Is baptismal regeneration biblical?

[Papa Zoom]

I don't accept man's commentary over scripture.


JLB

We shouldn't. And yet in the very next post #140, you offer your own personal commentary. Should we just ignore everything you say then?

 

[JLB]

We shouldn't. And yet in the very next post #140, you offer your own personal commentary. Should we just ignore everything you say then?

Here is my post number 140.

Please point out where I told people to take what I said over the scriptures.



That's your opinion, that every verse should include water baptism if it was necessary.

Never the less, Peter mentions it as well.

[Notice I quote Peter, and said "Peter mentions it as well"]

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:20-21

Like you said, you did it as a public confession.

Here is what Jesus said about that - [ Notice I said here is what Jesus said, then quoted Jesus with no commentary]

32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:32-33

We should encourage people to get water baptized.

[Then I simply stated we should encourage people to get water baptized]


I have posted my original post for all, several times now.

Here it is again.


[Here is my original post from this thread, please point out what you do not agree with.]

The only way to be regenerated is by being Baptized into the body of Christ, by the Spirit.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

This is not water baptism.


There is no such scripture that says born again of water and Spirit.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

• one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Born of water is a reference to natural birth.
Born of the Spirit is a reference to Spiritual birth; Born again


A person must be born first, in order to be born "again".

The next verse teaches us this truth -

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Born of flesh = Natural birth
Born of the Spirit = Spiritual birth.


Jesus used natural birth to illustrate Spiritual birth.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12

earthly thing = natural birth
heavenly thing = Spiritual birth




JLB

 

[Kidron]

That's your opinion, that every verse should include water baptism if it was neccesary.

JLB

Paul said that Jesus didnt send him to water baptize. (1 Corin, 1:17)
He's talking to you.
So, obviously, WATER BAPTISM is not necessary regarding being saved, according to Paul.
And as he wrote 99.8% of all church doctrine, you probably should try to listen to what he teaches instead
of only teaching what you enjoy., JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

Here is my post number 140.

Please point out where I told people to take what I said over the scriptures.

I never said you did. I said you offered your own commentary. So why do you do that?

That's your opinion, that every verse should include water baptism if it was necessary.

Never the less, Peter mentions it as well.

[Notice I quote Peter, and said "Peter mentions it as well"]

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:20-21

Like you said, you did it as a public confession.

Here is what Jesus said about that - [ Notice I said here is what Jesus said, then quoted Jesus with no commentary]

32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:32-33

We should encourage people to get water baptized.

[Then I simply stated we should encourage people to get water baptized]


I have posted my original post for all, several times now.

Here it is again.


[Here is my original post from this thread, please point out what you do not agree with.]

The only way to be regenerated is by being Baptized into the body of Christ, by the Spirit.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

This is not water baptism.


There is no such scripture that says born again of water and Spirit.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

• one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Born of water is a reference to natural birth.
Born of the Spirit is a reference to Spiritual birth; Born again


A person must be born first, in order to be born "again".

The next verse teaches us this truth -

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Born of flesh = Natural birth
Born of the Spirit = Spiritual birth.


Jesus used natural birth to illustrate Spiritual birth.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12

earthly thing = natural birth
heavenly thing = Spiritual birth




JLB

 

[JLB]

Paul said that Jesus didnt send him to water baptize. (1 Corin, 1:17)
He's talking to you.
So, obviously, WATER BAPTISM is not necessary regarding being saved, according to Paul.
And as he wrote 99.8% of all church doctrine, you probably should try to listen to what he teaches instead
of only teaching what you enjoy., JLB

So, obviously, WATER BAPTISM is not necessary regarding being saved,

10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
1 Corinthians 1:10-17

Here is what Paul said:

I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.


Paul did not say: water baptism was not necessary for salvation.


JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

That's your opinion, that every verse should include water baptism if it was neccesary.

Never the less, Peter mentions it as well.

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:20-21

Like you said, you did it as a public confession.

Here is what Jesus said about that -

32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:32-33

We should encourage people to get water baptized.


I have posted my original post for all, several times now.

Here it is again.

The only way to be regenerated is by being Baptized into the body of Christ, by the Spirit.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

This is not water baptism.


There is no such scripture that says born again of water and Spirit.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

• one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Born of water is a reference to natural birth.
Born of the Spirit is a reference to Spiritual birth; Born again


A person must be born first, in order to be born "again".

The next verse teaches us this truth -

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Born of flesh = Natural birth
Born of the Spirit = Spiritual birth.


