LAW

[JLB]

Deborah said -

Because he believed that everything that God said was true, he did everything God said to do or not do. But we also know he wasn't perfect and it takes perfection to be justified.

Obedience is the way we are justified.

That is what "by faith" means, obedience.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't worry about your lack of understanding concerning God's faithfulness toward us which have believed; nothing is hard for Him. You belong to Him regardless of you due to your profession of faith, and that given to you by Him. He knew you before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). Even the trials you are led into are your training wheels as it were, and for your good; not your punishment. Your name has been written in the book of life (Php 4:3), He will not erase your name (Rev 3:5), and in no wise will you be cast out (Jn 6:37). Seems you'll just have to grin and bear it. Of course our submission to God's will for us makes the road smoother. Blessing Brother Jethro Bodine in Jesus' name, and welcome to the kingdom of God.

Well, it's obvious to me now. This was really just a OSAS thread in disguise.

If you want to go down this road we can. Because it is this very misunderstanding that grace somehow means we aren't to read and meditate on the word and then purposely seek to do it (that would be works ) and that good happens on it's own in us when God alone does it, that energizes OSAS .

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When you quote that scripture you say, "the righteous requirements of the law." plural
Why is that?

"26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? " (Romans 2:26 NASB)

(Notice how circumcision is not included in the requirements of the law)

I have to run, but let's talk about this.

 

[Eugene]

Well, it's obvious to me now. This was really just a OSAS thread in disguise.

If you want to go down this road we can. Because it is this very misunderstanding that grace somehow means we aren't to read and meditate on the word and then purposely seek to do it (that would be works ) and that good happens on it's own in us when God alone does it, that energizes OSAS .

I do not know which part of the following statement attempted to disguise the subject in Post #1 at : http://www.christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/law.55330/ which contained this statement. Notice the emboldened words "eternal life."

"What is God’s final judgment? All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, BUT all can be justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do not know which part of the following statement attempted to disguise the subject in Post #1 at : http://www.christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/law.55330/ which contained this statement. Notice the emboldened words "eternal life."

"What is God’s final judgment? All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, BUT all can be justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Oh, that's right, 'eternal life' means there's no condition of continuing in faith attached to it. My bad.

Sorry, I didn't have my OSAS glasses on when I read that.

 

[Deborah13]

Obedience is the way we are justified.

That is what "by faith" means, obedience.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23


JLB

I understand that.....
I agree that obedience can be a work of faith. But one can obey God's law as perfectly as they are able and those works not be of faith. Key words, as they are able.
No one can obey them perfectly and that is the requirement, perfection.
So if someone doesn't have faith in Christ they can't meet that righteous requirement of the law. They need His perfect righteousness in order to make their works sufficient for justification. God only accepts the best of the best, the perfect 4.0 student. So we all need Jesus' righteousness so that all our good works of obedience can be righteous works of faith.
Abraham was in faith, he understood God was not just an all powerful God but that God was his Redeemer and was looking forward to His manifestation in the flesh, the One Seed. He also was looking forward to His kingdom coming, the promised land. Thus he was justified by grace through faith, not his own works. The works that he did through faith were the works of God, not his own.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your question was how could the old covenant be obsolete without God's moral law being also obsolete?

That's not what I was asking.

I gave you an easy example of just how that can be.

Here's an example of where a newer covenant cannot make an older covenant obsolete.
An example from the Bible would be when Paul makes it clear the Moses' Law (covenant) could not abolish the covenant that God had made with Abraham and his One Seed. That covenant is eternal while the old covenant was for a specific time period.

Laaaaaaaa! You're preaching to the choir here, sister. (And I must say, my voice is beeuuutiful!)

I know the old covenant is obsolete. The moral law within it is not. And Paul calls that moral law the law of Moses. So, we can too. I understand fully that the law of Moses as a covenant is gone. The only point I want to make is Paul says faith upholds and fulfills the law of Moses in this New Covenant. If it was wrong to call what we uphold and fulfill the law of Moses he would not have done that.

Ok. I think we are almost to a place where we can understand each other. This is your statement,
"And so it's easy to see that when righteous people act righteously they don't nullify the righteousness of God's laws in the law of Moses, they uphold them. The very thing Paul said."

Every thing in blue I can agree with. The 'they uphold them' is where I see it differently.

Why do you see it differently? He plainly said faith upholds the law. Go ahead and add it to the blue. I've been trying to demonstrate how 'upholding', and even 'fulfilling' does not mean keeping every literal letter of the law of Moses. If it did, that is what would make the law of Moses not obsolete. We'd have to keep the law of Moses to the literal letter of the law if we wanted to somehow make the law of Moses a continuing covenant. But as it is, we're talking about upholding it, not making a covenant out of it again.

