The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[dadof10]

See the problem is you think that I am like you? That the Word of God is just a debating game! No I have a living faith, which is the point james is making!

That faith in a living God will produce life! If you say you have faith in Him and you do have a faith that lives? you are deceived. the law is not of faith! Why do you think that is?
Because law and religion are about men and what they can do, Faith is about Christ and the Fact that He has done all that is required is is very much alive!

I dont think a man of woman, following a set of rules as best they can, has any sign of faith or the divine life of Christ.
just dead people in dead works.

My prize is that which comes from heaven. Those who seek a pat on their religious back, already have their reward.

I don't have a problem at all. The fact is, as Scripture clearly says, Rahab was saved by works, not by faith alone. Problems arise when people interpret Scripture in light of man made doctrine, as you are doing.

I shouldn't have engaged you I'm the first place. Every post of yours has anti-Catholic references in it. Its clear you're only interested in baiting me into throwing rocks instead of honest discussion

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Mitspa]

I don't have a problem at all. The fact is, as Scripture clearly says, Rahab was saved by works, not by faith alone. Problems arise when people interpret Scripture in light of man made doctrine, as you are doing.

I shouldn't have engaged you I'm the first place. Every post of yours has anti-Catholic references in it. Its clear you're only interested in baiting me into throwing rocks instead of honest discussion

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I think I offend all who are in dead works? Works of law and religion are the same, they all come from the flesh and carnal mind of men. All religion will be and must be offended by the gospel? Because it makes everything about Christ Jesus and all men are nothing but in their best efforts are rejected by God.

 

[dadof10]

I think I offend all who are in dead works? Works of law and religion are the same, they all come from the flesh and carnal mind of men. All religion will be and must be offended by the gospel? Because it makes everything about Christ Jesus and all men are nothing but in their best efforts are rejected by God.

Offended?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again you seem to miss the point james was making?

No, I'm not missing it.

Those who claim to have faith in God must have a faith that fulfills the royal law of scripture 'love your neighbor as yourself' to expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath (you do know why, practically speaking, why that has to be true, don't you?). If you think that means 'coming back under the law' you simply do not know what it means to be 'back under the law'.

Ironically, the person who is NOT upholding the moral law of Moses by their faith is the one who is 'under the law' (Galatians 5:18-23 NIV 1984). Sin is the signature of the who is still in their sins and under the law (Romans 7:5), not the one who upholds the requirements of the law. Don't you know this? Certainly your faith is upholding the laws 'do not murder', 'do not steal', 'do not covet', right? Or have I been giving you more credit than I should?

James used the law of moses to show that when you fail to keep one part of the law, you fail at all the law! The law is a whole! Every jot and tittle! its all or nothing!

(Your indoctrination that causes you to only see the law in the narrow way the church in general understands it is showing again. )

How does what you say here mean that I don't uphold (keep, satisfy, etc.) the specific laws of Moses Paul quotes in Romans 13:8-10 when I have faith in Christ? You have a bad habit of not answering my questions. Stop ignoring my questions and start defending your doctrine against what I bring against it, okay?

Can't you see it's when you think you're making yourself righteous in God's sight by observing the law that you must keep every single letter of the law, not just part of it. You must remember, the main audience for the letters of the NT are Jews. James is making his appeal to people who know things about the law (example: 'You believe that there is one God.'--see Deuteronomy 6:4). He's using what they can understand, because they're Jews, that you can't just keep part of the requirements of God and still be considered 'law keeping', to show them that showing favoritism does not satisfy the complete requirement of the royal law of scripture 'love your neighbor as yourself'. That's no different than saying I'm a keeper of the law of love because I don't commit adultery even though I'm a murderer (James 2:11).

Thats the point and the same point is made through out all scripture! You cannot seperate the law into parts and then keep what part you like!

So, since Hebrews says I don't have to keep the Day of Atonement because I'm perfect in Christ by my faith in Christ I don't have to keep 'do not steal' either? You said it yourself, it's an either or proposition, right? I either do all of it or none of it, right?

Which all who preach the law do!

Don't you think it fair that you consider all of what I'm preaching about the law instead of sweeping it all under the umbrella of your indoctrination about the law that can only understand 'law' as meaning 'making yourself righteous in God's sight by keeping the law'? You know there really are other Biblical themes about the law besides that one, lol.

Going Christmas shopping (hey I'm a guy and it's Christmas Eve).

Be back later.

