An honest Calvinist view of Total Depravity.

[JJonas]

Everything on this Calvinist forum is running in circles. Maybe we should get them to just delete this section. I've been on Calvinism vs Arminian forums before. Nobody ever changes their mind. The same passages and interpretations just keep going round and round.

I am thinking about the controversy between George Whitefield (Calvinist) and John Wesley (Arminianist). At some time they made steps toward reconciliation and collaboration, which were only imperfectly reached.

This is also said of Charles Spurgeon: Spurgeon, a vocal proponent of Calvinism, remained in fellowship with men of Arminian persuasion. He disagreed with such men passionately and publicly, yet he continued to associate with them, completely content in doing so. Source: https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-l...the-downgrade-controversy-actually-all-about/

We are here on the earth to bear fruits for God's glory (John 15:8). That's a good question to ask: if everything is running in circles in such debates, how much fruits are we really bearing for God's glory?

Yes, that is why we don't teach "once saved always saved" the way people misunderstand it as "once saved you can go on and live like the Devil and still make it to heaven." The 5th point is Perseverance of the Saints.

It's like the saying: “We are saved by Faith alone, but Faith doesn't come alone”, meaning that genuine Faith will show fruits (James 2:17).

 

[Free]

Agreed.


Those who promote and practice the work of Heresy should be labeled as such.


But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:16-19

• Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal:

Calvinism is a doctrine of man.


We need to focus on what the scriptures say, and turn away from the teachings and traditions of man.


I have stood for this for the last 12 years here, and will continue.

So, you’re not practicing the very passages I posted, but very few in this thread are. And that’s unfortunate.

2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, (ESV)

The charge of heresy against Calvinists is completely unfounded. Besides, the CC, the OC, and the Coptic Church would all say the same about Arminianists. A good dose of humility would do a lot of good.

 

[Iconoclast]

Everything on this Calvinist forum is running in circles. Maybe we should get them to just delete this section. I've been on Calvinism vs Arminian forums before. Nobody ever changes their mind. The same passages and interpretations just keep going round and round.

On the contrary, I have seen many people come to truth by going back and forth. They need to be open to truth, not just twisting words to win an argument. 2tim 2:24-26says that they oppose themselves as they resist truth.
There is not "two sides".
There is truth, and there is error.
Non cals do not like finding out they come up short on truth.

 

[JJonas]

The charge of heresy against Calvinists is completely unfounded. Besides, the CC, the OC, and the Coptic Church would all say the same about Arminianists. A good dose of humility would do a lot of good.

Matt 7:15-23: (...) You shall know them by their fruits (...)

I think that we can judge whether a doctrine is an heresy according to the fruits it produces in the life of those who believe it. I also think that someone can believe an error on a small issue that won't affect his life much, unless he makes this small issue a big issue and becomes zealous on preaching on this issue.

As an example, here is what I read about Hyper-Calvinism, which clearly prove that it is an heresy:

• True and important biblical teachings are silenced with philosophical assumptions (as shown below)
• Lack of desire to preach the Gospel to the lost. It is even considered wrong to do it, because we could tempt a non-elect person to embrace the Gospel!
• Neglect of prayer as something considered to be useless, since it won’t change what God has willed
• Denial of personal responsibility:
  • God is made responsible for all the acts of man (Well, I would not have committed this sin had it not been God’s sovereign will)
  • The command to be watchful every day is ignored

John Piper summarizes very well how we can avoid heresies: That’s the absolutely crucial thing: believe and teach what the whole Bible, rightly understood, teaches, and believe it and teach it in biblical proportion — biblical balance — so that no Scripture is used to silence the meaning and importance of other Scriptures.

For me it is also undeniable that when we see the fruits of the ministry of people like John Bunyan, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Wilhelm Busch, we see good fruits, independent to the fact that some of them were Calvinists and some weren't.

Source:

What is hyper-Calvinism and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is hyper-Calvinism and is it biblical? How is Hyper-Calvinism different from Calvinism?

www.gotquestions.org

What Is Hyper-Calvinism?

