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[Rollo Tamasi]

I said this about Charles Templeton:
"It makes no sense that he would have preached what he never believed in the first place."

Immaterial. He preached the biblical gospel, along with BG.


Where does the Bible say that Judas ever preached the biblical gospel?


Of course not. And I never insinuated such.

Point is: CT believed the gospel, proven by preaching it for years, and mentoring BG.
CT then lost his faith, and quit believing.

Yet, Rom 8:38 is clear; "Neither the present, nor the future" shall separate us from the love of Christ.

Or John 10:28; recipients of eternal life shall never perish.


Jesus acknowledged that some people will "believe for a while" and then fall away. He was describing CT.

Matthew Chapter 10 - He preached "The Kingdom of Heaven is near".

CT had doubts about his faith right from the beginning.
The longer he went on , the more discouraged he became.
In his books he wrote, there are many errors a Bible scholar as himself should never have made.
Don't put him on a pedestal, he doesn't belong there.

 

[MCoop]

That's very questionable why he would do anything.
You never knew him.
If he was saved, then Judas Iscariot was saved.
And who knows how many others fit this category.

A person's unclear actions do not a doctrine make.

Both were not saved. This is evident in their actions. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing that do not possess the faith that is given by God, via regeneration. A counterfeit and superficial belief are nothing more than tares among wheat. The reformed or Calvinistic view of soteriology is the only correct view according to scripture. It is why these threads go round and round.. simply because they are man centered and Arminian in nature. Kidron said it earlier. Faith is only the means by which God brings a sinner to salvation and keeps him. Not the cause. It’s all of grace! Ones works, whatever they may be, does nothing towards ones justification towards God.. but only the fruit that follows. To teach otherwise is to teach and believe a false gospel as Galatians 1:8. Work based salvation is being promoted and the reason this thread was started. Can’t believe others can’t see this. John Gills commentary explained it well when civilwarbuff posted it earlier. But yet the “easy believism” tag is always falsely labeled to those who hold to grace alone and that by faith alone in salvation in Christ. Just to promote works salvation

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't disagree with your point.
I just don't believe a person who is filled with the Holy Spirit could walk away from Jesus forever.

I see a clear distinction between being indwelt with the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Paul commands believers to quit grieving (Eph 4:30) and quit quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19). Such believers are not filled with the Spirit, though they are indwelt with the Spirit.

We as humans don't have that kind of power.

Correct. Just as we don't have the power to save ourselves or place ourselves into union with Christ, or seal ourselves with the Spirit, we don't have the power to undo any of this either.

Or the Bible would have made that clear.

 

[FreeGrace]

If Jesus is the giver of eternal life then we trust in Him to give us that eternal life.

Of course He is the Giver of eternal life. He SAID so. John 10:28

And those who believe in Him HAVE the gift. Because He SAID so. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47

We cannot have eternal life if we abandon the one who gives it to us.

Show me the verse, please.

If this statement was true, then Joh 10:28 would have said:
"I give them eternal life, and IF they don't abandon Me, they shall never perish."

But it doesn't say that.

There are NO CONDITIONS for never perishing after receiving eternal life.

This fact cannot be refuted. Those who try are only "kicking against the goads" and trying to refute what Jesus said.

 

[FreeGrace]

Matthew Chapter 10 - He preached "The Kingdom of Heaven is near".

CT had doubts about his faith right from the beginning.

Is there a source for this?

The longer he went on , the more discouraged he became.
In his books he wrote, there are many errors a Bible scholar as himself should never have made.
Don't put him on a pedestal, he doesn't belong there.

I didn't. I only mention him as an evangelist who preached the gospel and led many to Christ, all B4 he ceased to believe.

 

[FreeGrace]

Both were not saved. This is evident in their actions.

While actions might demonstrate one's salvation, lack of actions don't prove lack of salvation.

There are many wolves in sheeps clothing that do not possess the faith that is given by God, via regeneration.

The order is wrong here. Regeneration follows the action of believing. Eph 2:5 and 8 demonstrate that clearly.

A counterfeit and superficial belief are nothing more than tares among wheat.

Yet, the Bible never speaks of such "faith".

The reformed or Calvinistic view of soteriology is the only correct view according to scripture. It is why these threads go round and round.. simply because they are man centered and Arminian in nature.

I have as many disagreements with Arminians as I do with Calvinists. However, re: "man centered salvation". Just who did Jesus die for anyway?