I'm not saying that we can just set the Word of God aside and fly by the seat of our pants. That would be just plain stupid.

That's good. That puts you ahead of about 75% of the church.

So what I was asking is what scripture says the it was only the ceremonial law that was made obsolete?

Hebrews talks at length about how Christ is the new High priest, and how he is the new Sacrifice, and how him being those has made it no longer necessary to relate to God through the old, or first covenant ways to do that. No longer needed or necessary means obsolete. Like grandpa's '56 Chevy sitting out back. It served a purpose until something better came along to do what the old used to do making the old obsolete. Nothing wrong with driving it now and again, like our Messianic brethren do, but it's clear it is not to be relied on as the way to get to work, if you catch my drift. :wink

And we know that the moral parts of the law were not made obsolete because the NT speaks at length about keeping those.

I see that the very same day that Moses received the tables of stone, the glory of the law began to fade away. And that the new covenant is far more glorious.

Yes. I refer you back to the analogy of the '56 Chevy. Even while Chevy was busy producing that model year, and people were buying them up, they were already working on a newer and better year--the '57!. Oh yeah! (insert 'Tool Time' grunt here).

I have no problem with any of this as I have stated in the past. Yes, Paul is talking about being justified by the law that is plain to see. Why else would he bring to up? That was always the problem with some of the false teachers that taught the law to be justified.
Here it is again,
Paul said," when you put yourself under the Law." So Paul was saying that if one of them was under the law they put themselves there. God did not put them there.

And here in lies, IMO, the basic misunderstanding the church has about the law. We have been taught that simply reading the law then seeking to do it is equal to what Paul says is a damnable works gospel. It is claimed that if the Spirit doesn't just magically pick you up and do righteous work for you that you are in damnable works if you do it. But Paul makes it clear that what is damnable about the law is not trying to do it, but doing it in the hope of saying, "see God? I'm righteous." That is what is wrong about 'doing' the law.


Nice chat. Back to the salt mine...

 

[JLB]

I understand that.....
I agree that obedience can be a work of faith. But one can obey God's law as perfectly as they are able and those works not be of faith. Key words, as they are able.
No one can obey them perfectly and that is the requirement, perfection.
So if someone doesn't have faith in Christ they can't meet that righteous requirement of the law. They need His perfect righteousness in order to make their works sufficient for justification. God only accepts the best of the best, the perfect 4.0 student. So we all need Jesus' righteousness so that all our good works of obedience can be righteous works of faith.
Abraham was in faith, he understood God was not just an all powerful God but that God was his Redeemer and was looking forward to His manifestation in the flesh, the One Seed. He also was looking forward to His kingdom coming, the promised land. Thus he was justified by grace through faith, not his own works. The works that he did through faith were the works of God, not his own.

A little too much speculation for me.

 

[Deborah13]

"26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? " (Romans 2:26 NASB)

(Notice how circumcision is not included in the requirements of the law)

I have to run, but let's talk about this.

So we have two different verses one using the plural form and one using the sing. form in the same phrase. Hmm...
I look up the transliteration of both verses. Even though the KJV and YLT use a different MSS than the NASB does, in this case the Greek words and form are the same.
When Paul spoke verse 2:26, if he meant that the Gentiles were actually keeping (action) Moses' Law, I can just hear the objections coming from the Jews. After all, Moses' Law said, one MUST be physically circumcised to be one of His people, the nation of Israel.
Looking at the transliteration of G1345 it says, just-effects. For G5442 (keeping) it says, may-be-guarding. www.scripture4all.org
"may be guarding the just effects of the law."

 

[Deborah13]

I know the old covenant is obsolete. The moral law within it is not. And Paul calls that moral law the law of Moses. So, we can too. I understand fully that the law of Moses as a covenant is gone. The only point I want to make is Paul says faith upholds and fulfills the law of Moses in this New Covenant. If it was wrong to call what we uphold and fulfill the law of Moses he would not have done that.

That could be true. However, Paul could be saying, we uphold the righteousness of the law.
Or he could be saying that if they, the Jews, put their faith in Christ they would not be nullifying Moses' Law but they would be upholding God's moral law. Even Adam Clarke said this is a possibility. I looked at his commentary because he appears to be the one who studied more of the Jewishness of the scriptures than anyone else I have found, thanks to one of our members here.

I've been trying to demonstrate how 'upholding', and even 'fulfilling' does not mean keeping every literal letter of the law of Moses. If it did, that is what would make the law of Moses not obsolete. We'd have to keep the law of Moses to the literal letter of the law if we wanted to somehow make the law of Moses a continuing covenant. But as it is, we're talking about upholding it, not making a covenant out of it again.
Hebrews talks at length about how Christ is the new High priest, and how he is the new Sacrifice, and how him being those has made it no longer necessary to relate to God through the old, or first covenant ways to do that. No longer needed or necessary means obsolete. .....catch my drift. :wink

I agree. In my example of the US and state constitutions (which are covenants with the citizens who live under them), we can clearly see how a covenant can be totally made obsolete and yet the law that it is based on and is included in it, is not made obsolete because those things are in a separate covenant as well.

