

Also, I did clarify that God DECREES actions to happen.
and PREDESTNATES the destiny of all men as to salvation.

So, simply put, God does predestinate everything.
I try to be careful with my statements.
I wouldn't say sloppy is one of my weaknesses.

The BIBLE says this about "predestined" (quoted in whole paragraphs for context):

• Acts 4:27-31 [CSB] 27 "For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, 28 "to do whatever your hand and your will had predestined to take place. 29 "And now, Lord, consider their threats, and grant that your servants may speak your word with all boldness, 30 "while you stretch out your hand for healing, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus." 31 When they had prayed, the place where they were assembled was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God boldly.
  • God predestined actions to take place.

Every Christian will agree with the above.
God predestined before time that when man fell, He would make a way for man to save himself if he so chose.
God is a just God and a merciful and loving God....Jesus was that way.

• Romans 8:28-30 [CSB] 28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.
  • God predestines people (to be called and conformed to the image of Christ).

God calls ALL men...I've stated many verses.
God predestines to be conformed to the image of Jesus.
Agreed.

• 1 Corinthians 2:6-9 [CSB] 6 We do, however, speak a wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age, or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 On the contrary, we speak God's hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the agesfor our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, because if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, What no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no human heart has conceived -- God has prepared these things for those who love him.
  • God predestines a hidden wisdom to be revealed to "Christians".

Agreed.

It's God predestinating the fate of each individual man that the rest of Christianity cannot agree with.
Allowing Gentiles into the fold is a mystery that has been revealed.
The wonderful news of His salvation process is a mystery that has been revealed...1 Cor 2:10-12
Our spiritual nature can be known only by the spirit. 1 Cor 2:13

• Ephesians 1:3-6, 11-12 [CSB] 3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavens in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in love before him.

Yes. God chose us IN HIM, In Jesus, in His plan (as above) before time.
God predestined that we be holy and blameless before Him.

• 5 He predestined us to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ for himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace that he lavished on us in the Beloved One. ... 11 In him we have also received an inheritance, because we were predestined according to the planof the one who works out everything in agreement with the purpose of his will, 12 so that we who had already put our hope in Christ might bring praise to his glory.
  • God predestines people (to be adopted as sons, according to His plan).

So according to GOD, this is what HE predestines (not a "thing" and not "everything").

Agreed. I do believe we agree on this.
God predestined HOW we would be saved,
not WHO would be saved.
We were predestined to be adopted as sons through Jesus.
The plan God had from the beginning - knowing that Adam would fail.
But still desiring mankind to exist and still desiring Himself to be just....
It is up to us to take this plan and apply it to our lives...or we will be lost.
(by we I mean each individual person).

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon,
The reformed have everything wrong.
Or,
everything from the past 2,000 years was wrong.
I'll stick to the early church every time.

Proverbs 21:16
The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

 

[GodsGrace]

God says man is the blame for his sinning even though man sins according to Gods purpose and plan for him.

Yes, you're right and I know that The Institutes and the Confessions state that even though God decreed all that men will do, they are still responsible for their actions.

So I ask you, IF I'm doing what God had decreed me to do
and God holds me responsible for doing what HE decreed me to do
How can I be held responsible UNLESS God is not a God of justice?

Is God just or not?
If it's as Calvin states and the Confessions, God cannot be called a just God.

Adam must sin according to Gods Purpose, yet Adam was held accountable. If you cant accept that, you dont accept Gods ways, and view them as unjust as the carnal mind of man does as here Rom 9:17-19

I very much accept God's ways. As they were known for the past 2,000 years.
Calvin came on the scene a little late I believe. Of course I mean all the reformed, but he seems to be the most popular one.

I believe in free will.
I believe Adam had free will to eat or not eat.
Eating of the fruit he became UNFAITHFUL to God, besides disobeying Him.

Every man is born lost.
But God, being just, has given to each one of us the option to choose to be saved.
John 3:16 explains this perfectly - but you do not accept scripture as it is plainly written.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

That seems to me to be your reasoning !

Paul is using the UNFAITHFULNESS of the first century Jews to show how God has used them for His purpose.
As you also believe, God is able to USE sinfulness to come to a good....although you believe He actually decrees the sinfulness or unfaithfulness.

IF God decreed the unfaithfulness of Adam OR of the Jews, why would He be mad?
Is He mad at Himself??

God used Pharaoh to fulfill the word of God....
Pharaoh had a hard heart (caused by himself and confirmed by God)
and Israel had also grown to have a hard heart.
But God can use this to show His sovereignty (His power).

The Jews were hardened after many years of rebelliion.
Acts 28:27
FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES; OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM."'
And they were cut off for their unbelief.
Romans 11:20
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Paul loved his fellow Jews and hoped they could be grafted back in.
Romans 9:3
3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons,

 

[Paul E. Michael]

I know I already said it, thats really all needed to be said, you either believe it or you dont.

But to say that is not to answer the questions I asked you. You have not answered the questions I asked you:

[Did God make] the thing formed say to Him that formed it, "Why hast thou made me thus?" [Yes or No?]

brightfame52: <NO ANSWER>

Is the potter putting those words into the clay's mouth, then? [Yes or No?]

brightfame52: <NO ANSWER>

And if so, then what's the difference between "Why hast thou made me thus?" and "Thus saith the LORD"?

brightfame52: <NO ANSWER>

 

[GodsGrace]

I dont see where you and i agree, thats news to me

I'll bet we agree on many teachings.

 

[GodsGrace]

Proverbs 21:16
The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

Great reply Icon.
So nice of you.