A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[JLB]

Both, but mainly Gentiles because he [Paul] was specifically sent to preach to them, and he endured much persecution from fellow jews because of it. 2 Tim 1:11

I didnt ask who Paul was sent to preach to, because it was both Jew and Gentiles.

I asked what elect referred to in THIS PASSAGE?

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


JLB

 

[brightfame52]

I didnt ask who Paul was sent to preach to, because it was both Jew and Gentiles.

I asked what elect referred to in THIS PASSAGE?

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


JLB

i gave you my response as to why Gentiles are referred to as Elect in the NT aside from jews. Im not going to even debate it. And who the Elect are in 2 Tim 2:10 Both jews and Gentiles, but primarily Gentiles.

 

[JLB]

i gave you my response as to why Gentiles are referred to as Elect in the NT aside from jews. Im not going to even debate it. And who the Elect are in 2 Tim 2:10 Both jews and Gentiles, but primarily Gentiles.

Iknow you gave a response about ANOTHER scripture other than what I quoted.


I asked you about a specific scripture.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

What does “elect” refer to in THIS scripture?




JLB

 

[atpollard]

Who does elect refer to in this passage?

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

Good verse in a good chapter of a good letter ... I love the whole thing, especially the BIG PICTURE that it paints.

"The elect" (chosen) in that verse are those whom God will yet save and whom God is saving [through Paul as His instrument]. Paul is explaining WHY he can endure such suffering with joy ... just as Jesus endured His suffering with JOY at the knowledge of what God was accomplishing through it (the suffering). He is offering HOPE and ENCOURAGEMENT to both Timothy and those Timothy shares the message with to follow his (Paul's) example as Paul follows HIS (Christ's) example ... that they may share in HIM as Paul now shares in HIM.

All VERY COOL stuff (imho).

 

[brightfame52]

Iknow you gave a response about ANOTHER scripture other than what I quoted.


I asked you about a specific scripture.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

What does “elect” refer to in THIS scripture?




JLB

Im through with it, you were shown scripture that verifies Gentiles are called Elect, that includes 2 Tim 2:10

 

[atpollard]

The Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am His child.

I am therefore a Jew inwardly.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
Romans 8:16

This seems like it would apply equally to the "spirit" of a Calvinist as the "spirit" of a non-Calvinist. Which suggests that those claiming to become atheists because Calvinism left them no way to be sure that they were one of the ELECT, probably had a problem having nothing to do with Calvinism.

From your response, "The Spirit did not bear witness with their spirit that they were a child of God."
So what would your prognosis be of such a person? Do they have a bad understanding of some point of Theology?

 

[GodsGrace]

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


Does the elect refer to Jews or Gentiles in this passage?

It probably refers to the Jews.
It would make sense if it was referring to the Jews as the elect of God.
Usually THE ELECT refers to the nation of Israel, God's elect, His choice, to reveal Himself and complete His plan for redeeming man.

 

[GodsGrace]

THIS was the question ...


So if you really want to answer for wondering , the question is ...

How are YOU SURE that you are one of the Elect?

JLB Is actually asking a good question.

I'm trying to understand 2 Tim 2:10 myself.
I had given 2 possibilities.
That it is Israel is also a good possibility, and probably the correct answer.

IOW.
God wants Israel, the Jews, to be part of His redemption plan, as in Romans 9.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good verse in a good chapter of a good letter ... I love the whole thing, especially the BIG PICTURE that it paints.

"The elect" (chosen) in that verse are those whom God will yet save and whom God is saving [through Paul as His instrument]. Paul is explaining WHY he can endure such suffering with joy ... just as Jesus endured His suffering with JOY at the knowledge of what God was accomplishing through it (the suffering). He is offering HOPE and ENCOURAGEMENT to both Timothy and those Timothy shares the message with to follow his (Paul's) example as Paul follows HIS (Christ's) example ... that they may share in HIM as Paul now shares in HIM.

All VERY COOL stuff (imho).

But wouldn't the elect already be saved then?

 

[Paul E. Michael]

You really not making sense and wasting your time. The things I have explained, you dont understand, but then you want me to explain things to you.

You're wasting your time telling me that you answered the questions I asked you since, as you well know, we can all see that you have never answered them.

[Does God make] the thing formed say to Him that formed it, "Why hast thou made me thus?" [Yes or No?]

brightfame52: <NO ANSWER>

Is the potter putting those words into the clay's mouth, then? [Yes or No?]

brightfame52: <NO ANSWER>

And if so, then what's the difference between "Why hast thou made me thus?" and "Thus saith the LORD"?

brightfame52: <NO ANSWER>

The point is that you cannot answer these questions without embarrassing yourself, yet you embarrass yourself just the same by your stonewalling against them, and by your repeated farce of telling us you answered them. Whom do you think you're fooling, brightfame52?