Yes. I refer you back to the analogy of the '56 Chevy. Even while Chevy was busy producing that model year, and people were buying them up, they were already working on a newer and better year--the '57!. Oh yeah! (insert 'Tool Time' grunt here).

Ahh...I had a 55 and then a 56 Chevy. My b-i-l had a 57 Chevy convertible. His 57 did not make my 56 obsolete, it did it's job just as well as his did. His was just prettier and cooler than mine.

And here in lies, IMO, the basic misunderstanding the church has about the law. We have been taught that simply reading the law then seeking to do it is equal to what Paul says is a damnable works gospel. It is claimed that if the Spirit doesn't just magically pick you up and do righteous work for you that you are in damnable works if you do it. But Paul makes it clear that what is damnable about the law is not trying to do it, but doing it in the hope of saying, "see God? I'm righteous." That is what is wrong about 'doing' the law.

Mercy, Jethro, mercy. You might want to consider that you are not hearing perfectly what I am saying. Just like I don't always hear perfectly what you are saying. :yes

Thanks for the opportunity to study.

 

[Deborah13]

A little too much speculation for me.

Well, I could spend the time to list all the scriptures that I see those things in but you already know them. If you don't and you were interested you would have asked. So I will leave it at that.

 

[JLB]

Well, I could spend the time to list all the scriptures that I see those things in but you already know them. If you don't and you were interested you would have asked. So I will leave it at that.

You and I agree on "requirement", rather than "requirements".

The righteous REQUIREMENT of the law is obedience to do ALL.


I am definitely with you on that point.:amen:nod

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

I know the old covenant is obsolete. The moral law within it is not.

Yes, agreed!

But why?

How can part of the law be obsolete?

I will give you a hint.

You guessed it, it's your favorite word in the bible, until.


18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

Once again, Jesus confirms that the law is temporary, and will pass away, when all is fulfilled.


The law, not part of it, not the WAY we keep it.

The Law was added, til...

The Law and the Prophets were until...

...one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till ...

THE LAW OF MOSES WAS ALWAYS TEMPORARY!

The whole Law of Moses has become obsolete and has vanished away!


JLB

 

[eddif]

From where did Moses' laws come?

Metaphysics 101
Job 38:8
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

Works for beaches.
Works to show waves (trouble) not drowning Job
Works for Jesus asleep in the storm tossed boat

Law appears:
In nature
Written in stone
Planted in hearts and minds

The ox can become a Bishop (actually he was a bishop from the beginning)

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

From where did Moses' laws come?

Sorry reba, it's really easy to miss your one liner. :neutral

The Law of Moses was given by God.

 

[reba]

Ahh...I had a 55 and then a 56 Chevy. My b-i-l had a 57 Chevy convertible. His 57 did not make my 56 obsolete, it did it's job just as well as his did. His was just prettier and cooler than mine.

nope ...

 

[JLB]

Ahh...I had a 55 and then a 56 Chevy. My b-i-l had a 57 Chevy convertible. His 57 did not make my 56 obsolete, it did it's job just as well as his did. His was just prettier and cooler than mine.

nope ...

From where did your 56 Chevy come from?


JLB

 

[reba]

Off topic :tongue

 

[Jethro Bodine]

From where did your 56 Chevy come from?

Mt. Sinai Motors.

There, back on topic.

Mercy, Jethro, mercy. You might want to consider that you are not hearing perfectly what I am saying. Just like I don't always hear perfectly what you are saying. :yes

Lol, I wasn't saying you believe that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till ...

THE LAW OF MOSES WAS ALWAYS TEMPORARY!

The whole Law of Moses has become obsolete and has vanished away!

No, the 'whole' law of Moses did not pass away. And it's okay to call what remains 'the law of Moses'. Paul did.

Can't nobody tell me the law of Moses doesn't gets fulfilled in this New Covenant:

"14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
(Galatians 5:14 NASB capitals in original)

"...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Then Paul tells us to do that--fulfill the law:

11 Do this (fulfill the law), knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed."

(Romans 13:8-11 NASB parenthesis mine, capitals in original)

Fulfilling the law did not pass away. What changed is HOW we fulfill the law. God now works in his people a tender and compassionate heart by faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit through which we now fulfill his law, not cast it away.

Paul is right. It is time for the church to wake up--wake up and realize what 'disappeared' from the law of Moses, and what did not.