A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[atpollard]

Elect means to choose.
It means the chosen.
HOW OR WHY they are chosen is at the crux of this conversation.
2 Timothy 2:10 sure sounds like God is doing the choosing.
Acts 13:48 also gives me a problem.

However, the rest of scripture, including Ephesians, does not and the idea behind the NT is so clear that some misquotes must be accepted. If Paul states 100 ideas, and 2 sound different, there must be a reason but the reason cannot be that we throw out the other 98.

Paul is probably speaking about salvation in the future tense, or he might be referring to glorification or sanctification.

I cannot tell from your answer: Are you SURE that you are one of the Elect?
(I am attempting to understand how you are SURE when those poor Calvinists you mentioned were not able to be sure and became atheists because of it.) If you have a problem with 1 Timothy 2:10, then select another verse that discusses the ELECT. I just chose that verse to demonstrate that "ELECT" was a Biblical" rather than Theological term and that the "ELECT" are the "SAVED" [the terms are synonyms]. As Romans 8 says, those PREDESTINED are also CALLED, JUSTIFIED and GLORIFIED ... the SAVED are SAVED from start to finish.

ARE YOU ELECT?
HOW DO YOU KNOW?
(I want Calvinists to see how non-Calvinists can be sure so that they can be sure, too.)

 

[atpollard]

Those who choose the Elect One, and are joined to Him being one spirit with Him, are truly the elect.


The primary meaning of elect, is chosen for the purpose of being the lineage of the Messiah; the Christ.


This is the context of Romans 9.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5


When you take verses in Romans 9 and lift them out of their original context, you can then make them say whatever you want them to say.


When we see this context in the verses about Pharaoh and the children of Israel, we should see that God is choosing to protect that lineage (His purpose for mankind) of the Messiah from genocide that Pharaoh intended.


Not “choosing” Pharoah for hell while “choosing” the children of Israel for heaven.


This is the primary meaning of “elect” in the scriptures.

Example:

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


The Holy Spirit through Paul desires for the elect, the Jewish people to obtain salvation which is in Christ.









JLB

So you are not one of the Elect.
Beware, according to some posters here, that means that you are going to become an atheist from discouragement at that revelation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Salvation is a noun...as previously stated.
It's a THING.

Also, I did clarify that God DECREES actions to happen.
and PREDESTNATES the destiny of all men as to salvation.

The reformation was used by God to set things right and return to truth that was no longer in vogue.
The so called early church fathers drifted into a false works based religion.

So, simply put, God does predestinate everything.

The bible does not use predestination that way.

I try to be careful with my statements.
I wouldn't say sloppy is one of my weaknesses.

We read your posts however, so we know differently.

Every Christian will agree with the above.

No, most believe in the doctrines of grace.

God predestined before time that when man fell, He would make a way for man to save himself if he so chose.

No

God is a just God and a merciful and loving God....Jesus was that way.

Jesus saves His people from their sins. He is not a "way for people to save themselves".

God calls ALL men...I've stated many verses.

Never has, Never will.

God predestines to be conformed to the image of Jesus.
Agreed.

He predestines the foreknown elect to this destination.

It's God predestinating the fate of each individual man that the rest of Christianity cannot agree with.
Allowing Gentiles into the fold is a mystery that has been revealed.
The wonderful news of His salvation process is a mystery that has been revealed...1 Cor 2:10-12
Our spiritual nature can be known only by the spirit. 1 Cor 2:13



Yes. God chose us IN HIM, In Jesus, in His plan (as above) before time.
God predestined that we be holy and blameless before Him.


Agreed. I do believe we agree on this.

You say you do but you do not.

God predestined HOW we would be saved,

God ordained it.

not WHO would be saved.

This is false every time you post it. Whom He did foreknow

We were predestined to be adopted as sons through Jesus.
The plan God had from the beginning - knowing that Adam would fail.
But still desiring mankind to exist and still desiring Himself to be just....
It is up to us to take this plan and apply it to our lives...or we will be lost.
(by we I mean each individual person).

Classic Pelagian view Rejected

 

[GodsGrace]

I cannot tell from your answer: Are you SURE that you are one of the Elect?
(I am attempting to understand how you are SURE when those poor Calvinists you mentioned were not able to be sure and became atheists because of it.) If you have a problem with 1 Timothy 2:10, then select another verse that discusses the ELECT. I just chose that verse to demonstrate that "ELECT" was a Biblical" rather than Theological term and that the "ELECT" are the "SAVED" [the terms are synonyms]. As Romans 8 says, those PREDESTINED are also CALLED, JUSTIFIED and GLORIFIED ... the SAVED are SAVED from start to finish.

ARE YOU ELECT?
HOW DO YOU KNOW?
(I want Calvinists to see how non-Calvinists can be sure so that they can be sure, too.)

Sorry, I didn't understand.

First I want to say that I posted that because the reformed do not have a good answer for persons that don't know for sure if they're saved or not. There are a few videos I could post, I just don't know if I could find them. Two of them I remember saying that they left Christianity due to Calvinism theology.