Start answering my questions!!!! Defend yourself, man!

 

[Mitspa]

You make no point to debate! The law is not of faith! The strength of sin is the law.

The ministry of death and condemnation, written and engraved on stones? The ten commandments.

So you deny all other scripture and make some point that seems unclear? I think that is the strength of your doctrine!

Out one side of your mind, you attempt to be justified by faith in Christ Jesus. Out of the other side of your mind you claim you are justified by keeping the law of moses!

So you are always in conflict with some portion of the scriptue! The points I have made are very clear and one does not need to play word games.

The law of moses can not in any way justify anyone, nor can it make a charge of sin against one who is justified by the Blood of The Lord Jesus, the Christ!

The law is a witness, and it is used as an example to show us the Love of God. Thats why james used it and Paul uses it? To point to the love of God in Christ.

Now one would have to ignore the WHOLE GOSPEL AND THE NEW TESTAMENT, to believe what doctrines you are trying to affirm.
The Royal law, is the commandment of the KING. this is My commandment THAT YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS i have loved you. This is all the law! So what are saying we need other than the love of God that is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit?

You do not and cannot lay out in any way that a believer can be justified by any commandment of the law of moses! Only in the love of the Spirit not in the letter of the law.

For written code was but a shadow of the law written upon the heart. That law is love! And love fulfills all things written.

So the reason to use the law as witness is to point to the spirit and not the letter.

I have good question? do you ever break a commandment of moses? If yes? Then how can you lay upon your brother a law that you cannot keep? You see the wisdom of God? That one who claims to keep the law, is a hypocrite! And will break the Royal law! Because you who cannot keep the law will judge others by the law! You have not kept the royal law!

The wisdom of God! makes all men liars.

For He will come and make the law honorable, because He brought love "agape"!

So then love! and stop teaching false doctrine and things you cannot affirm.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You make no point to debate!

Take each of my questions to you and answer them, and take the scriptures I post and correct any misunderstanding you are sure I have about them.

The law is not of faith!

...only when you use the law as a means to be MADE righteous in God's sight, instead of by faith in the promises as Abraham and others were. This is the error of understanding the Israelites are in even to this day.

The strength of sin is the law.

True, if you are unredeemed and still in your sins. But for those who have been forgiven and made perfect (justified) in God's sight through faith in Christ, sin no longer has dominion over them, therefore, the law no longer has authority over them to condemn them. In fact, the signifying mark of not being under the power of sin, and the authority of the law to keep me in and condemn me of sin anymore is I keep the law of Moses, namely 'do not steal', 'do not murder', 'do not bear false witness', etc.! Go figure.

The ministry of death and condemnation, written and engraved on stones? The ten commandments.

...minus the Spirit; thinking you are made righteous by keeping the law (who does that? Who ever did that besides Christ?)--that is what the ministry of death is.

So you deny all other scripture and make some point that seems unclear? I think that is the strength of your doctrine!

It's unclear to YOU. The scriptures I cut and paste say it plainly. You can't use the scriptures about the law that you do out of the context of all the other teachings about the law and think you have correct doctrine.

I'm not blasting you personally. I'm not trying to ruin your Christmas, lol. You're just one of many, many victims of the early church leaders misguided, uneducated, unspiritual teachings and mandates about the role of law in the believers life.

Out one side of your mind, you attempt to be justified by faith in Christ Jesus. Out of the other side of your mind you claim you are justified by keeping the law of moses!

Are you really not getting it?

We are MADE righteous (ONE meaning of justified) by our faith in Christ, all by itself apart from works of the law.

We are SHOWN to have that righteousness (ANOTHER meaning of 'justified') by our obedience to the moral laws found in the law of Moses.

Understand? If not, what is it you do not understand? Be specific.

The law of moses can not in any way justify anyone, nor can it make a charge of sin against one who is justified by the Blood of The Lord Jesus, the Christ!

We know this. Most of the church knows this. The church is very good at teaching this wonderful doctrine. What they don't understand is that you are to make every effort to SHOW you really have this righteousness, gained by faith apart from works, by what you do, namely keep the law 'love your neighbor as yourself' found in the law of Moses.

The law is a witness, and it is used as an example to show us the Love of God.

And you are to have that witness INSIDE OF YOU spilling out on the people you come in contact with daily. It is to be YOUR witness. That is how the law (summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself') becomes a witness to YOUR righteousness. The righteousness you got by faith in the blood of Christ, not by keeping the law...even the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

Now one would have to ignore the WHOLE GOSPEL AND THE NEW TESTAMENT, to believe what doctrines you are trying to affirm.

