Baptism in the Spirit: The experience

[Edward]

That PROPHECY was fulfilled by THEM THAT BELIEVE

So we are not counted in Them that Believe?

17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

So why wouldn't we be counted as Those who Believe as in this verse?

There's no good reason that we are not accounted as those who believe in the Lord's Name. This is talking to me. This is talking to you.

The Apostles were the first of many to walk in these things, and, it aint over yet.

 

[Cooper]

Let's look at this verse closely .

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

If it as you say only for the apostles , why did not say so ?
Why didn't it say , "And these signs shall follow you " meaning the apostles . ?
Why didn't it say , "And these signs shall follow my disciples " ?
Why didn't it say, "And these signs shall follow my apostles " ?

Since you are having trouble understanding the KJV, here is another translation of Mark16:17
Contemporary English Version
Everyone who believes me will be able to do wonderful things. By using my name they will force out demons, and they will speak new languages.

EVERYONE

Good News Translation
Believers will be given the power to perform miracles: they will drive out demons in my name; they will speak in strange tongues;

Believers

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; To Mark 16:17 can be added, "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (irrevocable, for all time.) (Rom 11:29 KJV)
.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Let's look at this verse closely .

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

If it as you say only for the apostles , why did not say so ?
Why didn't it say , "And these signs shall follow you " meaning the apostles . ?
Why didn't it say , "And these signs shall follow my disciples " ?
Why didn't it say, "And these signs shall follow my apostles " ?

Since you are having trouble understanding the KJV, here is another translation of Mark16:17
Contemporary English Version
Everyone who believes me will be able to do wonderful things. By using my name they will force out demons, and they will speak new languages.

EVERYONE

Good News Translation
Believers will be given the power to perform miracles: they will drive out demons in my name; they will speak in strange tongues;

Believers

The "Good News Translation" rejects the entire context as real scripture, they put it all in brackets calling it "an old ending". For example, they give two versions for the last verses:

19 After the Lord Jesus had talked with them, he was taken up to heaven and sat at the right side of God. 20The disciples went and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and proved that their preaching was true by the miracles that were performed.]

ANOTHER OLD ENDING+​

[ 9The women went to Peter and his friends and gave them a brief account of all they had been told. 10After this, Jesus himself sent out through his disciples from the east to the west the sacred and everliving message of eternal salvation.]

But notice, even if I accepted their verdict, the same result occurs...the Prophecy was fulfilled, that is what both endings say.

BUT I do not accept their theories of text transmission, trusting God preserved His Word.

Nor do I accept your refusal to heed the author's clear intent, to show the disciples BELIEVED and therefore the signs followed them PROVING THAT THEIR PREACHING WAS TRUE.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So we are not counted in Them that Believe?



So why wouldn't we be counted as Those who Believe as in this verse?

There's no good reason that we are not accounted as those who believe in the Lord's Name. This is talking to me. This is talking to you.

The Apostles were the first of many to walk in these things, and, it aint over yet.

The author excludes us, he says the disciples believed and the signs followed them proving their preaching was true, in the first century.

We can't appropriate what applies to others, to ourselves. Ravens would not bring us food if we hid by the Brook Cherith:

2 Then the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
3 "Get away from here and turn eastward, and hide by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan.
4 "And it will be that you shall drink from the brook, and I have commanded the ravens to feed you there."
5 So he went and did according to the word of the LORD, for he went and stayed by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan.
6 The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning, and bread and meat in the evening; and he drank from the brook.
(1 Ki. 17:2-6 NKJ)

The author implies the disciples believed because they manifested the signs that proved they believed and God confirmed they believed and spoke the truth by the signs that followed them:

And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:20-1:1 NKJ)

The antecedent of the pronouns "they them" is not you or me, its the disciples.

Some things were said to the disciples only, and sometimes Christ would clarify it was said to all:

"And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" (Mk. 13:37 NKJ)

We must heed the context of scripture and not appropriate to ourselves what belongs to others.

 

[jaybo]

The author excludes us, he says the disciples believed and the signs followed them proving their preaching was true, in the first century.

We can't appropriate what applies to others, to ourselves. Ravens would not bring us food if we hid by the Brook Cherith:

2 Then the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
3 "Get away from here and turn eastward, and hide by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan.
4 "And it will be that you shall drink from the brook, and I have commanded the ravens to feed you there."
5 So he went and did according to the word of the LORD, for he went and stayed by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan.
6 The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning, and bread and meat in the evening; and he drank from the brook.
(1 Ki. 17:2-6 NKJ)

The author says the disciples believed and proved they believed and spoke the truth by the signs that followed them:

And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:20-1:1 NKJ)

Some things were said to the disciples only, and sometimes Christ would clarify it was said to all:

"And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" (Mk. 13:37 NKJ)

We must heed the context of scripture and not appropriate to ourselves what belongs to others.

