An honest Calvinist view of Total Depravity.

[JLB]

I asked that you prove that the teaching is heretical.

That is for you to prove not me.

You imply I am a heretic, the burden of proof is on you.

I imply nothing.


I post what the scripture says.

The teaching of Jesus Christ and His apostles in the New Testament is the truth.


Those who obey Him will be receive eternal salvation.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

• he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

JLB

 

[brightfame52]

A person must believe to be saved.

The NT does not teach that he must be saved first and Then believe.

It states that only a saved person can UNDERSTAND doctrine, it's refuted by the lost.

For instance 1 cor 2,14.

You must be saved in order to believe

 

[JLB]

Tulip is the Gospel

Where in scripture does it say TULIP is the gospel?

 

[JLB]

You must be saved in order to believe

How does a person become saved without ever hearing the gospel message of Jesus Christ?

Make such to post the scripture from which your theory comes from.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

 

[electedbyHim]

I imply nothing.


I post what the scripture says.

The teaching of Jesus Christ and His apostles in the New Testament is the truth.


Those who obey Him will be receive eternal salvation.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

• he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

JLB

My mistake, I am a heretic and not saved.

Post #84 @JLB said...

Those who promote Heresies will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

That's one sovereign God you have faith in!!
EVEN HE doesn't know something....!

There's no verse saying God looks into the future like your Free Willianism contends. Even if He could it would mean that God learns from us as to what we will do. God is immutable which contradicts to idea that He could learn as that would be a change in His knowledge.

It is not possible to know what NOTHING will do in the future.... this is not Rocket Science ... it's a simple concept.

 

[Free]

All scripture. Pure truth.

Irrefutable Truth!

And the whole point is that any claim to follow Christ must put into practice and not just merely believe it to be truth. Followers of Christ are doers of the Word, not only hearers.

 

[Iconoclast]

There's no verse saying God looks into the future like your Free Willianism contends. Even if He could it would mean that God learns from us as to what we will do. God is immutable which contradicts to idea that He could learn as that would be a change in His knowledge.

It is not possible to know what NOTHING will do in the future.... this is not Rocket Science ... it's a simple concept.

We can be sure, a moderator who thinks half of the board consists of heretics and confesses a Man centered gospel of works is going to be fair and impartial...lol, no need to worry about posts being censored or deleted....it is all good.

 

[GodsGrace]

Lets try again.

I am thinking you do not understand Total Depravity.

R.C. Sproul explains.

Total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be. You might think of an archfiend of history such as Adolf Hitler and say there was absolutely no redeeming virtue in the man, but I suspect that he had some affection for his mother. As wicked as Hitler was, we can still conceive of ways in which he could have been even more wicked than he actually was. So the idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person.

The verses that I posted in #92 shows that Scripture teaches Total Depravity.

This simply cannot be disputed.

Pick one of the verses and dispute it please.

Proove I am a heretic as you imply.

I know what total depravity means.
Start a thread in Apologetics where members are required to treat each other with love and respect and I'll discuss any aspect of reformed theology with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

And the whole point is that any claim to follow Christ must put into practice and not just merely believe it to be truth. Followers of Christ are doers of the Word, not only hearers.

True.
But this concept is not followed, nor required, in this Calvinism Forum.

See post 108, and many others.

 

[brightfame52]

Where in scripture does it say TULIP is the gospel?

The same place where it says Tulip isn't the Gospel !

 

[brightfame52]

How does a person become saved without ever hearing the gospel message of Jesus Christ?

Make such to post the scripture from which your theory comes from.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

By regeneration, a person is saved by regeneration of the Spirit before they hear the Gospel.

 

[Whatever]

I believe at some point, when it is clear that we run into circles, we should stop a debate.

Everything on this Calvinist forum is running in circles. Maybe we should get them to just delete this section. I've been on Calvinism vs Arminian forums before. Nobody ever changes their mind. The same passages and interpretations just keep going round and round.

 

[Tulipbee]

I imply nothing.


I post what the scripture says.

The teaching of Jesus Christ and His apostles in the New Testament is the truth.


Those who obey Him will be receive eternal salvation.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

• he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

JLB

It seems like you're emphasizing the importance of obedience to Jesus Christ based on the teachings found in the New Testament, particularly in passages like John 3:36. This perspective aligns with a Calvinist emphasis on the sovereignty of God and the necessity of obedience as evidence of true faith. In Calvinism, obedience to Christ is often seen as a fruit of regeneration and a response to God's grace.

Arminianism, on the other hand, also emphasizes the importance of obedience and faithfulness to Christ. However, Arminians generally believe in the concept of conditional salvation, where one's obedience and faithfulness play a significant role in maintaining their salvation. This perspective differs from Calvinism in that it emphasizes human free will and cooperation with God's grace in the process of salvation.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism highlight the importance of obedience to Christ as an essential aspect of the Christian life, although they may differ in their understanding of the theological implications surrounding obedience and salvation.

 

[JLB]

And the whole point is that any claim to follow Christ must put into practice and not just merely believe it to be truth. Followers of Christ are doers of the Word, not only hearers.

Agreed.


Those who promote and practice the work of Heresy should be labeled as such.


But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:16-19

• Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal:

Calvinism is a doctrine of man.


