LAW

[Jethro Bodine]

Why did Jesus speak in parables and not speak plainly?

Mathew 13:10-15 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance:but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables:because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

2 Cor 3:14-16 But their minds were blinded:for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

I would say it was done with God's approval.

So, in other words, you do not know why the NT writers use a technique that you say is the sin of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, right? Correct me if I'm misunderstanding your argument.

 

[Eugene]

Is living by faith somehow not reading words of instruction and then seeking to fulfill them by the power of faith in Christ's forgiveness?

Dear Brother Jethro Bodine, can’t we more rightly agree with Paul in Rom 8:3 & Rom 8:4?

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1 Cor 6:19 We are not our own, and as such we also God’s work in progress which is ongoing (Eph 2:10), and He keeps us. (2 Tim 2:13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself, and the very God of peace has sealed us until the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Dear Brother Jethro Bodine, can’t we more rightly agree with Paul in Rom 8:3 & Rom 8:4?

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Did I say something different?: "Is living by faith somehow not reading words of instruction and then seeking to fulfill them by the power of faith in Christ's forgiveness?"

I think if there is any disagreement it is that you think walking by faith is an automatic thing that you have no control over, it just happens, while I firmly believe we have to make the conscious choice whether or not we are going to respond according to the power of faith in Christ to life's daily situations and circumstances.

1 Cor 6:19 We are not our own, and as such we also God’s work in progress which is ongoing (Eph 2:10), and He keeps us. (2 Tim 2:13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself, and the very God of peace has sealed us until the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

Reba, no explanation was provided with these scriptures, but without going into detail I think this proves what I was saying about how the church's misunderstanding of Paul' grace/works teaching has led to dangerous life and death doctrines in the church that lead people astray.

 

[JLB]

Both sides teach that JLB

The way to keep God's commandment to not lie has been the same since the garden of Eden to Today.

You literally tell the truth.


There is no other way to keep this command.

Believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose on the third day, does not change the fact that we must literally obey this commandment.


There is no new way to keep this commandment.


Now, I will say it again -


The side that teaches us that the WAY we keep God's Commandments NOW, is faith in Jesus Christ, rather than the old way which is to literally obey them.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The side that teaches us that the WAY we keep God's Commandments NOW, is faith in Jesus Christ, rather than the old way which is to literally obey them.

Reebs knows that nobody has made this argument in this thread.

 

[JLB]

Reebs knows that nobody has made this argument in this thread.

This is just one of the many post's where you make this statement -

I'm baiting. If you would just honestly answer your own argument you'd see that what passed away was the WAY of the law of Moses, not the righteousness of the law of Moses. That still gets fulfilled/ upheld/ satisfied to this very day, but in the new way of the Spirit of God and faith in Christ. This was God's promise, that the day would come when he would move us to keep his law, not discard it in favor of some other law.

The way the commandment, do not lie, was fulfilled during the days of Moses was - You told the truth.

The way the commandment gets fulfilled today is - You tell the truth.


The whole law of Moses has passed away, because it was covenant that was strictly with the natural descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob who lived in the promised land of Israel.

In addition, the law of Moses had many ordinances added such as feast days, food laws, ceremonial washings, animal sacrifices...


All of that has passed away.

Now what remains is God's commandments that Abraham obeyed, in other words the righteous requirements that were seen, or manifested or contained within the law of Moses.


We now have God's laws and commandments and precepts written upon our heart, AND ARE TO BE LITERALLY OBEYED, just the way of old as Abraham did.

When we have faith in Christ and are born again, and filled with God's Spirit, we now have the desire and power of God walk with Him and be led by His Spirit, and keep His Commandments.


JLB

 

[reba]

Sure reads like semantics to this reader....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not sure JLB ever answered this for me:

"What is it about the law of Moses that makes an eternal law of God contained in it vanish away, while that exact same law remains forever outside of the law of Moses?"

How does that work?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sure reads like semantics to this reader....

I honestly don't see the significance of his argument that when we, for example, 'do not steal', that we are upholding God's eternal law, not upholding the exact same eternal law in the law of Moses, thus making it impossible to say that we are upholding the law of Moses.