Jesus used natural birth to illustrate Spiritual birth.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12

earthly thing = natural birth
heavenly thing = Spiritual birth




JLB

All the above in blue is commentary. If the Bible was enough on its own, why are you having to explain it? Then doesn't it become what you believe? Your interpretation?

I'm not saying you are wrong but I am saying that you are the one explaining (offering commentary) to the words of Scripture you have quoted. Quoting the Bible is a copy and paste thing. Explaining what it means is an interpretation. Calling your interpretation correct and opposing interpretations wrong means you are putting your interpretation on par with Scripture.

I believe in Eternal Security. I don't believe you do. But it's our interpretation of the words of the Bible that led us to our conclusions. If it were simple and plan, it wouldn't need you to explain it which I just showed that you do.

BTW, we all offer commentary. It can't be avoided. Just know that you do that whenever you seek to explain anything with respect to theological or doctrinal discussions.

 

[JLB]

I never said you did. I said you offered your own commentary. So why do you do that?

So we are talking about the same thing, please point out the phrase, whereby I offered commentary.

I see some places, but I also see where I just point to what Jesus said.

I try to be so careful to just point out what the scripture says, by emphasizing it by putting a bullet point with the part of the scripture that speaks to the discussion.


Example:

There is no such scripture that says born again of water and Spirit. [Agree or disagree]

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

• one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [Emphasizing by posting the scripture part]

Born of water is a reference to natural birth.
Born of the Spirit is a reference to Spiritual birth; Born again

[This would be considered commentary, but is also stated in verse 6 as it comes from the scripture itself]

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

I point to the scripture, and use the actual words of the scripture in my discussion, keeping my comments about the actual words of scripture to a minimum.


Please compare to commentary from Matthew Henry - John 1:1

Austin says (de Civitate Dei, lib. 10, cap. 29) that his friend Simplicius told him he had heard a Platonic philosopher say that these first verses of St. John’s gospel were worthy to be written in letters of gold. The learned Francis Junius, in the account he gives of his own life, tells how he was in his youth infected with loose notions in religion, and by the grace of God was wonderfully recovered by reading accidentally these verses in a bible which his father had designedly laid in his way. He says that he observed such a divinity in the argument, such an authority and majesty in the style, that his flesh trembled, and he was struck with such amazement that for a whole day he scarcely knew where he was or what he did; and thence he dates the beginning of his being religious. Let us enquire what there is in those strong lines. The evangelist here lays down the great truth he is to prove, that Jesus Christ is God, one with the Father. Observe,

I. Of whom he speaks—The Word—ho logos. This is an idiom peculiar to John’s writings. See 1 John 1:1; 5:7; Rev. 19:13. Yet some think that Christ is meant by the Word in Acts 20:32; Heb. 4:12; Luke 1:2. The Chaldee paraphrase very frequently calls the Messiah Memra—the Word of Jehovah, and speaks of many things in the Old Testament, said to be done by the Lord, as done by that Word of the Lord. Even the vulgar Jews were taught that the Word of God was the same with God. The evangelist, in the close of his discourse (John 1:18), plainly tells us why he calls Christ the Word—because he is the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, and has declared him. Word is two-fold: logos endiathetos—word conceived; and logos prophorikos—word uttered. The logos ho esoand ho exo, ratio and oratio—intelligence and utterance. 1. There is the word conceived, that is, thought, which is the first and only immediate product and conception of the soul (all the operations of which are performed by thought), and it is one with the soul. And thus the second person in the Trinity is fitly called the Word; for he is the first-begotten of the Father, that eternal essential Wisdom which the Lord possessed, as the soul does its thought, in the beginning of his way, Prov. 8:22. There is nothing we are more sure of than that we think, yet nothing we are more in the dark about than how we think; who can declare the generation of thought in the soul? Surely then the generations and births of the eternal mind may well be allowed to be great mysteries of godliness, the bottom of which we cannot fathom, while yet we adore the depth. 2. There is the word uttered, and this is speech, the chief and most natural indication of the mind. And thus Christ is the Word, for by him God has in these last days spoken to us (Heb. 1:2), and has directed us to hear him, Matt. 17:5. He has made known God’s mind to us, as a man’s word or speech makes known his thoughts, as far as he pleases, and no further. Christ is called that wonderful speaker (see notes on Dan. 8:13), the speaker of things hidden and strange. He is the Word speaking from God to us, and to God for us. John Baptist was the voice, but Christ the Word: being the Word, he is the Truth, the Amen, the faithful Witness of the mind of God.