So here's how non-calvinists know they are saved:

Basically, because THEY did the choosing.
Easy as that.
I feel God's call - somehow/there are different ways.
I respond with a desire to follow God and be a disciple of Jesus.
I KNOW I have made this choice since it is MY choice.
Maybe I sin but I know if I confess that sin God is merciful and will forgive us our sins, as John stated 1 John 1,2


Reformed:
How could I be sure GOD chose me?
I can't. Perseverance says He will guide me till the end.
I suppose that means that I must obey God perfectly since He is guiding me.
If I don't, I would suppose He's not guiding me anymore and so I may not be a CHOSEN one BY GOD.

These persons that have questions about their salvation never get a reassuring answer...
whereas, if you even go to the Questions and Answers Forum on this site, you'll find many that question their salvation. You're free to read the answers that are given to them.

This is not possible in reformed theology because no one really knows if a person IS a chosen one or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

The reformation was used by God to set things right and return to truth that was no longer in vogue.
The so called early church fathers drifted into a false works based religion.

The bible does not use predestination that way.

We read your posts however, so we know differently.

No, most believe in the doctrines of grace.

No

Jesus saves His people from their sins. He is not a "way for people to save themselves".

Never has, Never will.

He predestines the foreknown elect to this destination.

You say you do but you do not.

God ordained it.

This is false every time you post it. Whom He did foreknow

Classic Pelagian view Rejected

The above was for Atpollard.
Just two comments:

1. You don't know what grace is.

2. The reformation was not used to set things right.
It was to set the CC right.

Things were right in the beginning.
And in the beginning predestination was unheard of...
and all that other stuff calvinists believe.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

I did answer;
God has predestined the elect to be conformed to the image of the Son.
rom.8:
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?

Is that a Yes or a No? Until you answer the question either in the affirmative or in the negative, you will continue in your failure to have answered it:

Did God from all eternity predestine certain people to not burn in hell? Yes or No?

Iconoclast: <NO ANSWER>

 

[atpollard]

First I want to say that I posted that because the reformed do not have a good answer for persons that don't know for sure if they're saved or not. There are a few videos I could post, I just don't know if I could find them. Two of them I remember saying that they left Christianity due to Calvinism theology.

I don't understand the difficulty; when asked that question I just point people to THIS scripture:

Romans 10 [NLT]
5 For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. 6 But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will go up to heaven?’ (to bring Christ down to earth). 7 And don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead?’ (to bring Christ back to life again).” 8 In fact, it says,​

“The message is very close at hand;​

it is on your lips and in your heart.”​

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: 9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” 12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”​

... and I tell them "You know better than ME whether you confess and believe with your mouth and your heart."

Those not drawn by the Father to the Son, never will (and won't care that they didn't). Those drawn by the Father to the Son become "His sheep" and they will do it (because the Holy Spirit will be at work in them, "giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him." Philippians 2:13 [NLT] ).

 

[Iconoclast]

Great reply Icon.
So nice of you.

You are welcome. As I read your recent mis guided posts, I think of this verse as it was written as a caution, for nice people who go towards error.

 

[atpollard]

Basically, because THEY did the choosing.
Easy as that.
I feel God's call - somehow/there are different ways.
I respond with a desire to follow God and be a disciple of Jesus.
I KNOW I have made this choice since it is MY choice.
Maybe I sin but I know if I confess that sin God is merciful and will forgive us our sins, as John stated 1 John 1,2

Aren't the people questioning their salvation doing so because THEY don't feel it any more?
So if you stopped "feeling it" would that mean you had fallen out of Salvation?
[You chose, so YOU must have unchose ... or maybe God rejected your confession because you sinned one too may times and He won't forgive any more.]
These are all consequences of salvation being all about people and feelings.
If salvation is all about God and what He did and who He chose, then how I "feel" doesn't matter: only what God promised matters. John 6:44 ... "and I will raise THEM up on the last day." [Preservation of the Saints].

 

[Iconoclast]

Is that a Yes or a No? Until you answer the question either in the affirmative or in the negative, you will continue in your failure to have answered it:

Iconoclast: <NO ANSWER>

People who lack comprehension seek to dumb down answers, to a yes or no, when it is not really a yes or no question. The answer has been given already to any that have eyes to see.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

People who lack comprehension seek to dumb down answers, to a yes or no, when it is not really a yes or no question. The answer has been given already to any that have eyes to see.

LOL

The "Calvinism Overseer", brightfame52, himself, answered the Yes/No question that you are shamelessly, asininely saying is not a Yes/No question:

Did God from all eternity predestine certain people to not burn in hell? Yes or No?

Yes, and He predestinated some from all eternity to go into the lake of fire for their sins...

Are you saying that brightfame52 "lacks comprehension", since he recognizes the Yes/No question you are stonewalling against to be a Yes/No question, and has no hesitation against answering it with a Yes?

Did God from all eternity predestine certain people to not burn in hell? Yes or No?

Iconoclast: <NO ANSWER, STILL>

By saying that this Yes/No question is not a Yes/No question you are admitting that you have not answered it.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, you're right and I know that The Institutes and the Confessions state that even though God decreed all that men will do, they are still responsible for their actions.