I think I've been proving that one has to do that to believe your doctrine. Don't be terribly surprised by this. The church in general is very ignorant of this matter of law in the life of the NEW COVENANT believer. It's not new revelation. It's been in the pages of our Bibles for hundreds of years.

The Royal law, is the commandment of the KING. this is My commandment THAT YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS i have loved you. This is all the law! So what are saying we need other than the love of God that is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit is not a new law. It is a new power to uphold the requirements of the law--not the ceremonial worship laws, but the remaining debt of law this side of Christ each of us has to 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Romans 13:8). Look at that verse...does it not say that when we love we have fulfilled (satisfied) the law? If you don't love you have NOT satisfied the law (of Moses, see context), and you are what James says is a person who confesses Christ but has a faith that can not save them.

You do not and cannot lay out in any way that a believer can be justified by any commandment of the law of moses!

I already did. Your job now is to take the evidence I provided and refute it. Start with James. He PLAINLY says we are justified by what we do. The example of 'doing' (not hearing only) that SHOWS us to be righteous that he provides is 'love your neighbor as yourself' and Deuteronomy 15:7-8 right from the law of Moses. I challenge you to prove that as untrue.

Only in the love of the Spirit not in the letter of the law.

The letter of the law is a 'way' of satisfying the requirements of the law. Paul contrasts this with the NEW way of satisfying the requirements of the law--through the power of the Spirit. Not a new law, but a new POWER, a new WAY to satisfy the lawful requirements of God (Romans 7:6). Even James says we are justified not only by faith but by works, too, and is not discounting this NEW WAY of faith, the NEW WAY of the Spirit. But that hardly means a person is going back to the OLD WAY of mere written words by keeping that law. That is ridiculous!

For written code was but a shadow of the law written upon the heart.

The ceremonial worship law is what was shadowed in the law, not the moral law. The moral law 'love your neighbor as yourself' looks exactly the same now as it did then, it's just that now in this Covenant it is impressed onto our hearts by the power--the new way--of the Holy Spirit so we can keep it.

That law is love! And love fulfills all things written.

What law is that Mitspa? Where do I find this law? In the...wait for it...Law of Moses, perhaps?

So the reason to use the law as witness is to point to the spirit and not the letter.

So, once the law of Moses witnesses to how much I'm not like what that law commands I then don't have to keep the law of Moses? Really?

I have good question? do you ever break a commandment of moses? If yes? Then how can you lay upon your brother a law that you cannot keep?
You see the wisdom of God?

So, you're saying it's wise to know that since I can't keep the law you don't have too either and I can't tell you that you have too????

That one who claims to keep the law, is a hypocrite! And will break the Royal law! Because you who cannot keep the law will judge others by the law! You have not kept the royal law!

This is only true if I'm telling you cannot be MADE righteous before God if you do not keep the law. What I'm telling you is you cannot SHOW yourself to be righteous (by faith apart from works) if you do not keep the law. See the wisdom of that difference?

The wisdom of God! makes all men liars.

What I'm saying is more wise than what you are saying.

For He will come and make the law honorable, because He brought love "agape"!

So, if I believe what you've been telling me that means he will put us back under the law, right?

So then love! and stop teaching false doctrine and things you cannot affirm.

Ears that can hear affirm the truth. Ears that can't hear don't make true doctrine false.

 

[Mitspa]

I have already told you that I reject completly your attempt to change the meaning of the word justified! It has a clear and consistant meaning throughout scripture.

I do not have time to play word games! The law has no power to make a charge of sin against one who is justified by Christ. Period!

Nor can it justifiy anyone in any way!

So then you can turn that around how ever you like? But if you are claiming as it sounds like you are? That one needs to keep the law of moses to be justified? You are teaching false doctrine! You seem very able to hide your false teachings with a mixture of truth and some other nonsense about changing the clear meaning of words! But I reject that, and it just a made up attempt to confuse and cover the weakness of your doctrines.

Now the the commandment "thou shalt not covet" produces a desire in the flesh to covet! The strength of sin is the law! The law produces a sinful desire in all men. This point is made over and over and is very clear.

For sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under law but under grace. Justified freely by His Grace is the only power over sin.

Your docttines are a mixture of law and grace. They are in conflict with clear and evident scripture.