II. What he saith of him, enough to prove beyond contradiction that he is God. He asserts,

1. His existence in the beginning: In the beginning was the Word. This bespeaks his existence, not only before his incarnation, but before all time. The beginning of time, in which all creatures were produced and brought into being, found this eternal Word in being. The world was from the beginning, but the Word was in the beginning. Eternity is usually expressed by being before the foundation of the world. The eternity of God is so described (Ps. 90:2), Before the mountains were brought forth. So Prov. 8:23. The Word had a being before the world had a beginning. He that was in the beginning never began, and therefore was ever, achronos—without beginning of time. So Nonnus.

 

[chessman]

Mark 16:19 (LEB) [[part of what scholarship refers to as the 'long ending]] Then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. ​

in Irenaeus Against Heresies Book III
(175-185 AD)

Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: "So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God; "[120]​

 

[JLB]

All the above in blue is commentary.

Yes I wrote it in blue to separate it from my original post.

Actually there is more, than what is in blue, however I am not explaining what the scripture means, but rather stating that the scripture does not contain the phrase born again.

There is no such scripture that says born again of water and Spirit. [Agree or disagree]


Please explain to me how pointing out that a scripture does not contain the words the person said, and them writing out what the scripture actual says, is commentary.

I hope you can see the difference.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Mark 16:19 (LEB) [[part of what scholarship refers to as the 'long ending]] Then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. ​

in Irenaeus Against Heresies Book III
(175-185 AD)

Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: "So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God; "[120]​

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” 19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. Mark 16:15-20



JLB

 

[ezra]

water baptism is symbolic/ external Holy Spirit baptism--is eternal /inward . i here folks bragging about being a spirit filled person. fill a bottle up till it runs over .there should be no room for any thing else. so how full are we?full of the spirit we will have the fruit of the spirit in us i took the time to show you what several commentators stated about water baptism .they all was in agreement so no water baptism does not regenerate us

 

[Papa Zoom]

So we are talking about the same thing, please point out the phrase, whereby I offered commentary.

I see some places, but I also see where I just point to what Jesus said.

I try to be so careful to just point out what the scripture says, by emphasizing it by putting a bullet point with the part of the scripture that speaks to the discussion.


Example:

There is no such scripture that says born again of water and Spirit. [Agree or disagree]

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

• one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [Emphasizing by posting the scripture part]

Born of water is a reference to natural birth.
Born of the Spirit is a reference to Spiritual birth; Born again

[This would be considered commentary, but is also stated in verse 6 as it comes from the scripture itself]

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

I point to the scripture, and use the actual words of the scripture in my discussion, keeping my comments about the actual words of scripture to a minimum.


Please compare to commentary from Matthew Henry - John 1:1

Austin says (de Civitate Dei, lib. 10, cap. 29) that his friend Simplicius told him he had heard a Platonic philosopher say that these first verses of St. John’s gospel were worthy to be written in letters of gold. The learned Francis Junius, in the account he gives of his own life, tells how he was in his youth infected with loose notions in religion, and by the grace of God was wonderfully recovered by reading accidentally these verses in a bible which his father had designedly laid in his way. He says that he observed such a divinity in the argument, such an authority and majesty in the style, that his flesh trembled, and he was struck with such amazement that for a whole day he scarcely knew where he was or what he did; and thence he dates the beginning of his being religious. Let us enquire what there is in those strong lines. The evangelist here lays down the great truth he is to prove, that Jesus Christ is God, one with the Father. Observe,

I. Of whom he speaks—The Word—ho logos. This is an idiom peculiar to John’s writings. See 1 John 1:1; 5:7; Rev. 19:13. Yet some think that Christ is meant by the Word in Acts 20:32; Heb. 4:12; Luke 1:2. The Chaldee paraphrase very frequently calls the Messiah Memra—the Word of Jehovah, and speaks of many things in the Old Testament, said to be done by the Lord, as done by that Word of the Lord. Even the vulgar Jews were taught that the Word of God was the same with God. The evangelist, in the close of his discourse (John 1:18), plainly tells us why he calls Christ the Word—because he is the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, and has declared him. Word is two-fold: logos endiathetos—word conceived; and logos prophorikos—word uttered. The logos ho esoand ho exo, ratio and oratio—intelligence and utterance. 1. There is the word conceived, that is, thought, which is the first and only immediate product and conception of the soul (all the operations of which are performed by thought), and it is one with the soul. And thus the second person in the Trinity is fitly called the Word; for he is the first-begotten of the Father, that eternal essential Wisdom which the Lord possessed, as the soul does its thought, in the beginning of his way, Prov. 8:22. There is nothing we are more sure of than that we think, yet nothing we are more in the dark about than how we think; who can declare the generation of thought in the soul? Surely then the generations and births of the eternal mind may well be allowed to be great mysteries of godliness, the bottom of which we cannot fathom, while yet we adore the depth. 2. There is the word uttered, and this is speech, the chief and most natural indication of the mind. And thus Christ is the Word, for by him God has in these last days spoken to us (Heb. 1:2), and has directed us to hear him, Matt. 17:5. He has made known God’s mind to us, as a man’s word or speech makes known his thoughts, as far as he pleases, and no further. Christ is called that wonderful speaker (see notes on Dan. 8:13), the speaker of things hidden and strange. He is the Word speaking from God to us, and to God for us. John Baptist was the voice, but Christ the Word: being the Word, he is the Truth, the Amen, the faithful Witness of the mind of God.