Maybe the fear is that if we let ourselves acknowledge what Paul said--that faith upholds, not nullifies, the law of Moses--it somehow means we might have to keep a literal Mosaic Sabbath.

We know from the rest of Paul's teaching that is NOT what that means.

 

[JLB]

I'm not sure JLB ever answered this for me:

"What is it about the law of Moses that makes an eternal law of God contained in it vanish away, while that exact same law remains forever outside of the law of Moses?"

How does that work?

The law of Moses makes the law of God vanish away?

Now that's a good one.


The law of God is eternal for all of Mankind, not just Israel.

The law of Moses was for Israel, until the Seed should come.

God Himself added the law until the Seed should come.

The ONLY question is: Has the Seed come?


If the Seed has come, then UNTIL has occurred.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I honestly don't see the significance of his argument that when we, for example, 'do not steal', that we are upholding God's eternal law, not upholding the exact same eternal law in the law of Moses, thus making it impossible to say that we are upholding the law of Moses.

Maybe the fear is that if we let ourselves acknowledge what Paul said--that faith upholds, not nullifies, the law of Moses--it somehow means we might have to keep a literal Mosaic Sabbath.

We know from the rest of Paul's teaching that is NOT what that means.

I guess you are now trying to teach us we have to keep the Sabbath according to the law of Moses.

Those Messianics have taught you well.


All of the law of Moses has vanished away, including the Sabbath, according to the law.

The Sabbath before the law was added was simply meant to give man a day of rest, with out all the Mosaic laws added.


That is what we have today, a simple day of rest.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I honestly don't see the significance of his argument that when we, for example, 'do not steal', that we are upholding God's eternal law, not upholding the exact same eternal law in the law of Moses, thus making it impossible to say that we are upholding the law of Moses.

Maybe the fear is that if we let ourselves acknowledge what Paul said--that faith upholds, not nullifies, the law of Moses--it somehow means we might have to keep a literal Mosaic Sabbath.

We know from the rest of Paul's teaching that is NOT what that means.

The law of Moses is a complete covenant that includes all of the ordinances administrated by the Levitical Priesthood.

You have to do ALL of the law of Moses, not part, ALL.


When you get that, then you will see why it has become obsolete and has vanished away.

It was always temporary.


JLB

 

[Eugene]

Some of us are saved at this present time by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31); now are we the sons of God (1 Jn 3:2), and we don’t need to wait to get in God’s presence to discover if we made it or not. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God (Rom 8:16): I wonder in part if this is the reason we are to be filled or receive the Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues? Unbelief is what kept me from receiving that confirmation earlier than I did.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. There’s one way we are saved and that is by grace: Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. We were even give the measure of grace (Rom 12:3), don’t think higher of yourselves than you should.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. In Christ we are led into good works God has before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10). Yeah LORD, I don’t lie, never have other than righteous anger (murder), and above all never doubt everything is working for my good. Law? Yes, I surely have kept it all! I am now ready to go sell all I have and give it to the poor, and follow You.

With all the testimony I’ve been reading it is funny that the Apostle Paul could possibly know He was indeed saved before the end in 2 Ti 4:6, For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2 Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2 Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Thank God that we read He has also received those called weak that keep days (Rom 14:1 & Rom 14:5).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Some of us are saved at this present time by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31); now are we the sons of God (1 Jn 3:2), and we don’t need to wait to get in God’s presence to discover if we made it or not. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God (Rom 8:16): I wonder in part if this is the reason we are to be filled or receive the Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues? Unbelief is what kept me from receiving that confirmation earlier than I did.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. There’s one way we are saved and that is by grace: Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. We were even give the measure of grace (Rom 12:3), don’t think higher of yourselves than you should.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. In Christ we are led into good works God has before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10). Yeah LORD, I don’t lie, never have other than righteous anger (murder), and above all never doubt everything is working for my good. Law? Yes, I surely have kept it all! I am now ready to go sell all I have and give it to the poor, and follow You.

