LAW

[Jethro Bodine]

However, Paul could be saying, we uphold the righteousness of the law.

I'm sure that's exactly what he's saying. Linguistically, you can see how 'righteousnesses's of the law', and 'righteousness of the law' mean the same thing.

Or he could be saying that if they, the Jews, put their faith in Christ they would not be nullifying Moses' Law but they would be upholding God's moral law.

No, because I pointed out that, grammatically, the law of Moses--the law he just said can not justify--is what does not get nullified, but upheld. IOW, in the passage it's impossible that the law that does not get nullified is a different law than what gets upheld.

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law (that can not justify) through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law (that can not justify)." (Romans 3:28,31 NASB)

It's impossible to separate 'not nullifying the law', and 'upholding the law', as if they aren't talking about the same thing. Not nullifying the law IS upholding the law.

 

[JLB]

No, the 'whole' law of Moses did not pass away. And it's okay to call what remains 'the law of Moses'. Paul did.

Can't nobody tell me the law of Moses doesn't gets fulfilled in this New Covenant:

"14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
(Galatians 5:14 NASB capitals in original)

"...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Then Paul tells us to do that--fulfill the law:

11 Do this (fulfill the law), knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed."

(Romans 13:8-11 NASB parenthesis mine, capitals in original)

Fulfilling the law did not pass away. What changed is HOW we fulfill the law. God now works in his people a tender and compassionate heart by faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit through which we now fulfill his law, not cast it away.

Paul is right. It is time for the church to wake up--wake up and realize what 'disappeared' from the law of Moses, and what did not.

So the law of Moses , which was added, has become "the whole law" ?

I thought the whole law was the Torah, which included Genesis.


The law was added until...

The law and the prophets were until...

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So the law of Moses , which was added, has become "the whole law" ?

I thought the whole law was the Torah, which included Genesis.


The law was added until...

The law and the prophets were until...

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18



JLB

Did you forget how faith in Christ fulfills ALL of the law of Moses? Do we have to walk you through that chapter again?

Fulfilling the law of Moses did not pass away. HOW the people of God used to do that did.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm sure that's exactly what he's saying. Linguistically, you can see how 'righteousnesses's of the law', and 'righteousness of the law' mean the same thing.


No, because I pointed out that, grammatically, the law of Moses--the law he just said can not justify--is what does not get nullified, but upheld. IOW, in the passage it's impossible that the law that does not get nullified is a different law than what gets upheld.

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law (that can not justify) through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law (that can not justify)." (Romans 3:28,31 NASB)

It's impossible to separate 'not nullifying the law', and 'upholding the law', as if they aren't talking about the same thing. Not nullifying the law IS upholding the law.

Do you believe that Jesus IS the righteousness of the law?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you believe that Jesus IS the righteousness of the law?

The righteousness of the law is a revelation of the righteousness of God. It's a subset of all of the righteousness of God. We see the full revelation of the righteousness of God in Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

The righteousness of the law is a revelation of the righteousness of God. It's a subset of all of the righteousness of God. We see the full revelation of the righteousness of God in Christ.

I agree.

Rom 3:21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets,

 

[JLB]

Did you forget how faith in Christ fulfills ALL of the law of Moses? Do we have to walk you through that chapter again?

Fulfilling the law of Moses did not pass away. HOW the people of God used to do that did.

The law of Moses has become obsolete and has passed away.

The eternal law of God has not.

And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested...

Apart from the law.

That means not a part of the law.

I see you refuse to address the scriptures that show the law was temporary, and ended when the Seed has come.

God eternal righteous requirements that were found in the law of Moses, such as the ten commandments, are eternal.


If one jot or tittle has been removed or changed from the law then that means it has fulfilled it's purpose and has become obsolete and vanished away.


The law was added until...

The law and prophets were until...

Not one jot or tittle will pass away from the law until...


Until has come!


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law of Moses has become obsolete and has passed away.

The eternal law of God has not.

And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested...