Doctrinal systems can help us summarize the Bible’s teaching, but they are never a substitute for Scripture itself.

www.desiringgod.org

The Antinomianism of the Hyper-Calvinist

www.prbc1689.org

 

[brightfame52]

That’s correct, TULIP isn’t found in scripture because it’s not from God.


Scriptures are what God has given us.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Heresy is a work of the flesh. Christians who practice spreading heresies will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

Then exactly, Tulip is the Gospel, you reject it, you reject Gods Gospel, which is to reject God

 

[Tulipbee]

Yes, that is why we don't teach "once saved always saved" the way people misunderstand it as "once saved you can go on and live like the Devil and still make it to heaven." The 5th point is Perseverance of the Saints.

Basically once born again, you will persevere to the end.
Jude 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy

1 Cor. 1:7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The concept of "Perseverance of the Saints" asserts that those who are truly born again will persevere in faith until the end. This doctrine is often supported by verses like Jude 1:24 and 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, which emphasize God's ability to keep believers from stumbling and to present them blameless on the day of judgment.

In contrast, Arminianism, while affirming the importance of perseverance in the Christian life, does not necessarily hold to the idea of "once saved, always saved" in the same way. Arminians believe in the possibility of apostasy, where individuals who were once believers can choose to reject their faith and turn away from God.

The difference lies in the understanding of God's sovereignty and human free will. Calvinists emphasize God's sovereign grace in securing the salvation of believers, while Arminians emphasize the role of human response and cooperation with God's grace in maintaining faith and perseverance.

Ultimately, both Calvinists and Arminians seek to affirm the security of the believer while recognizing the tension between God's sovereignty and human responsibility in the process of salvation and sanctification.

 

[Tulipbee]

Calvinism like Arminianism is made made teachings.


Disciples of Jesus Christ follow His teachings.

Disciples of man follow the teachings of men.


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
Watering, Working, Warning
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 1 Corinthians 3:1-5

• For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

JLB

Thank you for sharing your perspective. It seems you're highlighting the importance of adhering to the teachings of Jesus Christ rather than following the teachings of men or human-made doctrines. The passage from 1 Corinthians 3:1-5 underscores the need for spiritual maturity and unity among believers, rather than division based on human allegiances or interpretations.

Indeed, within Christianity, there are various theological perspectives, including Calvinism and Arminianism, which have their origins in the interpretations of Scripture by theologians and scholars. However, your emphasis on following the teachings of Jesus Christ and fostering unity among believers is a fundamental aspect of Christian faith that transcends theological differences.

Unity in Christ and adherence to His teachings are essential for the growth and edification of the body of believers. The focus should be on spiritual maturity, love, and unity, rather than divisive adherence to particular human interpretations or theological systems.

Thank you for sharing these insights.

 

[Whatever]

Arminians believe in the possibility of apostasy, where individuals who were once believers can choose to reject their faith and turn away from God.

Calvinists believe the same thing. But not everybody who professes faith is a true born again believer.

 

[Whatever]

I think that we can judge whether a doctrine is an heresy according to the fruits it produces in the life of those who believe it.

And then you turn around and post about Hyper-Calvinism. That is what they call the "straw man" argument.
Put up stuff about Hyper-Calvinists, damn them as heretics and then equate them as true Calvinists.

 

[Free]

And then you turn around and post about Hyper-Calvinism. That is what they call the "straw man" argument.
Put up stuff about Hyper-Calvinists, damn them as heretics and then equate them as true Calvinists.

To me, it doesn’t look at all like that’s what was done. I think the point was just that some doctrines can be taken to an extreme, at which point they can become heresies. I don’t see any equating hyper-Calvinism with Calvinism.

 

[Whatever]

I don’t see any equating hyper-Calvinism with Calvinism

Then why bring it up on the Calvinism forum?

 

[Free]

Then why bring it up on the Calvinism forum?

Because a specific argument is being made that is relevant to the discussion.

 

[JJonas]

Thank you for sharing your perspective. It seems you're highlighting the importance of adhering to the teachings of Jesus Christ rather than following the teachings of men or human-made doctrines.