With all the testimony I’ve been reading it is funny that the Apostle Paul could possibly know He was indeed saved before the end in 2 Ti 4:6, For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2 Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2 Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Thank God that we read He has also received those called weak that keep days (Rom 14:1 & Rom 14:5).

This OSAS/non-OSAS thing is really bothering you, isn't it.

And it's interesting that even after all the discussion about it in other threads you still don't understand the non-OSAS argument.

Perhaps Reba can see now what I meant when I said I think the common misunderstanding about Paul's grace/works teaching in the church is the foundation of so many other misguided doctrines in the church.

 

[Deborah13]

So, does this mean if I 'do not steal' according to the jurisdiction of the eternal law of God I have not satisfied the 'do not steal' in the law of Moses? I can in no way say I have satisfied the law of Moses?

Your question was how could the old covenant be obsolete without God's moral law being also obsolete?
I gave you an easy example of just how that can be.

Here's an example of where a newer covenant cannot make an older covenant obsolete.
An example from the Bible would be when Paul makes it clear the Moses' Law (covenant) could not abolish the covenant that God had made with Abraham and his One Seed. That covenant is eternal while the old covenant was for a specific time period.

And so it's easy to see that when righteous people act righteously they don't nullify the righteousness of God's laws in the law of Moses, they uphold them. The very thing Paul said.

Ok. I think we are almost to a place where we can understand each other. This is your statement,
"And so it's easy to see that when righteous people act righteously they don't nullify the righteousness of God's laws in the law of Moses, they uphold them. The very thing Paul said."

Every thing in blue I can agree with. The 'they uphold them' is where I see it differently.
When you quote that scripture you say, "the righteous requirements of the law." plural
Why is that?

Maybe you can help JLB see that.
Then why do the NT writers teach us so many others? I submit to you that it isn't that these are the only two commandments we need to know about, but the only two commandments that summarize all the others.

Yes, but how many things can you think of that one could do or not do that doesn't help or harm someone else or have the potential of harming someone else.
I'm not saying that we can just set the Word of God aside and fly by the seat of our pants. That would be just plain stupid.
As I have looked at the 613 most of them are to protect or help someone in some way. God was really teaching what His love looks like. What He is like.

Read Hebrews 4 for the part about a rest remaining. But don't misunderstand. The author is not talking about a literal Mosaic Sabbath still in effect.
And I'm guessing the ceremonial laws being made obsolete is not the part you contend with, right? But anyway, that is explained in Hebrews 8, 9, and 10.

I wrote my statement in an ambiguous way. When I said the rest remain, I didn't mean the Sabbath rest. I meant the rest of the Law of Moses besides the ceremonial law.
So what I was asking is what scripture says the it was only the ceremonial law that was made obsolete?
I see that the very same day that Moses received the tables of stone, the glory of the law began to fade away. And that the new covenant is far more glorious.

It's important to read carefully. You are obligated to do all of it if you keep the law for the purpose of trying to be justified by the law of Moses, not if you simply feel compelled by conscience that various first covenant ceremonial laws must be kept as the expected outcome of having faith in God.

I have no problem with any of this as I have stated in the past. Yes, Paul is talking about being justified by the law that is plain to see. Why else would he bring to up? That was always the problem with some of the false teachers that taught the law to be justified.
Here it is again,
Paul said," when you put yourself under the Law." So Paul was saying that if one of them was under the law they put themselves there. God did not put them there.
The law was made for the unrighteous not the righteous.

I have learn tons in forums. When we discuss the scriptures it inspires us to greater insights about the word. I have learned much from my Messianic brethren that way. They are the ones who made me see the plain words of scripture right under my nose that I couldn't see that it is not the law that was the bad guy, but we sinners.

So you are saying that you had been indoctrinated to believe the law was the bad guy. :wink
I never thought the law was bad, scary yes, bad no. I had an over active sense of the law and not enough sense of grace. Kind of like the words to the santa song, "you better watch out, you better not cry, you better not pout, I'm telling you why....."