I have learned that false teachers use the same tricks? They always cover the the false doctrine with the truth and attempt to get others to go in circles of carnal reasoning until they become frustated. Now at the end of all that which you have posted? You are claiming that a believer is justified by the law of moses. That no man is justified by any part of the law is evident! That means its clear! The point is made.

We therefore conclude that a man is justified apart from the works of the law.

Now If you would like to take ONE scirpture at a time and allow the scriptures to define what they mean, I will be glad to do that. But who can make or prove a point with someone who changes the clear meaning of scripture?

The justified state of a believer is shown throughout scripture.

He became sin that we might be made the rightoeusness of God IN HIM. IN HIM WE HAVE NO SIN!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Mitspa,

James says this:

"24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." James 2:24 NIV1984

And you are certain that 'justify' here means the exact same thing that it means in Paul's letters when he talks about being justified by faith apart from works of the law, right?

Now, question: "What works does James say we are to be justified by?" Cut and paste that part of James 1 and 2 so we can all see for ourselves what the Bible says.

Don't wait till Christmas. Answer this as soon as possible.

 

[JCitoL]

Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."


The workers reward is of debt and not grace. This means the worker is one who works to earn salvation by keeping God's law perfectly. One who keeps God's law perfectly would be sinless so his salvation would not be of grace but of debt.


The non-worker who believes is one who does not work to earn salvation. He sins and is therefore in need of grace so he believes in God Who justifes the ungodly (sinner).

In this context Paul uses Abraham to make his point.

Was Abraham a worker who tried to earn salvation by keeping God's law perfectly?


Or was Abraham a non-worker who believed; he sinned yet he believed in God Who justifies sinners as Abraham and Abraham's faith was reckoned righteous?

if the believer does not interfere (in) the Works of God, then it is faithful, but if it interferes (in) His works, then it is unfaithful

Blessings

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,

James says this:

"24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." James 2:24 NIV1984

And you are certain that 'justify' here means the exact same thing that it means in Paul's letters when he talks about being justified by faith apart from works of the law, right?

Now, question: "What works does James say we are to be justified by?" Cut and paste that part of James 1 and 2 so we can all see for ourselves what the Bible says.

Don't wait till Christmas. Answer this as soon as possible.

Yes james says that and says alot of other things that go along with that point. A living faith is the point! A dead faith is not justified before God.

But one would have to reject the clear and evident truth of the gospel to make that which James wrote of "works" of law.

Many Works are mentioned in the New Testament. Jesus spoke of His Works! And greater works by those who believe.

So if one lets the sriptures descirbe the works of a living faith? I agree 100% But the scriptures clearly and goes to great lengths to say that no man can be justified in any way by works of the law of Moses!

This is evident! No one has any reason to doubt the truth of it! And even If an Angel from heaven said different? That angel is a liar, and is cursed.

 

[Mitspa]

Perhaps faith alone without works is not a true faith, but true faith will indeed produce works and that's what it means?

Thats clearly what it means! All truth of scripture is like a string that is drawn tight by certain truths in the scriptures.

Justified freely by His Grace is complete and true! Real grace will be alive not dead.

The point of this scripture should be clear to all of us who have a living faith. It only seems to be a problem for those who think dead works have earned them something from God.

No! if any man has anything from God? He was given that which he has by grace. God will owe no man, and no man will glory before Him.

 

[JCitoL]

Perhaps faith alone without works is not a true faith, but true faith will indeed produce works and that's what it means?

yes, but if the believer destroys the Work of God, then it is not faithful

Blessings

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes james says that and says alot of other things that go along with that point. A living faith is the point! A dead faith is not justified before God.

So how does this make it okay to just ignore that James says obedience to the law of Moses is what makes faith alive and not dead?

But one would have to reject the clear and evident truth of the gospel to make that which James wrote of "works" of law.

See the problem is you have chosen to redefine the law of Moses to suit the teaching you have been erroneously indoctrinated with when what you should be doing is acknowledging that the word 'justify' has two Biblical definitions.

So if one lets the sriptures descirbe the works of a living faith? I agree 100%

Just as long as you don't call them the law of Moses, right? Even when those works really are the law of Moses?

But the scriptures clearly and goes to great lengths to say that no man can be justified in any way by works of the law of Moses!

But according to your doctrine the word 'justified' only has one meaning, and James says a man is justified by what he does and says the law of Moses is what we are to do to be justified. Explain the contradiction with Paul's teaching your belief creates.