Oh, gee. Mankind. How about that. Christ died for people. And God saves those who believe, exactly as 1 Cor 1:21 says:
"For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."

Kidron said it earlier. Faith is only the means by which God brings a sinner to salvation and keeps him. Not the cause. It’s all of grace! Ones works, whatever they may be, does nothing towards ones justification towards God

Amen!

.. but only the fruit that follows. To teach otherwise is to teach and believe a false gospel as Galatians 1:8. Work based salvation is being promoted and the reason this thread was started. Can’t believe others can’t see this.

I agree completely. OSNAS tries to insert conditions on those given eternal life in order to never perish. In spite of what Jesus said in John 10:28.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

If any of this was true, then why didn't Jesus just say so clearly:

"I give them eternal life and IF or AS LONG AS they keep obeying Me, they shall never perish." John 10:28

Now, IF Jesus had said that, you'd have a point. But He didn't.


Simple, really. For blessings and eternal reward.

What else?

The emphasis on obedience makes works or effort part of how one is saved. Which takes AWAY what Christ did, and ADDS what you've done.

There is NOTHING one can do to ADD to salvation. We can only ACCEPT what Christ did for us. That's believing in Him.

Anything else is unbiblical.

brother FG if just believing was the way to salvation WHY did the Christ not ask the RICH man to just believe ---------------if for an instance we consider the saved by faith only doctrine is good? In fact Jesus said anything but faith! WHY? is it because there is different salvation doctrine for different people, or is something far BEYOND easy believism doctrine ---which is pure unadulterated HERESY in my opinion


Mark 10: 17-31

As Jesus was starting out on his way to Jerusalem, a man came running up to him, knelt down, and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus: “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. You must not cheat anyone. Honor your father and mother.
“Teacher,” the man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.”
Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.
Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!” 24 This amazed them. But Jesus said again, “Dear children, it is very hard[b] to enter the Kingdom of God. In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Written by an unknown man 16 years ago.

Having known Charles Templeton personally, he was never an atheist. He did become an agnostic after completing studies at a liberal college. On his death bed, he did confess Jesus and His saving grace. He and Billy Graham remained friends throughout.

Charles was the pastor of the Avenue Road Church, prior to another famous preacher.

We all experience periods of doubt, but that does not negate our born again experience. Some are more outwardly expressive than others because they are more public.

Just another problem we face with labels.

 

[MCoop]

While actions might demonstrate one's salvation, lack of actions don't prove lack of salvation.


The order is wrong here. Regeneration follows the action of believing. Eph 2:5 and 8 demonstrate that clearly.


Yet, the Bible never speaks of such "faith".


I have as many disagreements with Arminians as I do with Calvinists. However, re: "man centered salvation". Just who did Jesus die for anyway?

Oh, gee. Mankind. How about that. Christ died for people. And God saves those who believe, exactly as 1 Cor 1:21 says:
"For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."


Amen!


I agree completely. OSNAS tries to insert conditions on those given eternal life in order to never perish. In spite of what Jesus said in John 10:28.

And this is where we disagree. Faith is always the fruit of being regenerated by Gods grace upon hearing the gospel of Christ. It is why salvation is all of grace, and that not of yourselves. And you know what I mean by man centered. Arminian soteriology is man centered. There’s no grace in man centered soteriology. There’s no gospel in man centered soteriology. There is no Christ in man centered soteriology. It is why Paul said what he said in Galatians. Man centered soteriology starts with man and ends with man. It’s foundation and assurance is his works, not Christ’s. This is what happens when there’s no faith. Romans 4:16. Those who seek to be justified by the law are void of faith. For one to truly come to Christ and rest in His merits alone for salvation, will deny himself and surrender and seek the mercy of Christ for deliverance from his sin.. and this is a sovereign act of God that was purposed before the foundation of the world

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Brothers and sisters may God's grace be upon you. If nobody explains why Jesus did NOT ask the rich man to just believe in Him instead of asking the rich man to keep God's commands, then I will believe this account of the Rich man and Christ conclusively proves that Faith without works is dead and CANNOT save all on its own. For the grace and righteousness of Christ is imputed ONLY to the obedient believer... shall I say, FOLLOWER. A much better word.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