That'll take a little work. I have not visited that topic in several years. If I remember correctly, it all started with the church separating itself from Jewish believers to avoid being persecuted with them (about 135 AD?). They used their freedom from the method and time table of first covenant worship to worship in a way that spared them the persecution the Jewish believers were enduring. By the third and fourth centuries Mosaic law keeping for any and all reasons was officially outlawed by the church.
I honestly think you will be surprised at how even they have been indoctrinated by the official stance on the law the church established long ago. Church forefathers introduced a fundamental error of understanding of Paul's law/grace teaching that affects us all.

Thanks, those dates may be enough for me to find what you are referring to. Polycarp was martyred some around 160-165, I believe. I have read that he celebrated the Passover on Passover Day. I'll see what I can find.

 

[Deborah13]

Sure reads like semantics to this reader....

Where's the LIKE button?

 

[Eugene]

This OSAS/non-OSAS thing is really bothering you, isn't it.

And it's interesting that even after all the discussion about it in other threads you still don't understand the non-OSAS argument.

Perhaps Reba can see now what I meant when I said I think the common misunderstanding about Paul's grace/works teaching in the church is the foundation of so many other misguided doctrines in the church.

I don't worry about your lack of understanding concerning God's faithfulness toward us which have believed; nothing is hard for Him. You belong to Him regardless of you due to your profession of faith, and that given to you by Him. He knew you before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). Even the trials you are led into are your training wheels as it were, and for your good; not your punishment. Your name has been written in the book of life (Php 4:3), He will not erase your name (Rev 3:5), and in no wise will you be cast out (Jn 6:37). Seems you'll just have to grin and bear it. Of course our submission to God's will for us makes the road smoother. Blessing Brother Jethro Bodine in Jesus' name, and welcome to the kingdom of God.

 

[reba]

From where did Moses' laws come?

 

[Deborah13]

This is just one of the many post's where you make this statement -
The way the commandment, do not lie, was fulfilled during the days of Moses was - You told the truth.

The way the commandment gets fulfilled today is - You tell the truth.

You are correct that is the way that God's laws are fulfill today. We literally do them.
But we don't have to do them on our own. The Lord helps us and when we miss the mark, His grace is sufficient, we have a perfect mediator. A defense attorney that always wins.

The whole law of Moses has passed away, because it was covenant that was strictly with the natural descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob who lived in the promised land of Israel.

I agree with you that the whole old covenant, including the 10 Commandments were fulfilled in/by Christ. Therefore, because it was completed, it was made obsolete.
Note: The people at Mt Sinai were not all descendents of Abraham. Some of them were of other peoples who left Egypt with them. They may have become full members of the nation through circumcision or marriage in the case of a woman.

In addition, the law of Moses had many ordinances added such as feast days, food laws, ceremonial washings, animal sacrifices...
All of that has passed away.
Now what remains is God's commandments that Abraham obeyed, in other words the righteous requirements that were seen, or manifested or contained within the law of Moses.

I notice that you do the same thing that JB does, you add and 's' to requirement making it plural.
Why is that?

We now have God's laws and commandments and precepts written upon our heart, AND ARE TO BE LITERALLY OBEYED, just the way of old as Abraham did.

Yes he obeyed God.
And God accounted him justified by Faith, not by works. Abraham just believed (had faith in) God.
Because he believed that everything that God said was true, he did everything God said to do or not do. But we also know he wasn't perfect and it takes perfection to be justified.

When we have faith in Christ and are born again, and filled with God's Spirit, we now have the desire and power of God walk with Him and be led by His Spirit, and keep His Commandments.

That is the goal, perfection.

 

[JLB]

Deborah said -

I notice that you do the same thing that JB does, you add and 's' to requirement making it plural.
Why is that?

Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? Romans 2:26

It doesn't say keep the law of Moses, but the righteous requirements of the law...

If there are righteous requirements of the law that an [uncircumcised] gentile can keep, then there is also unrighteous requirements of the law that gentiles can keep as well.

Example - sacrificing animals for their sin.

Putting to death his neighbor for picking up sticks of the Sabbath.

Here is the big one - Keeping the Passover!

And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. Exodus 12:48


This is why Messianic Judaism teaches physical circumcision, so they can keep the Passover, complete with removing physical yeast from their home, home that is in America, not Israel.



JLB