 

[atpollard]

It probably refers to the Jews.
It would make sense if it was referring to the Jews as the elect of God.
Usually THE ELECT refers to the nation of Israel, God's elect, His choice, to reveal Himself and complete His plan for redeeming man.

I would think that "the Apostle to the Gentiles" would not write about his suffering for the "elect" to a Minister that he had placed over a Gentile Church and want to talk about the yet unsaved Jews. How do Gentile Christians suffereing persecution from unbelieving Jews gain encouragement from the thought that their tormentors will one day be blessed by God?

It makes more sense to say "you are suffering to reach those yet to be saved, as I suffer to reach those (gentiles) yet to be saved, following the example of Christ, who suffered to save those (Jews and gentiles) yet to be saved." Thus the "ELECT" are those chosen by God to be saved (but not yet saved in that verse). That is who you suffer for.

 

[atpollard]

But wouldn't the elect already be saved then?

"As many as were appointed, believed" ... they were appointed to believe before they heard, then someone endured hardship to bring them the Gospel, then they heard and believed. You of all people know that "God uses means" to save. Paul was suffering so that he could reach new fields and preach to new ears and win new souls. The ELECT ("chosen") that the Father would draw to the son [John 6:44], the sheep that the Father would give to the Son [John 10:26-30].

 

[GodsGrace]

I would think that "the Apostle to the Gentiles" would not write about his suffering for the "elect" to a Minister that he had placed over a Gentile Church and want to talk about the yet unsaved Jews. How do Gentile Christians suffereing persecution from unbelieving Jews gain encouragement from the thought that their tormentors will one day be blessed by God?

It makes more sense to say "you are suffering to reach those yet to be saved, as I suffer to reach those (gentiles) yet to be saved, following the example of Christ, who suffered to save those (Jews and gentiles) yet to be saved." Thus the "ELECT" are those chosen by God to be saved (but not yet saved in that verse). That is who you suffer for.

Yes. I'm considering this too.
I had mentioned this yesterday.
But the elect don't need salvation?

 

[atpollard]

@JLB Is actually asking a good question.

It was a good question, it just had nothing to do with "TOTAL DEPRAVITY" or Calvinism.

 

[GodsGrace]

"As many as were appointed, believed" ... they were appointed to believe before they heard, then someone endured hardship to bring them the Gospel, then they heard and believed. You of all people know that "God uses means" to save. Paul was suffering so that he could reach new fields and preach to new ears and win new souls. The ELECT ("chosen") that the Father would draw to the son [John 6:44], the sheep that the Father would give to the Son [John 10:26-30].

OK
But I believe all are made to know about God.
The above wouldn't be reconciled...
Need my books and computer....

 

[GodsGrace]

It was a good question, it just had nothing to do with "TOTAL DEPRAVITY" or Calvinism.

Yes. This happens.
Sometimes it leads to good conversation.
As in this case...

 

[atpollard]

Yes. I'm considering this too.
I had mentioned this yesterday.
But the elect don't need salvation?

Romans 8 [NLT]

28 And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. 29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.​

So at what point did GOD start working all things for their good? (when did they become the "chosen" [ELECT]?)

• knew his people in advance
• he chose them to become like his Son
• he called them
• he gave them right standing
• he gave them his glory

 

[Paul E. Michael]

But I believe all are made to know about God.

Have you ever read Eternity In Their Hearts? Fascinating book!

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 8 [NLT]

28 And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. 29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.​

So at what point did GOD start working all things for their good? (when did they become the "chosen" [ELECT]?)

• knew his people in advance
• he chose them to become like his Son
• he called them
• he gave them right standing
• he gave them his glory

When God KNEW who would be saved.
IN HIS MIND.


But the persons still had to go through the entire procedure....
God calls all
Some reply
Justification
They become like the Son.

 

[JLB]

Im through with it, you were shown scripture that verifies Gentiles are called Elect, that includes 2 Tim 2:10

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


Paul says he endures all things, so the elect may also obtain salvation.


I thought you said the elect were automatically saved, because they were the “elect”; those elected for salvation.


Why would Paul have to endure all things so that the elect would also obtain salvation, if the elect were already saved?


Obviously Paul did not agree with the idea that being elect = saved.




JLB