So I ask you, IF I'm doing what God had decreed me to do
and God holds me responsible for doing what HE decreed me to do
How can I be held responsible UNLESS God is not a God of justice?

Is God just or not?
If it's as Calvin states and the Confessions, God cannot be called a just God.



I very much accept God's ways. As they were known for the past 2,000 years.
Calvin came on the scene a little late I believe. Of course I mean all the reformed, but he seems to be the most popular one.

I believe in free will.
I believe Adam had free will to eat or not eat.
Eating of the fruit he became UNFAITHFUL to God, besides disobeying Him.

Every man is born lost.
But God, being just, has given to each one of us the option to choose to be saved.
John 3:16 explains this perfectly - but you do not accept scripture as it is plainly written.


Paul is using the UNFAITHFULNESS of the first century Jews to show how God has used them for His purpose.
As you also believe, God is able to USE sinfulness to come to a good....although you believe He actually decrees the sinfulness or unfaithfulness.

IF God decreed the unfaithfulness of Adam OR of the Jews, why would He be mad?
Is He mad at Himself??

God used Pharaoh to fulfill the word of God....
Pharaoh had a hard heart (caused by himself and confirmed by God)
and Israel had also grown to have a hard heart.
But God can use this to show His sovereignty (His power).

The Jews were hardened after many years of rebelliion.
Acts 28:27
FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES; OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM."'
And they were cut off for their unbelief.
Romans 11:20
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Paul loved his fellow Jews and hoped they could be grafted back in.
Romans 9:3
3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons,

So you disagree, you know where I stand, and I see where us stand

 

[brightfame52]

But to say that is not to answer the questions I asked you. You have not answered the questions I asked you:

brightfame52: <NO ANSWER>

brightfame52: <NO ANSWER>

brightfame52: <NO ANSWER>

Like I said, I have explained myself, you either pay attention or you dont.

 

[brightfame52]

I'll bet we agree on many teachings.

Not on this very important issue.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't understand the difficulty; when asked that question I just point people to THIS scripture:

Romans 10 [NLT]​

5 For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. 6 But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will go up to heaven?’ (to bring Christ down to earth). 7 And don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead?’ (to bring Christ back to life again).” 8 In fact, it says,​

“The message is very close at hand;​

it is on your lips and in your heart.”​

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: 9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” 12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”​

... and I tell them "You know better than ME whether you confess and believe with your mouth and your heart."

Those not drawn by the Father to the Son, never will (and won't care that they didn't). Those drawn by the Father to the Son become "His sheep" and they will do it (because the Holy Spirit will be at work in them, "giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him." Philippians 2:13 [NLT] ).

Amen to all.

I like to tell persons that if they're worried that they are not saved,
they most probably are. Those that aren't saved don't worry about it.

Too bad they ask Piper or MacArhtur instead of you...(can't remember which one I heard - it was a Question and answer forum).

 

[GodsGrace]

Aren't the people questioning their salvation doing so because THEY don't feel it any more?

We are taught that our salvation does not go by our feelings, but about our standing with God.
If we believe God exists, and we desire to be dwelling with Him and He with us, then that is salvation.
Feelings have nothing to do with it. When I was first saved I felt the presence of the Holy Spirit 24 hrs a day.
Now I just know He's with me, whether I feel it or not.

So if you stopped "feeling it" would that mean you had fallen out of Salvation?

Answered above.

[You chose, so YOU must have unchose ... or maybe God rejected your confession because you sinned one too may times and He won't forgive any more.]
These are all consequences of salvation being all about people and feelings.

Yes, I DO believe that we could abandon God - it would be called apostacy.
This is due to free will.
If we have free will to choose God, we also have free will to abandon God...for whatever reason - and there are a few.

If salvation is all about God and what He did and who He chose, then how I "feel" doesn't matter: only what God promised matters. John 6:44 ... "and I will raise THEM up on the last day." [Preservation of the Saints].

I agree with you.
John 3:16
many verses in Romans.
1 John 1:1-4
Acts 16:32
and so many more.

However, I do want to say that BELIEVE has a specific meaning in the greek language, so I do keep to that fact that we much believe in the sense of how the writers of the NT meant it. To trust, to obey, to follow, etc.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Like I said, I have explained myself, you either pay attention or you dont.

And like I said, you have not answered the questions I asked you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not on this very important issue.

Yes. See we agree on this too.
It IS important - that's the only reason I'm here.
I've been screamed at, made fun of, and called a liar.
But God helps me through so that the biblical truth can get through.
There is only one bible.
There is only one God.
There is only one truth.

 

[brightfame52]

And like I said, you have not answered the questions I asked you.

I have, but not the way you want me to.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes. See we agree on this too.
It IS important - that's the only reason I'm here.
I've been screamed at, made fun of, and called a liar.
But God helps me through so that the biblical truth can get through.
There is only one bible.
There is only one God.
There is only one truth.

I dont see it, but hey if thats what you believe, thats what you believe.