What other parts of Scripture would you like to eliminate? Why do you consider yourself qualified to edit the Bible?

God has given gifts to people throughout all of history.

Numbers 23:19a, "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a human being, that he should change his mind."

 

[Hopeful]

Just as counterfeit money is detected by its inferior printing, paper, ink etc, so also can counterfeit signs and wonders be detected by its inferiority when compared to the real things from God:

Charismaniac signs and wonders are inferior to what we see in Scripture where EVERYONE is healed, even those Peter's shadow fell upon:

12 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch.
13 Yet none of the rest dared join them, but the people esteemed them highly.
14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,
15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them.
16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed. (Acts 5:12-16 NKJ)

Its fraud to claim the counterfeit is genuine.

It is blasphemy to accredit the devil for the works of God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So we are not counted in Them that Believe?



So why wouldn't we be counted as Those who Believe as in this verse?

There's no good reason that we are not accounted as those who believe in the Lord's Name. This is talking to me. This is talking to you.

The Apostles were the first of many to walk in these things, and, it aint over yet.

No good reason EXCEPT context, explicit statement the disciples fulfilled the prophecy in the 1st century:

15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:16-20 NKJ)

The author wanted to make it clear the apostles truly believed Christ and preached the true gospel, God proving by confirming signs.

Recall there were eventually 120 founding apostles and prophets "who believed and manifested these signs."

Christ isn't speaking only to the Twelve. He is speaking to the Seventy or more that followed Him, whom He personally chose to be His disciples, and sent them out on this mission. These "signs" proved to them which of the group truly believed, and God approved of, showing His approval by the accompanying signs.

We don't know how many disciples Christ is speaking to at this time, but it was certainly more than seventy as God the Father answered His prayer. But they were all selected by Christ and sent out by Him, in the 1st century:

1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.
2 Then He said to them, "The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.
3 "Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves.
4 "Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road.
5 "But whatever house you enter, first say,`Peace to this house.'
6 "And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you.
7 "And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house.
8 "Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.
9 "And heal the sick there, and say to them,`The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
10 "But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say,
11 `The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.'
12 "But I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom than for that city. (Lk. 10:1-12 NKJ)

Just as we cannot appropriate to ourselves what Christ said to the Seventy, neither can we insert ourselves into the group Christ was speaking to, instructing them on how to discern who among them truly believed, and preached the true gospel.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It is blasphemy to accredit the devil for the works of God.

I didn't do that. Read it again.

But you should know Satan can work Christian like signs and wonders through weeds he sowed in the church, or this text wouldn't exist:

20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
(Matt. 7:20-23 NKJ)

As the Spirit of Christ NEVER knew them, the prophecy and casting out demons was NOT done by God's Spirit.

We can know who the weeds are by their fruits of disobedience to "the will of My Father", the Holy Scripture:

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1 Jn. 4:6 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

What other parts of Scripture would you like to eliminate? Why do you consider yourself qualified to edit the Bible?

God has given gifts to people throughout all of history.

Numbers 23:19a, "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a human being, that he should change his mind."

Eisegesis and slander doesn't affect sound exegesis of the passage, but it does prove you can't stand the plain meaning of the text so you strike out at me, the messenger of the bad news.

 

[Edward]

The author excludes us, he says the disciples believed and the signs followed them proving their preaching was true, in the first century.

We can't appropriate what applies to others, to ourselves. Ravens would not bring us food if we hid by the Brook Cherith:

2 Then the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
3 "Get away from here and turn eastward, and hide by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan.
4 "And it will be that you shall drink from the brook, and I have commanded the ravens to feed you there."
5 So he went and did according to the word of the LORD, for he went and stayed by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan.
6 The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning, and bread and meat in the evening; and he drank from the brook.
(1 Ki. 17:2-6 NKJ)

The author implies the disciples believed because they manifested the signs that proved they believed and God confirmed they believed and spoke the truth by the signs that followed them:

And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:20-1:1 NKJ)

The antecedent of the pronouns "they them" is not you or me, its the disciples.

Some things were said to the disciples only, and sometimes Christ would clarify it was said to all:

"And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" (Mk. 13:37 NKJ)

We must heed the context of scripture and not appropriate to ourselves what belongs to others.

No, what comes to my mind is oh ye of little faith. While it may be true that not every single verse in scripture is directly to us, there is nothing excluding everyone except the Apostles. God is no respecter of persons. Than means what He will do for one, He will do for another...who believes.

