How the Law and the Commandments Promotes Sin

[Tempo]

The problem is Christians don't understand the difference between katalyō and katargeō. Jesus said he did not come to katalyō (destroy) the law and the prophets, but to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17).

>>>I think if you kept reading verse 18-19, you'll know 17 didn't mean abolish or idling.


18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…

BTW, GOD also said: His Laws and commandments are "everlasting and forever."

 

[jaybo]

>>>Like never exist. what's the deference between abolished and not applicable?

>>>Jesus accomplished and finished his mission way before he was arrested and crucified. (John 17:4)


>>>Isn't "no longer" is the same as: abolished"? With my very bad English, I'll say YES.


>>>For God sakes, please quote GOD or his Son only once where is the law abolished or no longer applicable to you.

I just did.

 

[jaybo]

>>>How about what GOD, His prophets and His Son whom unmistakably and clearly, command over and over again the complete opposite??

I wrote that Christians are no longer under the law. We are "alive to God" in Christ Jesus. And you say that it's the complete opposite? Are you that confused?

 

[jaybo]

>>>I think if you kept reading verse 18-19, you'll know 17 didn't mean abolish or idling.


18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…

BTW, GOD also said: His Laws and commandments are "everlasting and forever."

You need to progress beyond the Gospels, which quote Jesus speaking to the Jews. Everything has been accomplished by Jesus' sacrifice.

If anyone is a Christian s/he is no longer under the law. Basic Chrisitanity. If you disagree, then tell me why Jesus died!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

>>>I think if you kept reading verse 18-19, you'll know 17 didn't mean abolish or idling.


18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…

I think you're missing the point.

What Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 is true, and so is what Paul said in Ephesians 2:15. They are not contradictory, nor, did Paul override what Jesus said.

Jesus is talking about the law in regard to the meaning of the word katalyō, while Paul is talking about the law in regard to the meaning of the word katargeō. BOTH are true. But since most Christians think Jesus and Paul were referring to the same matter about the law, one argues against Jesus using what Paul said, and another argues against Paul using what Jesus said. It's not right to do that. They are BOTH right because they are referring to two different truths about the law. So one can not refute Ephesians 2:15 with Matthew 5:17, and vice versa. But that is what is happening in this thread, and what has happened in every other thread about the law before this one.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

BTW, GOD also said: His Laws and commandments are "everlasting and forever."

Yes, Jesus is the permanent and everlasting one time for all time 'keeping' of the festival and sabbath cycle, and so those requirements of law are everlasting and forever. Those are fulfilled to God's complete and total satisfaction through the Ministry and Sacrifice of High Priest Jesus. Not cast down and broken by what Christ did as some Christians think.

Jesus' fulfillment of those lawful requirements is why God's people don't have to keep the literal festival and sabbath cycle anymore. They can if they want to (just not for the purpose of justification), but they don't have to. God's lawful requirements for blood sacrifice and sabbath rest are already completely and perfectly fulfilled before God for the believer by High Priest Jesus and His Sacrifice. So there is no further need to try to fulfill through the old way of the Mosaic law a fulfillment that is already done for us through Christ. And so the Mosaic law with it's various requirements and restrictions of worship has been rendered no longer needed and obsolete and 'laid aside' as a result. Not broken, not destroyed, not trampled underfoot. Simply not needed anymore.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I wrote that Christians are no longer under the law. We are "alive to God" in Christ Jesus. And you say that it's the complete opposite? Are you that confused?

Your 'under the law' means something different than what his 'under the law' means.
That's why you will both continue to argue endlessly.

As New Covenant believers I think you and I agree that we are not under the condemnation and authority and guidance of the law, but uphold it's requirements, nonetheless, through the new way of faith in Christ. That's what not being 'under the law' means to us.

I think his 'under the law' means we are still bound to the literal letter of the law of Moses. We agree with that, but just not in regard to the literal letter of the law. He is under the law in that regard. While we uphold the law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

>>>For God sakes, please quote GOD or his Son only once where is the law abolished or no longer applicable to you.

In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus said between now and when heaven and earth disappear not a jot or a tittle will disappear from the law until everything is accomplished. So, for even a jot or tittle to disappear from the law the “everything is accomplished” has to happen.

That’s the place in scripture where the Son says when the law can be abolished in regard to as little as a jot or tittle - when “everything is accomplished”. That accomplishment has occurred. How do we know that? By the simple fact that the jots and tittles of the law regarding blood sacrifice for atonement have effectively disappeared from the law. They have been abolished (not destroyed), rendered useless and obsolete by the Ministry and Sacrifice of Jesus. He is the “everything is accomplished“ that had to occur before even so little as a jot or a tittle could disappear from the law.