And this is where we disagree. Faith is always the fruit of being regenerated by Gods grace upon hearing the gospel of Christ. It is why salvation is all of grace, and that not of yourselves. And you know what I mean by man centered. Arminian soteriology is man centered. There’s no grace in man centered soteriology. There’s no gospel in man centered soteriology. There is no Christ in man centered soteriology. It is why Paul said what he said in Galatians. Man-centered soteriology starts with man and ends with man. It’s foundation and assurance is his works, not Christ’s. This is what happens when there’s no faith. Romans 4:16. Those who seek to be justified by the law are void of faith. For one to truly come to Christ and rest in His merits alone for salvation, will deny himself and surrender and seek the mercy of Christ for deliverance from his sin.. and this is a sovereign act of God that was purposed before the foundation of the world

I completely agree with what you posted Mcoop, especially these words: Those who seek to be justified by the law are void of faith. For one to truly come to Christ and rest in His merits alone for salvation, will deny himself and surrender and seek the mercy of Christ for deliverance from his sin.. and this is a sovereign act of God that was purposed before the foundation of the world.
Mcoop you correctly put it. Christ wants 100% surrender. He wants to sit on the thrones of the heart of the follower and rule from their over our lives in EVERYTHING. And if we want that to happen we must completely surrender to the Lord ---- doing HIS will above ours..... that's where the magic happens

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Both were not saved. This is evident in their actions. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing that do not possess the faith that is given by God, via regeneration. A counterfeit and superficial belief are nothing more than tares among wheat. The reformed or Calvinistic view of soteriology is the only correct view according to scripture. It is why these threads go round and round.. simply because they are man centered and Arminian in nature. Kidron said it earlier. Faith is only the means by which God brings a sinner to salvation and keeps him. Not the cause. It’s all of grace! Ones works, whatever they may be, does nothing towards ones justification towards God.. but only the fruit that follows. To teach otherwise is to teach and believe a false gospel as Galatians 1:8. Work based salvation is being promoted and the reason this thread was started. Can’t believe others can’t see this. John Gills commentary explained it well when civilwarbuff posted it earlier. But yet the “easy believism” tag is always falsely labeled to those who hold to grace alone and that by faith alone in salvation in Christ. Just to promote works salvation

again I like and agree this what you spoke ..... There are many wolves in sheeps clothing that do not possess the faith that is given by God, via regeneration. A counterfeit and superficial belief are nothing more than tares among wheat.
But where are these counterfeit believers coming from? what is the root cause for this ailment which is threatening to destroy Christ's Church and His deep teachings of love, salvation, and redemption? Its EASY BELIEVISM, the heretical doctrine. its encouraging "belivers " to LOSE all fear of God ( why must I fear God when I have eternal irrevocable salvation?) . It also encourages the easy believers to CONDEMN all other faith religions who do not believe in Christ, when God Himself says "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Let us not judge my friends lest we be judged warned Jesus.
Matthew 7 : 1-2
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"If any of this was true, then why didn't Jesus just say so clearly:

"I give them eternal life and IF or AS LONG AS they keep obeying Me, they shall never perish." John 10:28

Now, IF Jesus had said that, you'd have a point. But He didn't."

brother FG if just believing was the way to salvation WHY did the Christ not ask the RICH man to just believe

I couldn't help but notice there was no answer to my question. As if it didn't exist. But John 10:28 DOES EXIST. So please don't try to pit verses against each other.

John 10:28 is THE PERFECT verse to give conditions to recipients of eternal life IF there WERE such conditions.

The FACT that Jesus gave no conditions DEMONSTRATES that there are no conditions for recipients.

---------------if for an instance we consider the saved by faith only doctrine is good?

Why would I question whether Jesus' teaching is good? Of course it's good.

In fact Jesus said anything but faith! WHY?

Because He wasn't even trying to evangelize the RYR. He was involved in what is called "pre-evangelism".

is it because there is different salvation doctrine for different people, or is something far BEYOND easy believism doctrine ---which is pure unadulterated HERESY in my opinion

I'm not interested in people's opinions, but what the Bible SAYS. And Jesus DID SAY that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

And that's eternal security.

 

[chessman]

If nobody explains why Jesus did NOT ask the rich man to just believe in Him instead of asking the rich man to keep God's commands, then I will believe this account of the Rich man and Christ

There’s nothing to explain. This man was a Jew keeping the commandments. He will enter heaven. He had difficulty following Jesus’s other command (sell your possessions and follow Me) but so???

And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you that a rich one will enter with-difficulty into the kingdom of the heavens.​

Matthew 19:23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 19:23&version=DLNT

Do you think Jesus said he would not enter the kingdom of heaven, even though he didn’t follow Jesus?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

You haven't explained WHY Jesus didnt ask the rich man to BELIEVE in Him ( Christ) to be saved? He was asking several other Jews to do it

 

[FreeGrace]

And this is where we disagree. Faith is always the fruit of being regenerated by Gods grace upon hearing the gospel of Christ.

Apparently Eph 2:5 and 8 weren't even looked at. So I'll quote them for your edification:
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

First note that the first phrase in v.5, "made us alive with Christ" is being equated with the last phrase in v.5, "you have been saved". The words following the dash clarifies what Paul meant by being "made alive". And being made alive refers to regeneration. Therefore, being regenerated is being equated with having been saved.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Now, in v.8, we see that we have been saved through faith.

So, it is obvious that salvation FOLLOWS faith. Certainly doesn't precede faith, or the words "through faith" are meaningless.

Therefore, to be saved is to be regenerated, and BOTH follow faith.

It is why salvation is all of grace, and that not of yourselves.

That is correct.

And you know what I mean by man centered.

No, I don't.

[QUOTE[ Arminian soteriology is man centered. There’s no grace in man centered soteriology.[/QUOTE]
OK. And I agree FULLY.

There’s no gospel in man centered soteriology.

Well, as Paul said, it's "another gospel". Gal 1:6

There is no Christ in man centered soteriology.

Right. Which explains all the emphasis on what man does following faith in Christ.

It is why Paul said what he said in Galatians. Man centered soteriology starts with man and ends with man. It’s foundation and assurance is his works, not Christ’s. This is what happens when there’s no faith. Romans 4:16. Those who seek to be justified by the law are void of faith. For one to truly come to Christ and rest in His merits alone for salvation, will deny himself and surrender and seek the mercy of Christ for deliverance from his sin.. and this is a sovereign act of God that was purposed before the foundation of the world

I agree with this.

 

[chessman]

I will just bow out and turn the thread over to you.

It was his to moderate all along.

Are you going to answer

What makes you think this [John 3:36] is referring to the born again person?

Wouldn’t the fact that God’s wrath remains on these persons indicate, ... well, that God’s wrath remains upon them?
Do you think the Texts says God’s wrath returns upon these persons?

 

[chessman]

You haven't explained WHY Jesus didnt ask the rich man to BELIEVE in Him ( Christ) to be saved?

Jesus hadn’t risen from the dead yet.
Nor had the Holy Spirit been poured out so that people could be born from above (born again) by believing in the Gospel .

Now answer this

Do you think Jesus said he would not enter the kingdom of heaven, even though he didn’t follow Jesus?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Jesus hadn’t risen from the dead yet.
Nor had the Holy Spirit been poured out so that people could be born from above (born again) by believing in the Gospel.

if that's the case why was teaching the landmark verse of new testament
John 14:6 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
remember chess man brother Christ was NOT resurrected nor had the Holy Spirit been poured out when he said / taught the above. So why didn't he say that to the Rich man?
My question made a smart back didn't it
Let me provide the answer the easy believism heresy gets smashed by Christ NOT letting the Rich man getting away by thinking just by believing he would be saved. Else definitely the Lord would have. The Lord sought the rich man to be:
1) obey the commands
2) to sacrifice ( give away) his wealth----- which would likely hinder his following)
3) FOLLOW HIM.
friends, we can learn lots from the Rich man and the Lord story/ episode. Having been dernched and peppered by the easy beleivism doctrine they failed toi ask the questions now these teachers will have to answer me and millions of other slike me,
According to the message i get ( and John MacArthur and several other people and pastors -- that not just MERE confession of faith will save anyone, Oukere things are required to---- Jesus nicely explains that in His great commission Matthew 28: 18-20

 

[stovebolts]

All,
Please read the Theology Forum Rules
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...d-before-posting-in-the-theology-forum.70372/

I am seeing many violations. I understand that you all are having a very passionate conversation, but if the violations continue, and you all can't start playing nice, warning points will be issued.

If I have to lock this thread and comb through it for every violation from this post forward, and any new OSAS threads, I will award points for every violation I see. 3 points, and your account will be suspended for 30 days. 6 points and youll get 90 days. 9 points and you will be banned from the site.

I understand your passion for this topic, but we have to keep with the fruits of the spirit which keep us united in Christ, even in our differences.