If you can't see that the Lord is talking to you there, then it's time to pray about it and ask the Holy Spirit to sshow you what you're missing here.

The Bible story about the Ravens feeding the Prophet, was a story to let us know that when the Spirit Hits The Fan, that God will feed you. Stories of manna falling from heaven, letting us know that even if He lets us wander in a desert to be tried that He will feed us.. And you know what else He taught me through that story? Don't complain!!

So I am here to attest to you Brother, that you are wrong about this aand I know from personal experience.

Would you like to hear my personal Testimony about when I was self employed and was 2 months behind in rent (+ a 300 utility shut off notice for 3 days from now) and broke and no groceries...Help me Lord...and the Lord sent His ministering Angel to my garage sale and he bought 2400 $ worth of stuff from me. (useless house junk for the most part lol.

Or maybe the one about...The Lord delivered to my home 2 pounds of Gourmet coffee beans one time, when I was out of coffee, I almost prayed for it but remembered the scriptures, He knows our needs before we ask, and, do not worry about your food or your drink...so I didn't pray that prayer! (and THAT was an act of Faith of standing on Hos word. My coffee was knocking on my door 30 minutes later!

The main reason I have never raised anyone from the dead, is because I've never tried to. Because I believe that it could very well happen because I believe on His name, and I am in Christ, and more importantly, Christ is in me.

So tell me again how Christ can be in His Believers, and they can't raise the dead again?

 

[Hopeful]

I didn't do that. Read it again.

Pardon me, please, as I wasn't accusing you or anyone of anything.
But the idea that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer graciously allotted impugns the veracity of the Giver of such gifts.

But you should know Satan can work Christian like signs and wonders through weeds he sowed in the church, or this text wouldn't exist:
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
(Matt. 7:20-23 NKJ)
As the Spirit of Christ NEVER knew them, the prophecy and casting out demons was NOT done by God's Spirit.
We can know who the weeds are by their fruits of disobedience to "the will of My Father", the Holy Scripture:
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1 Jn. 4:6 NKJ)

Amen to that.
If one sees a worker of miracles, just ask them if they commit sin.
Than you will know the source of said gift.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, what comes to my mind is oh ye of little faith. While it may be true that not every single verse in scripture is directly to us, there is nothing excluding everyone except the Apostles. God is no respecter of persons. Than means what He will do for one, He will do for another...who believes.

If you can't see that the Lord is talking to you there, then it's time to pray about it and ask the Holy Spirit to sshow you what you're missing here.

The Bible story about the Ravens feeding the Prophet, was a story to let us know that when the Spirit Hits The Fan, that God will feed you. Stories of manna falling from heaven, letting us know that even if He lets us wander in a desert to be tried that He will feed us.. And you know what else He taught me through that story? Don't complain!!

So I am here to attest to you Brother, that you are wrong about this aand I know from personal experience.

Would you like to hear my personal Testimony about when I was self employed and was 2 months behind in rent (+ a 300 utility shut off notice for 3 days from now) and broke and no groceries...Help me Lord...and the Lord sent His ministering Angel to my garage sale and he bought 2400 $ worth of stuff from me. (useless house junk for the most part lol.

Or maybe the one about...The Lord delivered to my home 2 pounds of Gourmet coffee beans one time, when I was out of coffee, I almost prayed for it but remembered the scriptures, He knows our needs before we ask, and, do not worry about your food or your drink...so I didn't pray that prayer! (and THAT was an act of Faith of standing on Hos word. My coffee was knocking on my door 30 minutes later!

The main reason I have never raised anyone from the dead, is because I've never tried to. Because I believe that it could very well happen because I believe on His name, and I am in Christ, and more importantly, Christ is in me.

So tell me again how Christ can be in His Believers, and they can't raise the dead again?

We can't raise the dead. If you tried you would fail. God reserves those special signs for His prophets and apostles, to confirm they speak His Word.

Its a special purpose sign. If there weren't signs only apostles could manifest, Paul could not claim he manifested signs only apostles manifest:

Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. (2 Cor. 12:12 NKJ)

That by itself proves Cessationism is true, some signs and wonders are manifested ONLY by those God selects, not everyone, no matter how strong their belief.

Everything is by the will of God, NOT ours. Even when the revelatory gifts of the Spirit were still being given out, they were reserved for particular people, each person received the gift they needed to do the job Christ ordained for them in the body of Christ:

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. (1 Cor. 12:7-11 NKJ)

Regardless how strong one's belief, they would not get the gift God didn't want to give.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Pardon me, please, as I wasn't accusing you or anyone of anything.
But the idea that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer graciously allotted impugns the veracity of the Giver of such gifts.

Amen to that.
If one sees a worker of miracles, just ask them if they commit sin.
Than you will know the source of said gift.