II. What he saith of him, enough to prove beyond contradiction that he is God. He asserts,

1. His existence in the beginning: In the beginning was the Word. This bespeaks his existence, not only before his incarnation, but before all time. The beginning of time, in which all creatures were produced and brought into being, found this eternal Word in being. The world was from the beginning, but the Word was in the beginning. Eternity is usually expressed by being before the foundation of the world. The eternity of God is so described (Ps. 90:2), Before the mountains were brought forth. So Prov. 8:23. The Word had a being before the world had a beginning. He that was in the beginning never began, and therefore was ever, achronos—without beginning of time. So Nonnus.

I already showed you all the places where you personally commented on the Scriptures. You used your words to explain what you posted.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yes I wrote it in blue to separate it from my original post.

Actually there is more, than what is in blue, however I am not explaining what the scripture means, but rather stating that the scripture does not contain the phrase born again.

There is no such scripture that says born again of water and Spirit. [Agree or disagree]


Please explain to me how pointing out that a scripture does not contain the words the person said, and them writing out what the scripture actual says, is commentary.

I hope you can see the difference.

JLB

And I pointed out that you do indeed offer your own personal commentary to the Scriptures you post. I don't understand the question above. There is no such Scripture as Born Again of Pizza either.

 

[Windsong]

1Pe 3:20b-21 (RSV) ...in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
That says that passing through water by Noah and his family corresponds to (is the archetype of) believers being baptized in water.
If you cannot see that it is because of a serious deficiency in your reading comprehension skills.

Again, your inability to comprehend what you read has led you to a totally incorrect conclusion.
Baptism, which corresponds to this,
Corresponds to what?
Answer: to passing through water.
now saves you,
Baptism saves you.
not as a removal of dirt from the body
Being immersed in water is not a bath for the purpose of washing dirt off the body.
but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience,
It is obeying God's command that we be baptized. By obeying we have a clear conscience.
through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
In baptism we are joined to Christ in His death and in His resurrection. (Ro 6:3-4)
It's really not that complicated.

My mistake. That was the wrong reference.
To my comment:"The Church has taught from it's earliest days that we are born again of water in baptism."
YOu replied:

You are basing your response on your lack of reading comprehension skills and your total ignorance of the documents of the early Church.
For example, even though I have posted this many times you consistently fail to grasp its message for you:
Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD) The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water,
and are regenerated ("Regenerated means "born again") in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean;...


And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses
to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; …… The illuminand is also washed in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Spirit, who through the prophets foretold everything about Jesus.

Again: You completely failed to grasp the meaning of the words. Peter said the exact opposite.
As Noah & family were saved through water so baptism (in water) saves us.
I didn't "insert" the word "water"; Peter was talking about passing through water.
But you were not able to understand that.

That question is irrelevant (though I'm quite sure you have no idea why) and another demonstration of your dismal lack of reading comprehension skills which is the source of your confusion.

Quite simply; you do not understand what you are reading.

Edit

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't accept man's commentary over scripture.
JLB

Which is the whole point. Everything written from Mark 16:9-20 was uninspired commentary from some obscure scribe somewhere along the line.

But maybe you know something none of the scholars who are able to date the various manuscripts know.

Care to share? Or just keep pushing your own opinion that v.9-20 were written by Mark, even though they weren't.

 

[Windsong]

The topic, 'And these signs shall follow them that believe' (Mk 16:17 KJV) in the Apologetics forum, has morphed into a discussion of baptismal regeneration.

Jim Parker at post #103 stated:

Jesus specifically DID SAY that you have to be born again (regenerated) in water AND in spirit at John 3:3-5.
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
In THAT passage, Jesus IS talking about being born again (regenerated) in water AND in the Spirit.​

Is Jim advocating a biblical position? What are your reasons for support or rejection of the need to be baptised to be saved? Remember, Mark 16:16 (ESV) states: 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned'.