Unity in Christ and adherence to His teachings are essential for the growth and edification of the body of believers. The focus should be on spiritual maturity, love, and unity, rather than divisive adherence to particular human interpretations or theological systems.

Exaclty! This is what I heard about the christians in China. First they only had the Bible and they enjoyed a great unity. Later, western believers sent christian literature, thinking to be helpful to the chinese christians. Unfortunately, this caused much divisions between them, as they were introduced to new and contradicting doctrines.

 

[JJonas]

And then you turn around and post about Hyper-Calvinism. That is what they call the "straw man" argument.
Put up stuff about Hyper-Calvinists, damn them as heretics and then equate them as true Calvinists.

I don't know how you came to this conclusion.

First, in my message I quoted John Piper, a well known Calvinist as he wrote about Hyper-Calvinist.

Second I wrote that we can see good fruits in the ministry of some Calvinists like George Whitefield or Charles Spurgeon. By the way, Spurgeon did much to fight Hyper-Calvinism. I can also testify that one of his book (All of Grace) was a great benediction for my life, because it helped me to understand how central the work of Christ on the Cross is for the christian life! So I am in no way enclined to call Spurgeon (or anyone else) an heretic for the mere fact that he was a Calvinist!

 

[Whatever]

I don't know how you came to this conclusion.

Me either. I just read your "Greetings from Switzerland" I'm tired. I better log off and do something else for awhile.

 

[Iconoclast]

True.
But this concept is not followed, nor required, in this Calvinism Forum.

See post 108, and many others.

It is followed here, just calvinists do not attack each other, and are free to post without getting edited, deleted, or banned.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is followed here, just calvinists do not attack each other, and are free to post without getting edited, deleted, or banned.

And acting uncivilly, disrespectfully, unlovingly and unchristianly toward non cals.

It's a sad fact that you find it difficult to post in any Forum other than the Calvinism Forum.

Other members do not have your problem and post everywhere.

Guess they live what they believe.
Talk is cheap.

 

[electedbyHim]

Agreed.


Those who promote and practice the work of Heresy should be labeled as such.


But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:16-19

• Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal:

Calvinism is a doctrine of man.


We need to focus on what the scriptures say, and turn away from the teachings and traditions of man.


I have stood for this for the last 12 years here, and will continue.





JLB

What is the heresy?

 

[Iconoclast]

And acting uncivilly, disrespectfully, unlovingly and unchristianly toward non cals.

It's a sad fact that you find it difficult to post in any Forum other than the Calvinism Forum.

Other members do not have your problem and post everywhere.

Guess they live what they believe.
Talk is cheap.

Your posting is both foul, and offensive.You should censor yourself instead of pretending you are impartial. I know the reformed brothers are interested in truth.If you want to interact with me, come to my forum.
I will not hide behind subjective tos rules, I will not delete your posts, I have no need to ban anyone because the truth will not go away.People like you cannot stand it in a Forum that is packed with solid Bible teachers, articles , and videos.
You slander reformed theology 24/7.All reformed brothers know it as soon as you post.
You sit there waiting to claim tos violations, because you cannot answer any of us.Now you claim my posts are bad,when it is you who get nasty.

 

[Tulipbee]

Exaclty! This is what I heard about the christians in China. First they only had the Bible and they enjoyed a great unity. Later, western believers sent christian literature, thinking to be helpful to the chinese christians. Unfortunately, this caused much divisions between them, as they were introduced to new and contradicting doctrines.

JJonas, I appreciate your positive reviews and your reflection on the unity among believers in China. It's a poignant reminder of the importance of sticking to the core teachings of Jesus Christ without introducing unnecessary divisions through additional doctrines.

Regarding Jesus potentially being in India, it's indeed an intriguing perspective. India has a rich spiritual history, including beliefs about Mary (they had statues of Mary there long before RCC did) that predate the formation of the Roman Catholic Church. The notion that Saint Issa (as written in ancient Buddhism documents) shared insights about his mother Mary with Indian communities adds another layer to the fascinating tapestry of religious history.

Exploring such historical connections can shed light on the diverse ways in which faith traditions have evolved and intersected over time. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and contributing to this engaging discussion!