Apart from the law.

That means not a part of the law.

I see you refuse to address the scriptures that show the law was temporary, and ended when the Seed has come.

God eternal righteous requirements that were found in the law of Moses, such as the ten commandments, are eternal.


If one jot or tittle has been removed or changed from the law then that means it has fulfilled it's purpose and has become obsolete and vanished away.


The law was added until...

The law and prophets were until...

Not one jot or tittle will pass away from the law until...


Until has come!


JLB

Yes, I know that the way of the law of Moses has passed away. I know that we now fulfill and uphold, not nullify, the law of Moses through the new way of faith in Christ and love for others. Sheesh!

I think we're done here, JLB. When you're done unplug the coffee pot and shut off the lights.

 

[JLB]

Yes, I know that the way of the law of Moses has passed away. I know that we now fulfill and uphold, not nullify, the law of Moses through the new way of faith in Christ and love for others. Sheesh!

I think we're done here, JLB. When you're done unplug the coffee pot and shut off the lights.

Not the way, but the entire law of Moses itself, which only dealt with those who were descendants of Abraham, and physically lived in the land of Israel.

Gentiles who live outside of the Land of Israel were never under the law of Moses.

Those who were under the law, were redeemed from the law.

The entire law was added until the Seed should come.

The entire law of Moses has vanished away, now that the Seed has come.

For we are not under the law, but under Grace.

The law of Moses has been fulfilled, therefore it has passed away.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, I know that the way of the law of Moses has passed away. I know that we now fulfill and uphold, not nullify, the law of Moses through the new way of faith in Christ and love for others. Sheesh!

I think we're done here, JLB. When you're done unplug the coffee pot and shut off the lights.

For the record:

I have noticed that we are in more of agreement on this subject than in the past.

There are two major points that we "seem" to still disagree on.

• The law of Moses was temporary... Added until.

• The law of Moses was for the natural children of Israel who lived in the physical land of Israel, with the exception of those who chose to dwell in the land of Israel and become physically circumcised.

What all men in every nation are obligated to obey is God's Kingdom Laws, which start with obeying His Voice.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why does God command us to fulfill a law that only the Jews had to follow? Why does faith in Christ uphold, not nullify, for both Jew and gentile a law that only the Jews had to follow? Your doctrine just doesn't add up. Stop concocting man made doctrines that try to reconcile a disconnect that man himself made. Just have the courage to read and accept the plain words of the Bible.

You and I are commanded to fulfill the law of Moses. Keep reading and digging in the Bible to understand HOW we do that in this New Covenant. It's all about the HOW, not the WHAT. The people of God to this day are to uphold and fulfill the law of Moses. What 'disappeared' is the old WAY of how the people of God have to do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What all men in every nation are obligated to obey is God's Kingdom Laws, which start with obeying His Voice.

Why is this 'voice of God' not good enough for you?

"...love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep..." (Romans 13:10-11 NASB)

Wake up, church!

 

[JLB]

Why is this 'voice of God' not good enough for you?

"...love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep..." (Romans 13:10-11 NASB)

Wake up, church!

If it is God's love, then it is "good enough" for HIM.

If it is not, then it is self love doing whatever "seems right", and is an abomination to God.

I tried to give you an example of this!

Let's review my example so you won't be confused any longer.

God leads you to pass out tracts in front of the local crack house.

Instead you decide to stay at home and bake cookies for the Church fund raiser for the new building addition.


One of these is Love. Love that is an expression of faith, a faith that works from love.

There other is rebellion that is disguised as love.

One of these involves obeying God's Voice, the other is simply witchcraft.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Why is this 'voice of God' not good enough for you?

"...love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep..." (Romans 13:10-11 NASB)

Wake up, church!

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10


Not the works of the law, but the works of faith.

Faith always involves God leading you to do His will.

Faith always involves you obeying what God tells you, leads you, moves upon you to do.

Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Anything that is not from faith is sin.

The law is not of faith.

Wake up, Jethro!