17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Matthew 5:17-18

 

[theWind]

Just thought about a little question:
Isn't Jesus the one who give Moses 613 commandments?
We know God, doesn't change his mind.
So, who abolished the commandments of Jesus?

Jesus did create, and give, them.

But Jesus (God) only spoke the 10 Commandments out loud directly to Israel, and all those who accompanied them. Exod. 20:1

"... Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven."
Exod. 20:22

"The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up ... He shined forth ... and He came with ten thousands of His saints (angels): from His right hand went a fiery Law for them."
Deut. 33:2

The rest of the Mosaic Laws were dictated to the people by Moses.
Exod. 20:18-22
Exod. 21:1

The 10 Commandments are the only Law that Christians need concern themselves with today. The rest of the judgments and Ordinances passed away at the Cross, just as Hebrews and Colossians and Ephesians, etc., tell us.

The 10 Commandments are all that matter now:
"Know therefore that the Lord thy God, He is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His Commandments to a thousand generations; ..."
Deut. 7:9

"And the Lord said unto Moses, write thou these words: for after the tenor (voiced aloud) of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; ... And he wrote upon the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."
Exod. 34:27-28

All God's promises are conditional upon obedience to His Commandments.
"The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto Himself, ... IF thou shalt keep the Commandments of the Lord thy God, and walk in His ways. And all the people of the earth shall see that thou are called by the Name of the Lord; ..."
Deut. 28:9-10

It's interesting that you point out that Jesus wrote these Commandments Himself because He not only wrote the first set of Commandments with His own finger, before Moses broke them, but He also wrote on the wall with His finger in Daniel 5:5, when the evil king desecrated the vessels of the Temple, as well as writing in the sand in John 8:6 & 8 when the adulterous woman was brought to Him to be stoned.

 

[theWind]

I wrote that Christians are no longer under the law.

Under the Law means living contrary to the Commandments.

It doesn't mean needing to keep them. All Christians need to keep God's Law. That's why God made it, that's why Christ kept it, that's why Christ taught it, that's why the earliest Christians kept it.

If the 10 Commandments were to be abolished, Christ would have demonstrated that we need not keep them anymore by His own foregoing of them. That is not what He did, is it?

There is plenty of Scripture that makes plain that the 10 Commandments are still in effect for righteous Christians. In fact, it is exactly how God separates us from the rest of the world, and rest of the religions.

God tells us to be perfect. How does He expect us to do that? By keeping the very Commandments that He has made plain. It is absolute nonsense that Christians cannot keep the Commandments. The Holy Spirit motivates, and enables, us to do so.

Anyone who wishes to make the case that the 10 Commandments cannot be kept, please list exactly which ones are impossible to keep. Not one person, in over a decade of putting forth that challenge, has ever attempted to make that case. I welcome the discussion.

 

[Robert Pate]

Under the Law means living contrary to the Commandments.

It doesn't mean needing to keep them. All Christians need to keep God's Law. That's why God made it, that's why Christ kept it, that's why Christ taught it, that's why the earliest Christians kept it.

If the 10 Commandments were to be abolished, Christ would have demonstrated that we need not keep them anymore by His own foregoing of them. That is not what He did, is it?

There is plenty of Scripture that makes plain that the 10 Commandments are still in effect for righteous Christians. In fact, it is exactly how God separates us from the rest of the world, and rest of the religions.

God tells us to be perfect. How does He expect us to do that? By keeping the very Commandments that He has made plain. It is absolute nonsense that Christians cannot keep the Commandments. The Holy Spirit motivates, and enables, us to do so.

Anyone who wishes to make the case that the 10 Commandments cannot be kept, please list exactly which ones are impossible to keep. Not one person, in over a decade of putting forth that challenge, has ever attempted to make that case. I welcome the discussion.

You don't understand that the law and the commandments are spiritual, Matthew 5:28. The law searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. This means that all of your thoughts would have to be without sin. No lusting, no anger, no bad thoughts. You were born after Adam and are a sinner, 1 John 1:8. Your Adamic body has not been redeemed yet, Romans 8:23. You don't need law, you need a savior.

 

[theWind]

You don't understand that the law and the commandments are spiritual, Matthew 5:28.

Correct.
So are the children of God.
Gal. 3:26
As God is a spirit.
John 4:24
So must His children be spiritual and worship Him in spirit and Truth - and not be worldly or take after any of the things of the fallen world.

And the Law that was placed on the outside of the Ark, the sacrificial Law of Ordinances, was carnal, fleshly, worldly. (not spiritual)
Deut. 31:26
Heb. 7:16

And that (worldly) Law was done away with at the Cross.
Heb. 9:10
Eph. 2:15
Col. 2:14

The law searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.

Correct. It is our mirror to detect sin in our lives.

This means that all of your thoughts would have to be without sin.

False. We are a work in progress. The Holy Spirit is ever-sanctifying us to God by purifying us in our thoughts, words and deeds by making us aware of our incongruities with His Law and His son.