We need to focus on what the scriptures say, and turn away from the teachings and traditions of man.


I have stood for this for the last 12 years here, and will continue.





JLB

 

[JLB]

The same place where it says Tulip isn't the Gospel !

That’s correct, TULIP isn’t found in scripture because it’s not from God.


Scriptures are what God has given us.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Heresy is a work of the flesh. Christians who practice spreading heresies will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

 

[Whatever]

In Calvinism, obedience to Christ is often seen as a fruit of regeneration and a response to God's grace.

Yes, that is why we don't teach "once saved always saved" the way people misunderstand it as "once saved you can go on and live like the Devil and still make it to heaven." The 5th point is Perseverance of the Saints.

Basically once born again, you will persevere to the end.
Jude 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy

1 Cor. 1:7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

It seems like you're emphasizing the importance of obedience to Jesus Christ based on the teachings found in the New Testament, particularly in passages like John 3:36. This perspective aligns with a Calvinist emphasis on the sovereignty of God and the necessity of obedience as evidence of true faith. In Calvinism, obedience to Christ is often seen as a fruit of regeneration and a response to God's grace.

Arminianism, on the other hand, also emphasizes the importance of obedience and faithfulness to Christ. However, Arminians generally believe in the concept of conditional salvation, where one's obedience and faithfulness play a significant role in maintaining their salvation. This perspective differs from Calvinism in that it emphasizes human free will and cooperation with God's grace in the process of salvation.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism highlight the importance of obedience to Christ as an essential aspect of the Christian life, although they may differ in their understanding of the theological implications surrounding obedience and salvation.

Calvinism like Arminianism is made made teachings.


Disciples of Jesus Christ follow His teachings.

Disciples of man follow the teachings of men.


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
Watering, Working, Warning
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 1 Corinthians 3:1-5

• For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

JLB

 

[Whatever]

Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal:

What do you think this passage proves. That born again persons can stray from the truth?

1Ti 1:19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

It clearly teaches that Hymenaeus rejected faith and a good conscience.

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
You know that there are such things as "false christians" don't you. False christians will always eventually fall away from the faith because they are not kept by the power of God.

 

[JJonas]

Lets start here....

What is heretical about the following.


TOTAL DEPRAVITY

THE FALL HAS RESULTED IN SPIRITUAL DEATH TO ALL MEN.
Gen.2:16-17
Romans.5:12
Eph.2:1-3
Col.2:13

FALLEN MAN IS NOW BLIND AND DEAF TO SPIRITUAL TRUTH.
Gen.6:5
Gen.8:21
Ecc.9:3
Jer.17:9
Mark.7:21-23

FALLEN MAN IS NOW UNDER THE CONTROL OF SATAN AND IN BONDAGE TO SIN.
John.8:44
Eph.2:1-2
2Tim.2:25-26
1John.3:10
1John.5:19
Rom.6:20
Titus.3:3

FALLEN MAN, LEFT IN HIS DEAD STATE, IS TOTALLY UNABLE TO REPENT, TO BELIEVE THE GOSPEL, OR TO COME TO CHRIST.
John.6:44
John.6:65
Rom.3:9 -12
Rom.8:7-8
1Cor.2:14


If you do not see total depravity in the Biblical verses, do you believe that man is basically good?

Thank you very much electedbyhim for these helpful verses! I hope that everyone here can believe that they are true! To the list I would like to add Pr. 14:12: There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Much of the verses that you quoted, like John.6:44, John.6:65 or 2 Tim. 2:25-26 undeniably show that a man cannot come to Jesus, unless it is given him from God! The testimony of the Bible on this fact is overwhelming: there is no way that the man with his fallen nature can find and choose God by his own efforts or virtue!

Do we all agree up to this point?

Now, when the Word of God meets someone, this is a new situation. As previously said, no one has the ability to find God, therefore when the Word of God meets someone, it can only be the initiative of God, in other words, an act of God's Sovereignty.

Do we all still agree?

Now, in this new situation when the Word of God, which is spirit and life (Jn 6:63), meets someone, I believe this is where we disagree:

A) Can a man only turn to Christ by an act of Sovereignty of God that doesn't take into account the will of man, as the man remains unable to choose God?

B) Does God enable the man at this moment to freely choose Him or reject Him? Before this moment, the will of man isn't free in the sense that he could choose God. But now, in this small frame of time, the man would be enabled to do so. And, as we read in John.6:44, John.6:65 or 2 Tim. 2:25-26, this could only be a gift of God, so that all the glory belongs to God (Eph 2:8-9).

Do we agree that it is where the disagreement is? In which case, we need to find other verses that could enlighten us on the question. Here are the verses that I have in mind:

• I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live (Deut 30:19)
• O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matt. 23:37)
• Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. (Heb. 4:7)

I believe that those verses speaks for B), yet affirm that God takes the initiative. Yes, God commands man not to harden his heart, as he hears His voice. Why should God do so if the man would have no possiblity to choose whether to harden his heart to reject the Word of God, or not to harden his heart to accept it?

For all that believe that A) is true: do you have any verses that could testify to your view? Remember, this is not about the general incapacity of fallen man to find and choose God. This is about the key moment when a man hears the Word of God, which he is going to either accept or reject!