I'll accept your denial, that it wasn't your intent. But I don't "impugn God" when I point out "he will not part the red sea for you, regardless how often you strike it with your staff"

Sorry, that miracle has ceased, served its purpose and isn't going to be repeated regardless how strong you believe it should.

 

[jaybo]

Eisegesis and slander doesn't affect sound exegesis of the passage, but it does prove you can't stand the plain meaning of the text so you strike out at me, the messenger of the bad news.

I agree totally that eisegesis and slander don't affect sound exegesis of the passage, but it does prove you can't stand the plain meaning of the text so you strike out at me.

 

[jaybo]

I'll accept your denial, that it wasn't your intent. But I don't "impugn God" when I point out "he will not part the red sea for you, regardless how often you strike it with your staff"

Sorry, that miracle has ceased, served its purpose and isn't going to be repeated regardless how strong you believe it should.

This is a nonsensical reply to "But the idea that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer graciously allotted impugns the veracity of the Giver of such gifts."

Just because you haven't received any of the gifts of the Spirit doesn't mean that others, including me, haven't.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is a nonsensical reply to "But the idea that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer graciously allotted impugns the veracity of the Giver of such gifts."

Just because you haven't received any of the gifts of the Spirit doesn't mean that others, including me, haven't.

Incorrect, the revelatory gifts were ceasing even in the 1st century, around 50 AD. That is why Paul discusses their cessation, they were ceasing and that caused dismay among the Corinthians:

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect (5046 τέλειος teleios) has come, then that which is in part (3313 μέρος meros) will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
(1 Cor. 13:8-12 NKJ)


An analogy to Paul's point:

Some in the crowd had ice cream cones that were melting in the sun. So Paul consoles them, "When the ice cream factory is built, ice cream cones will be done away. Only gallons of the stuff will exist."

Paul did not promise the ice cream cones will continue until the factory is built, only that such "partial (3313 μέρος meros) [revelation]" would vanish; and when the "complete (5046 τέλειος teleios) [revelation]" came no one would miss them.

 

[hawkman]

The "Good News Translation" rejects the entire context as real scripture, they put it all in brackets calling it "an old ending". For example, they give two versions for the last verses:

19 After the Lord Jesus had talked with them, he was taken up to heaven and sat at the right side of God. 20The disciples went and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and proved that their preaching was true by the miracles that were performed.]

ANOTHER OLD ENDING+​

[ 9The women went to Peter and his friends and gave them a brief account of all they had been told. 10After this, Jesus himself sent out through his disciples from the east to the west the sacred and everliving message of eternal salvation.]

But notice, even if I accepted their verdict, the same result occurs...the Prophecy was fulfilled, that is what both endings say.

BUT I do not accept their theories of text transmission, trusting God preserved His Word.

Ah yes the nuclear option , I knew it was coming a few minutes after I posted .
Both of the endings you don't accept prove you right . Have you ever held a political office ?

Nor do I accept your refusal to heed the author's clear intent, to show the disciples BELIEVED and therefore the signs followed them PROVING THAT THEIR PREACHING WAS TRUE.

Once the Holy Spirit speaks through you giving the utterance it is game over . If you ever had any doubts they cease .

 

[Alfred Persson]

Ah yes the nuclear option , I knew it was coming a few minutes after I posted .
Both of the endings you don't accept prove you right . Have you ever held a political office ?

Once the Holy Spirit speaks through you giving the utterance it is game over . If you ever had any doubts they cease .

I reject the theories that delete verses from the Bible, nor do I accept those that add to the Bible. The Byzantine Family of mss used by the church since the days of the apostles, like the Textus Receptus are the word of God. So the "long ending" in Mark is definitely Holy Scripture.

I love God's Word, I obey God's Word, I don't change God's Word:

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1 Jn. 4:6 NKJ)

 

[Hopeful]

I'll accept your denial, that it wasn't your intent.

Thankyou.

But I don't "impugn God" when I point out "he will not part the red sea for you, regardless how often you strike it with your staff"

You doubt His power, I don't.

Sorry, that miracle has ceased, served its purpose and isn't going to be repeated regardless how strong you believe it should.

I believe it because it happened to me.
To the glory of God and the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Thankyou.

You doubt His power, I don't.

I believe it because it happened to me.
To the glory of God and the name of Jesus Christ.

Experiences prove something to us, but not others.

Scripture alone is the true authority.

But as for myself, I took Paul's counsel to heart and tested my experiences by scripture. I am satisfied they are the same as in the NT, and that God is with me:

5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-- unless indeed you are disqualified.
6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified. (2 Cor. 13:5-6 NKJ)