James 3:2 makes this clear. We are constantly working toward our example of Christ's perfection and Christ even tells us to strive to be perfect.
Matt. 5:48

No lusting, no anger, no bad thoughts. You were born after Adam and are a sinner, 1 John 1:8. Your Adamic body has not been redeemed yet, Romans 8:23. You don't need law, you need a savior.

Christ is our Savior and His life was an example to us of how to live righteously and it emphasized obedience to God's Law, the 10 Commandments.

Christ taught them,
Matt. 23:1-3
-obeyed them,
John 15:10
-and expected us to do the same as Christians = Followers of Christ.
Luke 23:54-56
Acts 21:24

The 10 Commandments will never be done away with as they are written in Stone - and Christ IS that STONE.

He is The Rock of AGES and will likewise never die.

 

[Robert Pate]

Correct.
So are the children of God.
Gal. 3:26
As God is a spirit.
John 4:24
So must His children be spiritual and worship Him in spirit and Truth - and not be worldly or take after any of the things of the fallen world.

And the Law that was placed on the outside of the Ark, the sacrificial Law of Ordinances, was carnal, fleshly, worldly. (not spiritual)
Deut. 31:26
Heb. 7:16

And that (worldly) Law was done away with at the Cross.
Heb. 9:10
Eph. 2:15
Col. 2:14


Correct. It is our mirror to detect sin in our lives.

False. We are a work in progress. The Holy Spirit is ever-sanctifying us to God by purifying us in our thoughts, words and deeds by making us aware of our incongruities with His Law and His son.

James 3:2 makes this clear. We are constantly working toward our example of Christ's perfection and Christ even tells us to strive to be perfect.
Matt. 5:48

Christ is our Savior and His life was an example to us of how to live righteously and it emphasized obedience to God's Law, the 10 Commandments.

Christ taught them,
Matt. 23:1-3
-obeyed them,
John 15:10
-and expected us to do the same as Christians = Followers of Christ.
Luke 23:54-56
Acts 21:24

The 10 Commandments will never be done away with as they are written in Stone - and Christ IS that STONE.

He is The Rock of AGES and will likewise never die.

To be under the law or subject to the law is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10. Worse yet the law works God's wrath, Romans 4:15. We are called to be dead to the law and alive to Christ, Romans 7:4. The reason that we should be dead to the law is because, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those that believe." Romans 10:4. No laws, no rules, no religion because, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. Not like law keeping Pharisees.

Jesus fulfilled the law, Matthew 5:18 and then he abolished it by nailing it to his cross, Colossians 2:14. God now sees his people as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. Fully justified, fully sanctified and fully redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. All that believe this Gospel have ceased from their own works and have entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

 

[jaybo]

To be under the law or subject to the law is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10. Worse yet the law works God's wrath, Romans 4:15. We are called to be dead to the law and alive to Christ, Romans 7:4. The reason that we should be dead to the law is because, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those that believe." Romans 10:4. No laws, no rules, no religion because, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. Not like law keeping Pharisees.

Jesus fulfilled the law, Matthew 5:18 and then he abolished it by nailing it to his cross, Colossians 2:14. God now sees his people as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. Fully justified, fully sanctified and fully redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. All that believe this Gospel have ceased from their own works and have entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

Great post!

 

[theWind]

To be under the law or subject to the law is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10. Worse yet the law works God's wrath, Romans 4:15. We are called to be dead to the law and alive to Christ, Romans 7:4. The reason that we should be dead to the law is because, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those that believe." Romans 10:4. No laws, no rules, no religion because, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. Not like law keeping Pharisees.

Jesus fulfilled the law, Matthew 5:18 and then he abolished it by nailing it to his cross, Colossians 2:14. God now sees his people as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. Fully justified, fully sanctified and fully redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. All that believe this Gospel have ceased from their own works and have entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

Do you believe that God will send Christians to hell who obey His 10 Commandments?

 

[Robert Pate]

Do you believe that God will send Christians to hell who obey His 10 Commandments?

In the judgment we will either be found in Christ or under the law. If you are found to be under the law, you will be condemned. If you are found to be in Christ, you will be saved, Romans 8:1.

The law and the commandments are the nature and the character of God. To keep the law and the commandments you would have to be Jesus Christ or God. If you are not either one, then you can only be one other thing. A sinner. Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:10-23.

Trying to please God by keeping the law and the commandments means that you are under the law. It did not work for the Pharisees, and it is not going to work for you. This is why Paul said, "Therefore by the deeds of the law (what you do) no flesh will be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

Righteousness has never been by the law and the commandments, Under the New Covenant righteousness is by faith. "But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5. Faith in Christ and his Gospel counts for righteousness. Not works or obedience to the law and the commandments.