Blessings in Christ,
Oz

To be fair to the realm of context I think it important to include OzSpen's remarks that preceded Jim Parker's "post #103" reply:
Post 101
↑OzSpen said
"The scriptures that speak of regeneration by water baptism [as interpreted by Jim Parker, but not so by many other commentators]
Jim Parker Replied
Not so by many MODERN REVISIONIST commentators but uniformly by those commentators from the early church whom those modern, western, revisionists choose to ignore.


John the Baptist prophesied that Jesus, the Messiah, would come. And when he arrived He would Baptize with The Spirit, and with fire.
And when Jesus did arrive He preached to the people and told them that He would soon Baptize with the Holy Spirit. Acts 1:5. "For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

The people who elected to follow Jesus at Pentecost, as was witnessed by those attendees during Jesus Baptism under John's hands in the river Jordan was an outward of the water born flesh being regenerated, renewed, redeemed, as the dove His Father sent to light upon him not only baptized the son of man with His Father's Holy Spirit, but that Holy Spirit indwelt Jesus in that moment. And from there Jesus began his ministry of teachings and miracles.
Because he was indwelt as the Son of God with His Father's Spirit.

From water we were born worldly from the water womb of our mothers. The one common place all humans share together. Birth origin. Womb.
When we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, that is the regeneration from the worldly unto the supernatural eternal spiritual domain that is our origin. The Father. And that baptism and Holy Spirit regeneration of us that takes place and makes us new creations , re-born into righteousness and out of the worldly cloak of dispair and living against God's truth, makes something the saints share together. Community in Christ's church. Which is not a building made by the hands of man but, is the body of faithful alive in Jesus Christ. Who was God. And He alive in us.

Water immersion ritual conducted before the Jewish people who followed Messiah around and hungered for his teachings was an outward sign of an inward truth. Because the Jewish people were well aware of the import and practice of the Mikveh, "gathering of waters" , and ritual cleansing. And Taharah, "ritual purity" I.E. Washed clean of sin, as pertains to the ritual act of water Baptism in Christian conversion.
When Jesus was submerged beneath the waters of the Jordan he did so to show the Jewish people the Mikveh Taharah. Because they knew him, saw him, to be a man. They identified with the ritual of water purification.

When the dove , which had meaning also in Judaism, alighted on the risen man from those waters, and God's voice spoke from the Heaven's and said that the people there gathered did hear, this is my son in whom I Am well pleased, that was too the outward sign of that inward truth. Baptism by God's Holy Spirit so that the ritually water purified individual was Baptized twice. And thus, indwelt by that Holy Spirit because now, according to that ritual of water immersion, a person is purified to receive the pure and Holy Spirit of God inside themselves.

The bible passage that says one must be born of water, John 3:5, is accomplished the moment we leave the womb.

Read the Gospel of John chapter 3. "John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized."
Jewish people were coming to participate in the Mikveh Taharah that they were familiar with. A people that slaughtered animals so that their blood would pay for the latest sins they'd committed in transgression of God's Mitzveh. John was Baptizing a people who still sacrificed life so that the blood of life could pay for their sins before God.

Why?

And if water submersion is believed to be compulsory for our eternal Salvation, does this mean that missionaries do not visit those countries where water is not plentiful? If there is no water, is there no Salvation?

 

[reba]

enough of the personal attacks

 

[reba]

Please point out where I told people to take what I said over the scriptures

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We shouldn't. And yet in the very next post #140, you offer your own personal commentary. Should we just ignore everything you say then?

Papa Zoom did not say what you stated or implied..
Get it together
Do not reply to this post in this thread

 

[ezra]

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” 19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. Mark 16:15-20



JLB

so j.b what happens to a little baby not baptized and dies? what happens to a adult not physically able to be baptized or a person gets saved before they had a chance to be baptized... was they regenerated or not ?

 

[JLB]

so j.b what happens to a little baby not baptized and dies? what happens to a adult not physically able to be baptized or a person gets saved before they had a chance to be baptized... was they regenerated or not ?

Here is my original post from this thread.

Please read it, and if you disagree with what I said, please point out what you disagree with so we can discuss.



The only way to be regenerated is by being Baptized into the body of Christ, by the Spirit.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

This is not water baptism.


There is no such scripture that says born again of water and Spirit.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5

• one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Born of water is a reference to natural birth.
Born of the Spirit is a reference to Spiritual birth; Born again


A person must be born first, in order to be born "again".

The next verse teaches us this truth -

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Born of flesh = Natural birth
Born of the Spirit = Spiritual birth.


Jesus used natural birth to illustrate Spiritual birth.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12

earthly thing = natural birth
heavenly thing = Spiritual birth




JLB