This is evident! No one has any reason to doubt the truth of it! And even If an Angel from heaven said different? That angel is a liar, and is cursed.

Then James is cursed according to what you believe, too, then. He HAS to be if you insist that his usage of the word 'justify' means to be MADE righteous, and not SHOWN to be righteous.

 

[Mitspa]

So how does this make it okay to just ignore that James says obedience to the law of Moses is what makes faith alive and not dead?



See the problem is you have chosen to redefine the law of Moses to suit the teaching you have been erroneously indoctrinated with when what you should be doing is acknowledging that the word 'justify' has two Biblical definitions.



Just as long as you don't call them the law of Moses, right? Even when those works really are the law of Moses?



But according to your doctrine the word 'justified' only has one meaning, and James says a man is justified by what he does and says the law of Moses is what we are to do to be justified. Explain the contradiction with Paul's teaching your belief creates.



Then James is cursed according to what you believe, too, then. He HAS to be if you insist that his usage of the word 'justify' means to be MADE righteous, and not SHOWN to be righteous.

James does not point to works of law, but uses to law as an example of the Royal Law. Love, given by Christ Jesus.

You cannot say you are keeping the Royal law of love if you honor the rich man and dispise the poor. Just as one must keep every commandment of the law, for if you break one you have broken them all. So again James is using the law a a witness to Christ and the love of God.

You cannot seperate the book of James from the rest of the New Testament. And pretend like all the other epistles of Paul are not there. The Holy Spirit is very careful to descibe the Royal law. Also the Holy spirit uses RAHAB THE HARLOT to show all who are honest, that the justification of which James was writting, was not according to keeping any part of the law of moses. Its only those who are blinded by the law and god of this world, that reject ALL OTHER SCRIPTURE and try to make these verses about works of law.

Its false doctrine and another gospel. you who are justified by law have fallen from grace and are cut off from Christ.

Sorry but someone needs to tell you the truth!

 

[Mitspa]

Let me explain this again, the law of moses was a shadow or type "picture" of the Spirit that came by Christ Jesus. The Spirit was the desired object, not mans obedience, for all men are sinners and only fool themselves when they think they keep the law. THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL. the letter was but a picture of the Spirit. We see that in things like circumcision, by the letter it was a physical act of mans will and ability. By the Spirit it is the flesh and the lust of the flesh, being cut away from the new heart.

Likewise the sabbath was a picture, fulfilled when we have entered in the rest of God, by grace, and have ceased from our own works of law.

Likewise all the commanments are pictures fulfilled by the spirit! Love by the Spirit, fulfills all law!

This is the point made throughout the New Testament.

The law cannot justify in any way, nor can it make a charge of sin against one who is justified in Christ.
It is a witness to His Righteousness! and mans unrighteousness of flesh.
That is how it is used!

Just as Gods love and Spirit was before the law, they are that which was desired when God gave the law. So the law is a tool to bring us to the Spirit and love. If you have the Spirit and you have love, you need no rules but to love. If you do have these things? No wonder you do not understand that the law is written upon the heart.

So then, the Old covenant was fulfilled in Christ. All of it! every jot and tittle! We who are in Christ are in the NEW COVENANT written in His Blood. Just as the Old was about Him The new is about being IN HIM.

 

[dadof10]

Mitspa,

James says this:

"24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." James 2:24 NIV1984

And you are certain that 'justify' here means the exact same thing that it means in Paul's letters when he talks about being justified by faith apart from works of the law, right?

Of course it means the EXACT same thing. James starts the entire thought with: "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" What follows MUST refer back to salvation.

Now, question: "What works does James say we are to be justified by?" Cut and paste that part of James 1 and 2 so we can all see for ourselves what the Bible says.

You are under the false impression that the only way to reconcile Paul and James is by changing the meaning of the word "justify" to fit your bias. They can be easily reconciled by simply looking at what Paul means by the word "works" (primarily circumcision) and what James means by "works" (good deeds done in faith). One CAN'T, and never could save; one has always and still does save. This is so blatantly obvious from the context that even with a cursory reading there should be no doubt.

 

[JCitoL]

I do not get your meaning JCitol.

Even the demon and Satan have a sort of faith. The certainly believe in God. But their faith does not produce fruit. A faith in God alone is not enough for justification. A faith with works that produce fruit justifies one. Works say I have placed my trust in God and I serve him. So faith without works is dead. Works without faith is dead. One must have both faith and works. We are justified by faith. We are justified by works. But in concert together. This is clear to me now.

yes, however there might be good works and unrighteous works in the faith, but only the good works are pleasing to God, while the iniquity is not, then it might destroy the Works of God

Romans 14:20-23 "For meat(i.e. for the sake of human religion/spirituality) destroy not the work of God. All things(i.e. all things which the true God has made/created) indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence(i.e. who defiles by doing of spiritual/religious iniquity). It is good neither to eat flesh(i.e. neither to practise human(666) religion), nor to drink wine(i.e. nor to practise occultism), nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth(viz. blessed is that who does not risk doing an iniquity in the faith). And he that doubteth(i.e. and that who does an spiritual/religious iniquity) is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith(i.e. not of right faith): for whatsoever(i.e. for any spiritual/religious activity which) is not of faith(i.e. of right faith) is sin."

Blessings

 

[Mitspa]

Let me explain this again, the law of moses was a shadow or type "picture" of the Spirit that came by Christ Jesus. The Spirit was the desired object, not mans obedience, for all men are sinners and only fool themselves when they think they keep the law. THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL. the letter was but a picture of the Spirit. We see that in things like circumcision, by the letter it was a physical act of mans will and ability. By the Spirit it is the flesh and the lust of the flesh, being cut away from the new heart.

Likewise the sabbath was a picture, fulfilled when we have entered in the rest of God, by grace, and have ceased from our own works of law.

Likewise all the commanments are pictures fulfilled by the spirit! Love by the Spirit, fulfills all law!

This is the point made throughout the New Testament.

The law cannot justify in any way, nor can it make a charge of sin against one who is justified in Christ.
It is a witness to His Righteousness! and mans unrighteousness of flesh.
That is how it is used!

Just as Gods love and Spirit was before the law, they are that which was desired when God gave the law. So the law is a tool to bring us to the Spirit and love. If you have the Spirit and you have love, you need no rules but to love. If you do have these things? No wonder you do not understand that the law is written upon the heart.

So then, the Old covenant was fulfilled in Christ. All of it! every jot and tittle! We who are in Christ are in the NEW COVENANT written in His Blood. Just as the Old was about Him The new is about being IN HIM.

The "justified" condition and state of a believer is so well laid out in the epistles, that the scriptures themselves describe what justified means. Dead with Christ, raised and justified by His life. Seated with Him in the heavens. etc... These things and the justified condition of a believer are all known by the one who walks in the Spirit. They cannot be known by those who are in the flesh. The law and all those who attempt to justify themselves by the law, are held bondage to the sin, in their flesh. For the law is not of faith. The strength of sin is the law. The commandments produce an evil desire in the flesh of all who are under its yoke. The law holds one in bondage to the the flesh. Thats why it is written, one must by the law, die to the law.
Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwells within you? I think this is why some are so determined to be under law? They dont KNOW that they have the Law, written upon their hearts.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The problem you and Mitspa and so many have in the church, thanks to the misguided, misinformed early church leadership, is every time you hear 'keep the law' you can only think that means 'be made righteous by your effort of keeping the law'. Yet in a number of places, in fact right there in James, it plainly talks about keeping the law.


28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:28,31 NIV1984)


21...humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 25 ...the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does. (James 1:21-22,25 NIV1984)


"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right." (James 2: NIV1984)


12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom..." (James 2:12 NIV1984)

But, somehow, by the time we get to the part of James that people love to quote about the 'doing' of faith, suddenly 'keeping the law' is not keeping the requirements of the law. And I am told that to believe that James is saying to 'keep the law' means I'm under the law and trying to make myself righteous by doing that. Even when I show that's NOT what it means. Amazing. Simply amazing.

This indoctrination is so strong and so stubborn in the church that neither the plain words of the Bible nor a direct and pointed explanation that 'keeping the law' is NOT always and without exception equal to making yourself righteous in God's sight by doing the righteous works of the law can make the indoctrinated person see the other obvious use of the word 'justify' in scripture. It's amazing to me, but I've seen it enough in people to know the power that indoctrinations can have.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My young faith grows daily lately! Praise the Lord. :amen

Make sure your faith is of the quality that upholds the requirements of the law summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' so you can know for yourself that you have the faith that justifies all by itself apart from the works of the law and will thus be saved on the Day of Wrath.