Everything changed under the New Covenant. When God tore the veil that covered the "Holy of Holies" from the top, Matthew 27:51, to the bottom everything changed. Are you going to be an Old Covenant Pharisee or a New Covenant Christian?

 

[Tempo]

In the judgment we will either be found in Christ or under the law. If you are found to be under the law, you will be condemned. If you are found to be in Christ, you will be saved, Romans 8:1.

>>>GOD who made us sent us a manual how to live our lives, you claim HE will punish us if we fellow the manual? It doesn't make any sense to me.
So, you got sick, you visit your doctor who prescribe some medication to you, someone who knows nothing about medicine (never been in medicine school) tells you if you take this medicine you will die. Do you believe him, or you believe the doctor?

The law and the commandments are the nature and the character of God. To keep the law and the commandments you would have to be Jesus Christ or God.

>>>GOD made the commandments for himself so HE can obey his own commandments??
How Loving God will ask you to do things you are unable to do or will harm you???

If you are not either one, then you can only be one other thing.
A sinner.

>>>And GOD gave you the medicine to defeat the sin, Repentance. Make U turn and go back to him and his manual. Sinner who repents better than the righteous who never sin.

Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:10-23.

>>>I think Paul miss the point.
God never said such things, only the fools think this way. (Psalm 53:1-3 and Psalm 14:1-3)

Trying to please God by keeping the law and the commandments means that you are under the law. It did not work for the Pharisees, and it is not going to work for you

>>>What the scribes and pharisees taught, Mexican constitutions? of course not, but the commandments.
If they were wrong, then why Jesus command you to listen to them and do whatever they ask you to do? (Matthew 23-2-3)

. This is why Paul said, "Therefore by the deeds of the law (what you do) no flesh will be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

>>>Again, I tell you Jesus said east, you said but Paul said west, I tell you Jesus said white, you said but Paul said black!!!!

Righteousness has never been by the law and the commandments, Under the New Covenant righteousness is by faith. "But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5. Faith in Christ and his Gospel counts for righteousness. Not works or obedience to the law and the commandments.

>>>OK, Let's leave the Creator commandments aside. How about Jesus commandments, should we fellow it or not? What if we don't fellow his commandments, are we going to be punished??
Let's turn to Jesus and see how much you love him:
Jesus said in: Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Should we fellow his command and avoid the hell fire, or not?

 

[jaybo]

>>>GOD who made us sent us a manual how to live our lives, you claim HE will punish us if we fellow the manual? It doesn't make any sense to me.
So, you got sick, you visit your doctor who prescribe some medication to you, someone who knows nothing about medicine (never been in medicine school) tells you if you take this medicine you will die. Do you believe him, or you believe the doctor?

>>>GOD made the commandments for himself so HE can obey his own commandments??
How Loving God will ask you to do things you are unable to do or will harm you???

>>>And GOD gave you the medicine to defeat the sin, Repentance. Make U turn and go back to him and his manual. Sinner who repents better than the righteous who never sin.


>>>I think Paul miss the point.
God never said such things, only the fools think this way. (Psalm 53:1-3 and Psalm 14:1-3)


>>>What the scribes and pharisees taught, Mexican constitutions? of course not, but the commandments.
If they were wrong, then why Jesus command you to listen to them and do whatever they ask you to do? (Matthew 23-2-3)


>>>Again, I tell you Jesus said east, you said but Paul said west, I tell you Jesus said white, you said but Paul said black!!!!


>>>OK, Let's leave the Creator commandments aside. How about Jesus commandments, should we fellow it or not? What if we don't fellow his commandments, are we going to be punished??
Let's turn to Jesus and see how much you love him:
Jesus said in: Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Should we fellow his command and avoid the hell fire, or not?

What Robert Pate wrote is correct ; what you wrote is not. Read the Bible, paying attention to context.

 

[Tempo]

What Robert Pate wrote is correct ; what you wrote is not. Read the Bible, paying attention to context.

>>>My respond supported by GOD and Jesus words only.
Your respond:" But Paul said the opposite."
I'll stick with GOD and Jesus only.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
His commandments, not someone else. Very clear.

 

[Robert Pate]

>>>My respond supported by GOD and Jesus words only.
Your respond:" But Paul said the opposite."
I'll stick with GOD and Jesus only.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
His commandments, not someone else. Very clear.

If you believe that Christ's chosen apostle Paul is a heretic, then you are in serious trouble.

When Jesus died on the cross God instituted the New Covenant and abolished the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant God's people no longer live by laws, rules or religion. This is why Paul wrote, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. They live by faith in Christ and his Gospel. In the Gospel Jesus has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. In the Gospel we are ALREADY complete in him, Colossians 2:10. The law has ALREADY been fulfilled. All sin has ALREADY been atoned for, so that now, "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.