JLB

 

[JLB]

Sorry typo.

It should read - Without faith, it is impossible to please God.


JLB

 

[chozen1956]

Good. Continuing on in the journey ... Once a person is justified, he/she should not continue breaking the very laws that resulted in their death penalty and that Messiah died to release them from. If your were an adulterer, commit adultery no more; thieves should not steal anymore; murderers should cease from murdering; idolaters should worship only the Elohim of Israel; Sabbath breakers should break it no more; liars should lie no more; the covetous should covet no more; etc. The Law/Torah is to be written on the hearts and minds of all who enter the New Covenant.

Good luck with that. Because if you break just one tiny law, you've broken them all. You should understand that from God's point of view, you no longer sin. Period. None of us do. Our flesh will sin. That's a fact. Deal with it. But we, from God's POV, can never sin. Be Free in That.

 

[jocor]

Good luck with that. Because if you break just one tiny law, you've broken them all. You should understand that from God's point of view, you no longer sin. Period. None of us do. Our flesh will sin. That's a fact. Deal with it. But we, from God's POV, can never sin. Be Free in That.

Please provide a verse or two stating we never sin from "God's POV" and that we are now separated from our flesh somehow so that our flesh sins, but we don't.

 

[JLB]

Good luck with that. Because if you break just one tiny law, you've broken them all. You should understand that from God's point of view, you no longer sin. Period. None of us do. Our flesh will sin. That's a fact. Deal with it. But we, from God's POV, can never sin. Be Free in That.

I appreciate your heart attitude, and we should be thankful for the price that Jesus Christ paid to give us this freedom from the dominion of sin.

Thank you for that!

Please consider what Paul taught us about this great liberty we have in Christ Jesus.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.Romans 8:6-7

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14



We should balance the whole counsel of God together with what we learn in Church.


Blessings to you.


JLB

 

[chozen1956]

You are right, but faith in Christ 'keeps' some written laws literally, while that same faith in Christ 'keeps' other written laws in a not so literal way, yet are accepted by God as being completely and totally fulfilled and satisfied anyway. Christ being the fulfillment of the literal laws of sacrifice being the premier and most easily understood example of this truth. Christ is not a literal fulfillment of the law, yet God accepts him as the fulfillment of that law anyway.

The task of us New Covenant people of God is to know which ones are fulfilled by us in a literal 'letter of the law' way, and which one's are not, but which get fulfilled by us, nonetheless.

Christ is the literal fulfillment of the law. Absolutely. It is Finished. Men who are saved, if they revert to any law, are considered falling away from grace. Galatians. And who has bewitched you? May anyone who preaches another gospe

I appreciate your heart attitude, and we should be thankful for the price that Jesus Christ paid to give us this freedom from the dominion of sin.

Thank you for that!

Please consider what Paul taught us about this great liberty we have in Christ Jesus.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.Romans 8:6-7

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14



We should balance the whole counsel of God together with what we learn in Church.


Blessings to you.


JLB

Thank you and greetings in Christ. The point is, we who are in Christ, do NOT live according to the flesh. We never have since we've been saved. It's impossible to live in the flesh. We are no longer carnal minded. The sin living in us, IS. Most of these scriptures you posted are law. They are not grace. Paul is talking to weeds in the church. Anytime you see the law, you see the Lord seeking the lost sheep. Even, and especially the lost sheep inside the church.

I know it's difficult to grasp sometimes. But one must discern the Word of God from the place of being totally forgiven. We are the righteousness of God in Christ. How much holier could we possibly be? This takes no effort on our part. It is God's choosing to fill us with the Holy Spirit as we believed in the Son of God's complete sacrifice.

Be free. No worries. His Yoke is EASY and His burden is very, very LIGHT.

 

[chozen1956]

Please provide a verse or two stating we never sin from "God's POV" and that we are now separated from our flesh somehow so that our flesh sins, but we don't.

Romans 7:17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
Col 3:3: For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
Romans 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus