The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course it means the EXACT same thing.

Then you have no choice but to believe that James is saying a man is MADE righteous by works of the law when he uses the word 'justified' in his teaching for that is the exact example of obedience he uses to show that the faith that is alive works.

"...do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." (LEVITICUS 19:15 NIV1984)

3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. (James 2:3-4, 8 NIV1984


And yet somehow 'keep the law' and 'deeds done in faith' can't possible mean the same thing?????? Only a stubborn indoctrination won't let a person see 'keep the law' does not always and without exception mean 'trying to make one righteous by works of the law'. If you insist it does then I've shown you plainly and clearly you have no choice but to say that James is in complete and total opposition to what Paul teaches and that a man really is made righteous by works of the law. Though you are certain that is not what you believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James starts the entire thought with: "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" What follows MUST refer back to salvation.

We know it does! The faith that secures a legal declaration of justification, all by itself apart from the merit of performing righteous works of the law (or any non-law work, outside of faith, of course), MUST be seen in the keeping of the law for it to be the faith that justifies all by itself. No works of the law means you don't have the justification that comes to a person APART from the law. This is indeed a matter of salvation. It's just that 'justified' as James uses it does not refer to being MADE righteous, but to being SHOWN to be righteous. Or else you have no choice to say that James is in direct opposition to Paul.

You are under the false impression that the only way to reconcile Paul and James is by changing the meaning of the word "justify" to fit your bias.

Who's changing the meaning? It's established fact, both in the Bible and in our secular dictionaries, that 'justified' has more than one meaning. And the context in which it is used in the Bible supports at least two of the secular meanings and verifies those definitions. But again, if you disagree with that then you have to say that the context of James directly contradicts that of Paul. It's your call. Do we acknowledge the context and different definition of 'justified' in James and reconcile the apparent contradiction between his and Paul's teaching, or do we ignore the plain words and context of James to 'keep the law' and redefine it to mean something else to reconcile the apparent contradiction between Paul and James?

They can be easily reconciled by simply looking at what Paul means by the word "works" (primarily circumcision) and what James means by "works" (good deeds done in faith). One CAN'T, and never could save; one has always and still does save. This is so blatantly obvious from the context that even with a cursory reading there should be no doubt.

Hey, I'm playing your cards. In this particular argument I am keeping Paul's definition of 'works' to just that of the law. But I've plainly shown you James is also talking about the works of the law.

'Love your neighbor as yourself', 'show no favoritism', and helping the poor (Deut. 15) are all WORKS OF THE LAW. James says we must do these to be justified. If you insist that 'justified' as he uses it means 'to MAKE yourself righteous' then you have no choice but to agree that James is directly contradicting Paul and that a man really is MADE righteous before God by doing works of the law.

If you could just find the power and the courage to overcome the indoctrination the early church saddled us with to distance us from the Jews and consider that 'justified' must be understood in the context that it is used in, and that it really does have more than one meaning, you would be able to see James is saying we SHOW ourselves to have the righteousness of God by the obedience of the law, not saying we MAKE ourselves righteous by the obedience of the (moral) law as Paul uses the word.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Its false doctrine and another gospel. you who are justified by law have fallen from grace and are cut off from Christ.

Sorry but someone needs to tell you the truth!

If your faith does not uphold, keep, and satisfy the law of Moses, 'love your neighbor as yourself' you have a faith that can not save. I didn't say it. James said it.

This in no way means a man is justified (MADE righteous) by keeping the law. But your indoctrination will force you to only see it mean that. It means if you can not show yourself as having the righteousness of God that comes by faith in Jesus, and that you possess the new nature that keeps the command to 'love your neighbor as yourself' by the power of the Holy Spirit as a result of that faith, you have a 'faith' that can not save. You are not in Christ. You are cut off from God and salvation and the kingdom.

 

[Mitspa]

The problem you and Mitspa and so many have in the church, thanks to the misguided, misinformed early church leadership, is every time you hear 'keep the law' you can only think that means 'be made righteous by your effort of keeping the law'. Yet in a number of places, in fact right there in James, it plainly talks about keeping the law.


28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:28,31 NIV1984)


21...humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 25 ...the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does. (James 1:21-22,25 NIV1984)


"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right." (James 2: NIV1984)


12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom..." (James 2:12 NIV1984)

But, somehow, by the time we get to the part of James that people love to quote about the 'doing' of faith, suddenly 'keeping the law' is not keeping the requirements of the law. And I am told that to believe that James is saying to 'keep the law' means I'm under the law and trying to make myself righteous by doing that. Even when I show that's NOT what it means. Amazing. Simply amazing.

This indoctrination is so strong and so stubborn in the church that neither the plain words of the Bible nor a direct and pointed explanation that 'keeping the law' is NOT always and without exception equal to making yourself righteous in God's sight by doing the righteous works of the law can make the indoctrinated person see the other obvious use of the word 'justify' in scripture. It's amazing to me, but I've seen it enough in people to know the power that indoctrinations can have.

Again you try to have it both ways and you seem to change scripture and meaning of well defined words as you need to promote your false doctrines.

For instance you leave out the perfect law of LIBERTY? why is that? You make every attempt to bring the yoke of law upon the believer by deception and twisting of words and scripture. One cannot seperate what The Holy Spirit wrote through James from what the HolySpirit wrote through Paul.

As a matter of fact the Holy Spirit makes all doctrine subject to that which Paul taught..

The law is not ESTABLISHED by works but by faith! for its purpose was to make all men sinners, and to bring all men to be justified by faith in Christ. That law is but a witness to Christ. For the law was about Him!

So no matter how hard you twist and turn words and scriptures. The scriptures themselves will always defeat your false doctrines.

FOR SOME WILL DESIRE TO BE TEACHERS OF THE LAW AND NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE SAYING OR TRYING TO AFFIRM.

FOR THEY BEING IGNORANT OF GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND GOING ABOUT TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN. HAVE NOT SUBMITTED TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.

Your doctrines are false and you must deceive to try to prove those false doctrines. THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS! all you who claim to keep the law are shown to be breakers of it!

 

[Mitspa]

If your faith does not uphold, keep, and satisfy the law of Moses, 'love your neighbor as yourself' you have a faith that can not save. I didn't say it. James said it.

This in no way means a man is justified (MADE righteous) by keeping the law. But your indoctrination will force you to only see it mean that. It means if you can not show yourself as having the righteousness of God that comes by faith in Jesus, and that you possess the new nature that keeps the command to 'love your neighbor as yourself' by the power of the Holy Spirit as a result of that faith, you have a 'faith' that can not save. You are not in Christ. You are cut off from God and salvation and the kingdom.

To believe this? one would have to reject all that is written by Paul and the whole report of the gospel.

So you are just wrong! The Royal Law is the commandment of Christ! The perfect law of liberty is the gospel! James does not put any under the law of moses but uses it as an example!

You see it that way, because EVEN UNTIL THIS DAY WHEN MOSES OR THE OLD TESTAMENT IS READ A VEIL LAYS UPON THEIR HEART AND MIND. for the god of this world has blinded them from seeing the glory of Christ in His Gospel.

 

[dadof10]

We know it does! The faith that secures a legal declaration of justification, all by itself apart from the merit of performing righteous works of the law (or any non-law work, outside of faith, of course),

Where does Paul, or anyone else, teach that "works" means "any non-law work", or anything done, as you said previously? Where does ANYONE in Scripture make the connection between "works" and baptism, for instance? Even more to the point, where does ANYONE connect "works" with good deeds done in faith or the lack thereof, like walking by someone in need "without giving them the things needed for the body", as in James? This is what you need to prove, which you can't because SCRIPTURE DOESN'T MAKE THE CONNECTION. This is the notion on which your entire argument hinges and is not biblical or logical.

MUST be seen in the keeping of the law for it to be the faith that justifies all by itself. No works of the law means you don't have the justification that comes to a person APART from the law.

I'm lost here. Did you mistakenly leave out a comma or did you mean that having no "works of the law" means you don't have justification? Are you trying to draw a parallel between "works of the law" and "the royal law"? They are different.

This is indeed a matter of salvation. It's just that 'justified' as James uses it does not refer to being MADE righteous, but to being SHOWN to be righteous. Or else you have no choice to say that James is in direct opposition to Paul.

Yes, IF you can prove "works" in James and Paul mean the same thing, which you can't. That is the other (and far more logical) way to reconcile the two, which is MY "choice". Why would you reject this way without any Biblical reason? It's obvious that James is talking about good deeds done in faith (part of the royal law) and Paul is talking about circumcision (part of the law of Moses). Why do you keep rejecting this common sense approach out of hand?

Who's changing the meaning? It's established fact, both in the Bible and in our secular dictionaries, that 'justified' has more than one meaning.

So does "faith" and "saved" and many other words, but I'm pretty sure that you would cry "foul" if I made the ridiculous claim that Paul means "to keep in a safe condition; safeguard" when he says "Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God". Certainly "safeguard" is a valid definition of the word, but to claim that Paul means to safeguard HERE ON EARTH from "the wrath of God", would be to damage the meaning. Obviously Paul is talking about the afterlife here, but it IS a valid definition of the word "saved", right? This is what you are doing with the word "justify" in James. He OBVIOUSLY means justify in the same EXACT sense Paul means does.

Hey, I'm playing your cards. In this particular argument I am keeping Paul's definition of 'works' to just that of the law. But I've plainly shown you James is also talking about the works of the law.

'Love your neighbor as yourself', 'show no favoritism', and helping the poor (Deut. 15) are all WORKS OF THE LAW. James says we must do these to be justified. If you insist that 'justified' as he uses it means 'to MAKE yourself righteous' then you have no choice but to agree that James is directly contradicting Paul and that a man really is MADE righteous before God by doing works of the law.

Deut. 15? Really? So, every SEVEN YEARS we are under the law of Moses when we help the poor? What about the other six? Deut. 15 deals with the year when the ground was to "rest".

"At the end of every seven years you shall grant a release. 2 And this is the manner of the release:..." God goes on to describe how the Israelite shall treat each other and foreigners during the times of possible famine, when the farmland shall remain barren during the Sabbatical Year. This can't really be your argument? You must have more evidence that Paul and other NT writers tie "helping the poor" to "works of the law" besides Deut.15?

If you could just find the power and the courage to overcome the indoctrination the early church saddled us with to distance us from the Jews and consider that 'justified' must be understood in the context that it is used in, and that it really does have more than one meaning, you would be able to see James is saying we SHOW ourselves to have the righteousness of God by the obedience of the law, not saying we MAKE ourselves righteous by the obedience of the (moral) law as Paul uses the word.

There it is again, the arrogance. I had forgotten. Please try and refrain from the "holier than thou" attitude that permeated the other thread. I am not "indoctrinated" because I have a different view than you. I am also not a coward, nor am I weak because I believe that the Catholic Church teaches Truth. Please don't go down this road.

 

[Mitspa]

That a man can be justified by no work of the law is evident!
Not just circumcision but the Whole law! Including the ministry of death and condemnation, written and engraved on stones. THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. thou shalt not covet produces a desire in the flesh of all to covet. The strength of sin, is the law. The law is not of faith. Whatever is not of faith is sin.

Is the commandment sin. NO! but it produces sinful desires in the flesh. Therefore one must reckon themselves dead to the law of moses. That means the law cannot justify nor make a charge of sin against those who have died with Christ.

The law brings men unto bondage to the sin in the flesh. The strength of sin is the law.

The perfect law of liberty is an exact contrast to the law that leads to bondage.

James makes the reasonable assumption that one understands the basic principles of the gospel?

It seems that has been lost in religion of man.

 

[Ryan]

The NT is simply the OT repackaged. I believe Jesus when he says in John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commandments." The following is a compilation of pro-Law/Torah verses. Jethro, I have noticed others are not keen to quoting direct scriptures as it would blow a hole in their arguments that are already leaking like a sieve.


1.) Is.2 [The Torah will be taught in the Millennial Kingdom]
2.) Is.8:20 [Those who are against the Torah have no light in them]
3.) Is.42:4 [The coastlands will wait for YHWH's Torah]
4.) Is.42:21 [YHWH will exalt the Torah and make it honorable]
5.) Is.51:7 [The Torah mentioned to be on people's hearts before Jer.31:33]
6.) Jer.31:33 [The Torah will be on our hearts during the Millennial Kingdom]
7.) Micah 4:2 [Nations will come to learn the Torah in the Millennial Kingdom]
8.) Zech.14:16-19 [The Feast of Tabernacles will be kept in the Millennial Kingdom (Lev.23)]
9.) Lam 2:9 [Jeremiah lamented that the Torah is no more. Why lament if it will be done away with?]
10.) Psalm 119 [David exalted the Torah]

11.) Matt.4:4-10 [Yeshua used the Torah to rebuke the adversary (Deut 8:3; 6:16; 6:13)]
12.) Matt.5:17-19 [Those who teach against Torah will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven]
13.) Matt.7:12 [The Golden Rule (Midrash on Torah)]
14.) Matt.9:20 [Yeshua wore Tzitziot (Num.15:38)]
15.) Matt.11:13 [Yeshua used the Torah & the Prophets to prove John the Baptist valid]
16.) Matt.12:5 [Yeshua interpreted the Sabbath]
17.) Matt.14:36 [Yeshua wore Tzitziot (Num.15:38)]
18.) Matt.22:36-40 [Yeshua taught the greatest commandments from the Torah USING the Torah]
19.) Matt.23:23 [Yeshua emphasized the weightier matters of the Torah USING the Torah]

20.) Mark 3:4 [Yeshua interpreted the Sabbath]
21.) Mark 6:18 [John the Baptist used Torah to rebuke Herod (Lev.20:21)]
22.) Mark 6:56 [Yeshua wore Tzitziot (Num.15:38)]
23.) Mark 10:5-12 [Yeshua taught on divorce using the creation account]

24.) Luke 2:21 [Yeshua circumcised on the eighth day (Lev.12:2-3)]
25.) Luke 2:22-39 [Yeshua was presented before YHWH as the first born (Ex.34:19)]
26.) Luke 2:24 [An offering was made for Yeshua being the first born (Lev.12:6)]
27.) Luke 4:16 [Yeshua's custom was to attend Synagogue on the Sabbath day not Sunday]
28.) Luke 6:3-9 [Yeshua is Master of the Sabbath]
29.) Luke 10:26-28 [Yeshua encouraged Torah observance by elevating the weightier commandments]
30.) Luke 10:30-37 [Yeshua gave a parable of the good Samaritan/love your neighbor]
31.) Luke 14:5 [Yeshua preserved life on the Sabbath]
32.) Luke 16:16 [Yeshua used Torah and the Prophets to prove John the Baptist is valid]
33.) Luke 16:17 [It is easier for heaven & earth to pass away than for Torah to do so]
34.) Luke 24:44 [Suffering Servant Prophecy fulfilled]

35.) John 1:17 [Through the Torah, Messiah's Grace was manifested] *
36.) John 1:45 [Phillip used the Torah & the Prophets to convince Nathaniel about Yeshua being Messiah]
37.) John 5:8 [Yeshua healed a lame man on the Sabbath]
38.) John 7:19 [Yeshua used the Torah to defend Himself]
39.) John 7:22-23 [Yeshua interpreted the Sabbath]
40.) John 7:24 [Yeshua taught to judge righteously (Lev.19:15)]
41.) John 7:49 [Yeshua said those who do not know Torah are accursed]
42.) John 7:51 [Nicodemus used the Torah to prove Yeshua innocent]
43.) John 8:5-12 [Yeshua won the challenge concerning the woman in "adultery" (Lev.20:10)]

44.) Acts 2 [The disciples celebrated Shavuot (Pentecost)]
45.) Acts 6:13 [False witnesses accused the disciples of teaching against the Torah]
46.) Acts 13:14 [Paul went to Synagogue on Sabbath]
47.) Acts 13:15 [Paul attended Synagogue on Sabbath]
48.) Acts 13:39 [Paul taught the Torah and the Prophets in Synagogue]
49.) Acts 13:42 [Gentiles wanted to hear more about Torah and Messiah next Sabbath]
50.) Acts 13:44 [Almost the whole city came the next Sabbath and wanted to learn]
51.) Acts 13:46 [Paul and Barnabas decided to teach Torah/Prophets to the Gentiles (Is.49:6)]
52.) Acts 13:48 [Gentiles were filled with gladness because they get to learn about Yeshua & Torah]
53.) Acts 13:49 [Torah and the Prophets were spread throughout all the region of Antioch]
54.) Acts 15:21 [Moses was taught in all the cities in Synagogues on the Sabbath Day]

55.) Acts 15:28-29
[New gentile converts were to keep the kosher laws of Torah before learning the rest of it]
[Foods offered to idols/eating blood/eating things strangled/sexual immorality]
[(Ex.20:3/Lev.7:26;17:12; 22:8/Deut.14:21)]

56.) Acts 16:13 [Prayer was customarily made on the Sabbath Day]
57.) Acts 17:2-4 [Paul taught Yeshua and Torah for THREE Sabbaths not three Sundays!]
58.) Acts 18:4 [Paul persuaded Jews and Greeks about Yeshua EVERY Sabbath!]
59.) Acts 18:13 [False witness accused Paul of teaching against Torah]
60.) Acts 18:18 [Paul takes a Nazirite vow and shaves his head (Num.6)]
61.) Acts 20:6 [Paul sails to Philippi AFTER Unleavened Bread. Why mention this if it̢۪s done away with?] 62.) Acts 20:7-12 [Paul kept the Sabbath and taught for Havdallah until midnight]
63.) Acts 20:16 [Paul wanted to arrive in time at Jerusalem to keep Shavuot (Ex.34:22/Lev.23:15-22)]
64.) Acts 21:20 [New converts were ZEALOUS for the Torah!]
65.) Acts 21:24 [Paul showed that he keeps the Torah]
66.) Acts 21:28 [More false accusations saying that Paul taught against the Torah]
67.) Acts 22:12 [Paul used the Torah to say Ananias was a devout man]
68.) Acts 23:3 [Paul used the Torah to defend his position]
69.) Acts 23:4 [Paul quoted the Torah (Ex.22:28)]
70.) Acts 24:14 [Paul believed all things in the Torah and the Prophets]
71.) Acts 28:23 [Paul taught people the Torah and the Prophets]

72.) Rom.2:13 [Those who do the Torah and not just hear it are considered justified]
73.) Rom.3:31 [Faith does not make void Torah]
74.) Rom.6:15 [Grace is not permission to sin]
75.) Rom.7:2 [Paul taught the laws of marriage & divorce (Deut.24)]
76.) Rom.7:7 [The Torah is not sin]
77.) Rom.7:12 [The Torah is holy, just, and good]
78.) Rom.7:26 [The Torah is good]
79.) Rom.7:22 [Paul delighted in the Torah of YHWH]
80.) Rom.13:18 [Love fulfills the Torah]
81.) Rom.13:10 [Love fulfills the Torah]

82.) 1Cor.1:18 [Paul quoted Isaiah 29:14 for his doctrine]
83.) 1Cor.1:31 [Paul quoted Jeremiah 9:24]
84.) 1Cor.2:9 [Paul quoted Isaiah 64:4]
85.) 1Cor.2:16 [Paul quoted Isaiah 40:13]
86.) 1Cor.3:19 [Paul quoted Job 5:13]
87.) 1Cor.3:20 [Paul quoted Psalm 94:11]
88.) 1Cor.5:1 [Paul used Torah to rebuke sin (Lev.20:11)
89.) 1Cor.5:6-8 [Paul encouraged believers to keep Passover (Lev.23)]
90.) 1Cor.5:9-11 [Paul taught to not be yoked with the sexually immoral (Lev.20)]
91.) 1Cor.5:12-13 [Paul quoted Deut.17:7; 19:19; 22:21; 24:7]
92.) 1Cor.6:9-10 [Paul listed immoral actions defined by Torah (Lev.20)]
93.) 1Cor.6:16 [Paul quotes Gen.2:24]
94.) 1Cor.7:10-11 [Paul taught on marriage and divorce (Deut.24)]
95.) 1Cor.7:19 [Paul taught that keeping the Torah is more important than IMMEDIATE circumcision]*
96.) 1Cor.7:39 [Paul taught the laws of marriage and re-marriage]
97.) 1Cor.9:9-12 [Paul did a midrash on Deut.25:4]
98.) 1Cor.9:21 [Paul kept YHWH's Torah when ministering to those who didn't have the Torah]
99.) 1Cor.10:1-22 [Paul did a midrash on Ex.32:6]
100.) 1Cor.10:26 [Paul quoted Psalm 24:1]
101.) 1Cor.14:21 [Paul quoted Isaiah 28:11-12]
102.) 1Cor.15:27 [Paul quoted Psalm 8:6]
103.) 1Cor.15:32 [Paul quoted Isaiah 22:13]
104.) 1Cor.15:45 [Paul quoted Gen.2:7]
105.) 1Cor.15:54 [Paul quoted Isaiah 25:8]
106.) 1Cor.15:55 [Paul quoted Hosea 13:14]

107.) 2Cor.3:12-17 [Paul did a midrash on the veil of Moses (Ex.34:33-35)]
108.) 2Cor.4:13 [Paul quoted Psalm 116:10]
109.) 2Cor.6:2 [Paul quoted Isaiah 49:8]
110.) 2Cor.6:16 [Paul quoted Lev.26:12/Jeremiah 32:38/Ezekiel 37:27]
111.) 2Cor.6:17 [Paul quoted Isaiah 52:11/Ezekiel 20:34; 41]
112.) 2Cor.6:18 [Paul quoted 2 Samuel 7:14]
113.) 2Cor.8:15 [Paul quoted Ex.16:18]
114.) 2Cor.9:9 [Paul quoted Psalm 112:9]
115.) 2Cor.10:17 [Paul quoted Jeremiah 9:24]
116.) 2Cor.13:1 [Paul quotes Deut.19:15]

117.) Gal.3:6 [Paul quoted Gen.15:6]
118.) Gal.3:8 [Paul quoted Gen.12:3; 18:18; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14]
119.) Gal.3:10 [Paul quoted Deut.27:26]
120.) Gal.3:11 [Paul quoted Habakkuk 2:4]
121.) Gal 3:12 [Paul quoted Lev.18:5]
122.) Gal.3:13 [Paul quoted Deut 11:26-28; 27:15-26]
123.) Gal.3:16 [Paul quoted Gen.12:7; 13:15; 24:7]
124.) Gal.4:27 [Paul quoted Isaiah 54:1]
125.) Gal.4:30 [Paul quoted Gen.21:10]
126.) Gal.5:14 [Paul quoted Lev.19:18]

127.) Eph.4:8 [Paul quoted Psalm 68:18]
128.) Eph.4:25 [Paul quoted Zechariah 8:16]
129.) Eph.4:26 [Paul quoted Psalm 4:4]
130.) Eph.5:31 [Paul quoted Gen.2:24]
131.) Eph.6:2 [Paul quoted Deut.5:16]

132.) Philipp.2:17 [Paul related himself to a drink offering (Lev.23:13)]

133.) 1Thess.4:2 [Paul taught to walk in the Commandments of YHWH]
134.) 1Thess.4:3 [Paul taught to avoid sexual immorality (Lev.20)]
135.) 1Thess.5:1-11 [Paul taught that those who don't know the Feast Days are in darkness/blind]

136.) 2Thess.1:8 [Paul quoted Isaiah 24:23]

137.) 1Tim.1:8 [Paul taught that the Torah is good if one uses it right]
138.) 1Tim.5:18 [Paul quoted Deut.25:4]
139.) 1Tim.5:19 [Paul taught the concept of two witnesses (Deut.19:15)]

140.) 2Tim.3:15 [Paul said Timothy had known the "Holy Scriptures" (Torah/Prophets) since his youth]

141.) 2Tim.3:16 [Paul referred to the Torah/Prophets when he said "Scripture, Doctrine, Instruction"]
142.) 2Tim.4:6 [Paul related himself as a drink offering (Lev.23:13)]

143.) Titus 2:9 [Paul taught obedience to the Torah concerning bondservants & masters (Deut.15:12-18)]
144.) Titus 2:14 [Paul taught that Yeshua died so we will have zeal for good works (Torah)]

145.) Heb.1:5 [quoted Ps.2:7/2Sam.7:14]
146.) Heb.1:6 [quoted Deut.32:43/Psalm 97:7]
147.) Heb.1:7 [quoted Ps.104:4]
148.) Heb.1:9 [quoted Ps.45:6-7]
149.) Heb.1:12 [quoted Ps.102:25-27]
150.) Heb.1:13 [quoted Ps.110:1]
151.) Heb.2:8 [quoted Ps.8:4-6]
152.) Heb.2:12 [quoted Ps.22:22]
153.) Heb.2:13 [quoted 2Sam.22:3/Isaiah 8:17-18]
154.) Heb.3:11 [quoted Ps. 5:7-11]
155.) Heb.3:15 [quoted Ps.95:7-8]
156.) Heb.4:3 [quoted Ps.95:11]
157.) Heb.4:4 [quoted Gen.2:2]
158.) Heb.4:5 [quoted Ps.95:11]
159.) Heb.4:7 [quoted Ps.95:7-8]
160.) Heb.5:5 [quoted Ps.2:7]
161.) Heb.5:6 [quoted Ps.110:4]
162.) Heb.6:14 [quoted Gen.22:17]
163.) Heb.7:17 [quoted Ps.110:4]
164.) Heb.7:21 [quoted Ps.110:4]
165.) Heb.8:5 [quoted Ex.25:40]
166.) Heb.8:12 [quoted Jer.31:31-34]
167.) Heb.9:20 [quoted Ex. 24:8]
168.) Heb.10:7 [quoted Ps.40:6-8]
169.) Heb.10:16 [quoted Jer.31:33]
170.) Heb.10:17 [quoted Jer.31:34]
171.) Heb.10:30 [quoted Deut.32:35-36]
172.) Heb.10:37 [quoted Hab.2:3-4]
173.) Heb.11:5 [quoted Gen.5:24]
174.) Heb.11:18 [quoted Gen.21:2]
175.) Heb.12:6 [quoted Prov.3:11-12]
176.) Heb.12:20 [quoted Ex.19:12-13]
177.) Heb.12:21 [quoted Deut.9:19]
178.) Heb.12:26 [quoted Hag.2:6]
179.) Heb.13:5 [quoted Deut.31:6-8/Josh.1:5]
180.) Heb.13:6 [quoted Ps.118:6]

181.) Jam.1:22-24 [James taught to be a doer of the Word]
182.) Jam.1:25 [The Torah is liberating]
183.) Jam.2:8 [James quoted Lev.19:18]
184.) Jam.2:11 [James quoted Ex.20:13-14/Deut.5:17-18]
185.) Jam.2:23 [James quoted Gen.15:6]
186.) Jam.3:2-12 [James did a midrash on the evil tongue (Lev.14)]
187.) Jam.4:6 [James quoted Prov.3:34]
188.) Jam.4:12 [James said YHWH is our Lawgiver. Why need a Lawgiver if the Law is done away with?]

189.) 1Pet.1:16 [Peter quoted Lev.11:44-45; 19:2; 20:7]
190.) 1Pet.1:25 [Peter quoted Isaiah.40:6-8]
191.) 1Pet.2:6 [Peter quoted Isaiah 28:16]
192.) 1Pet.2:7 [Peter quoted Ps.118:22]
193.) 1Pet.2:8 [Peter quoted Isaiah 8:14]
194.) 1Pet.2:22 [Peter quoted Isaiah 53:9]
195.) 1Pet.3:12 [Peter quoted Ps.34:12-16
196.) 1Pet.3:14 [Peter quoted Isaiah 8:12]
197.) 1Pet.4:8 [Peter quoted Prov.10:12]
198.) 1Pet.4:11 [Peter taught to speak as the Oracles of YHWH (Heb.5:12; Acts 7:38; Rom.3:2)]
199.) 1Pet.4:18 [Peter quoted Prov.11:31]
200.) 1Pet.5:5 [Peter quoted Prov.3:34]

201.) 2Pet.2:22 [Peter quoted Prov.26:11]

202.) 1Jo.2:3-5 [We are YHWH's children if we keep His commandments]
203.) 1Jo.2:6 [We are to walk as Yeshua Messiah walked (Torah)]
204.) 1Jo.3:4 [Sin is violating the Torah]
205.) 1Jo.3:22 [We are to do YHWH's commandments and do things that are pleasing to Him]
206.) 1Jo.3:23 [To believe in Yeshua as Messiah is a Torah based faith]
207.) 1Jo.3:24 [Those who keep YHWH's commandments abide in Him, and He in them]
208.) 1Jo.5:2 [We are YHWH's children if we keep His commandments]
209.) 1Jo.53 [It is the love of YHWH to keep His commandments and they aren't a burden]

210.) 2Jo.1:6 [It is love to walk in His commandments]

211.) 2Jo.1:9 [Violators of Torah do not abide in the teaching of Yeshua which is to follow Torah]
[Those who abide in the teaching of Messiah has both YHWH and Yeshua]

212.) 2Jo.1:10 [John said to have nothing to do with those who teach against the teaching of Messiah]

213.) Jude 1:12 ["love feasts" were the Feast Days (Lev.23)]

214.) Rev.1:6 [The Torah comes forth from Yeshua's mouth]
215.) Rev.12:17 [The adversary is enraged mainly with those who keep Torah & believe in Yeshua]
216.) Rev.14:12 [Those who endure are they that keep the Torah and believe in Yeshua]
217.) Rev.19:15 [Yeshua judges and strikes the nations with the Torah (Word of YHWH/His Sword)]

This list is certainly not exhaustive, and thanks to another brother in Christ that compiled this list.

 

[heymikey80]

The old "bait and switch", eh?

It could be like Scripture says it is. Again, Peter never says "conscientious answer" or "answer Him conscientiously about Christ" or "answered Him in good conscience" or "answers God in good conscience for salvation". Most versions interpret these words as some variation of "an appeal to God for a clear conscience" (ESV, which YOU use as your preferred version). The ones that use the word "answer" (erroneously, in my opinion) use some variation of "the answer of a good conscience toward God" (KJV). Either way, NO ONE interprets this as "a conscientious answer".

Actually my preferred version is UBS82, I use ESV largely because it's easily accessible in English.

Trying to reject one particular phrase when it's substantially what Peter says is like attacking Nicea because its words aren't in Scripture. Homoousios is not in the Bible, dadof10. The "answer in good conscience toward God" is readily termed "conscientious answer".

God isn't obsessed with parroting words back to Him. Get the concept, and you've got the answer.

An appeal FOR a clear conscience, not that IF a person has faith he will "give a conscientious answer" to God.

Just so you know: the Greek preposition for "for" is not in this verse. For the record, the sense covered by your survey of translations is probably best translated "unto", but translators make different choices depending on their consideration of audience: how many people say "unto" in English any more? "for" the way you're using it is actually another preposition.

You are changing Peter's words to advance your non-Biblical position. Sorry, not falling for it.

... when in reality it's you who are changing Peter's words to advance your non-Biblical position. As I happen to know that's true, I'm certainly not going to follow your reading as anything but manufactured.

"βαπτισμα ... συνειδησεως αγαθης επερωτημα εις θεον δι αναστασεως ιησου χριστου"
baptism ... conscientious, good profession toward God through resurrection [of] Jesus Christ

Are we talking about our "reliance" on God or about whether baptism is a "work"?

Another distraction.

It's central. As you must see, the baptism of a conscientious answer can only be made in good conscience toward God. That means it's got to be honest. And the only saving answer to God that's honest, is the answer of saving faith in God. Now faith being reliance in Greek, I'm troubled by your refusal to address what the words say, but simply nit-pick over the words used.

It seems to me what I've just said is heavily retreading simple, tautological statements. I don't see anything unreasonable with it, in fact its reasoning is now too simple to see. A conscientious answer to God is honest. And honestly, someone not relying on God is not telling the truth, and is not being conscientious.

So faith is deduced, it already exists.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There it is again, the arrogance. I had forgotten. Please try and refrain from the "holier than thou" attitude that permeated the other thread. I am not "indoctrinated" because I have a different view than you. I am also not a coward, nor am I weak because I believe that the Catholic Church teaches Truth. Please don't go down this road.

Did you notice the 'us' in what I said? We've ALL been victimized by the corrupt early church leadership who suppressed the truth with their wickedness. And is it always automatically arrogant to come against false and misguided beliefs?

If anything is arrogant here it is this insufferable supremacy of Catholic tradition and teaching. Yuck! Talk about arrogant!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The NT is simply the OT repackaged. I believe Jesus when he says in John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commandments." The following is a compilation of pro-Law/Torah verses. Jethro, I have noticed others are not keen to quoting direct scriptures as it would blow a hole in their arguments that are already leaking like a sieve.


1.) Is.2 [The Torah will be taught in the Millennial Kingdom]
2.) Is.8:20 [Those who are against the Torah have no light in them]
3.) Is.42:4 [The coastlands will wait for YHWH's Torah]
4.) Is.42:21 [YHWH will exalt the Torah and make it honorable]
5.) Is.51:7 [The Torah mentioned to be on people's hearts before Jer.31:33]
6.) Jer.31:33 [The Torah will be on our hearts during the Millennial Kingdom]
7.) Micah 4:2 [Nations will come to learn the Torah in the Millennial Kingdom]
8.) Zech.14:16-19 [The Feast of Tabernacles will be kept in the Millennial Kingdom (Lev.23)]
9.) Lam 2:9 [Jeremiah lamented that the Torah is no more. Why lament if it will be done away with?]
10.) Psalm 119 [David exalted the Torah]

11.) Matt.4:4-10 [Yeshua used the Torah to rebuke the adversary (Deut 8:3; 6:16; 6:13)]
12.) Matt.5:17-19 [Those who teach against Torah will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven]
13.) Matt.7:12 [The Golden Rule (Midrash on Torah)]
14.) Matt.9:20 [Yeshua wore Tzitziot (Num.15:38)]
15.) Matt.11:13 [Yeshua used the Torah & the Prophets to prove John the Baptist valid]
16.) Matt.12:5 [Yeshua interpreted the Sabbath]
17.) Matt.14:36 [Yeshua wore Tzitziot (Num.15:38)]
18.) Matt.22:36-40 [Yeshua taught the greatest commandments from the Torah USING the Torah]
19.) Matt.23:23 [Yeshua emphasized the weightier matters of the Torah USING the Torah]

20.) Mark 3:4 [Yeshua interpreted the Sabbath]
21.) Mark 6:18 [John the Baptist used Torah to rebuke Herod (Lev.20:21)]
22.) Mark 6:56 [Yeshua wore Tzitziot (Num.15:38)]
23.) Mark 10:5-12 [Yeshua taught on divorce using the creation account]

24.) Luke 2:21 [Yeshua circumcised on the eighth day (Lev.12:2-3)]
25.) Luke 2:22-39 [Yeshua was presented before YHWH as the first born (Ex.34:19)]
26.) Luke 2:24 [An offering was made for Yeshua being the first born (Lev.12:6)]
27.) Luke 4:16 [Yeshua's custom was to attend Synagogue on the Sabbath day not Sunday]
28.) Luke 6:3-9 [Yeshua is Master of the Sabbath]
29.) Luke 10:26-28 [Yeshua encouraged Torah observance by elevating the weightier commandments]
30.) Luke 10:30-37 [Yeshua gave a parable of the good Samaritan/love your neighbor]
31.) Luke 14:5 [Yeshua preserved life on the Sabbath]
32.) Luke 16:16 [Yeshua used Torah and the Prophets to prove John the Baptist is valid]
33.) Luke 16:17 [It is easier for heaven & earth to pass away than for Torah to do so]
34.) Luke 24:44 [Suffering Servant Prophecy fulfilled]

35.) John 1:17 [Through the Torah, Messiah's Grace was manifested] *
36.) John 1:45 [Phillip used the Torah & the Prophets to convince Nathaniel about Yeshua being Messiah]
37.) John 5:8 [Yeshua healed a lame man on the Sabbath]
38.) John 7:19 [Yeshua used the Torah to defend Himself]
39.) John 7:22-23 [Yeshua interpreted the Sabbath]
40.) John 7:24 [Yeshua taught to judge righteously (Lev.19:15)]
41.) John 7:49 [Yeshua said those who do not know Torah are accursed]
42.) John 7:51 [Nicodemus used the Torah to prove Yeshua innocent]
43.) John 8:5-12 [Yeshua won the challenge concerning the woman in "adultery" (Lev.20:10)]

44.) Acts 2 [The disciples celebrated Shavuot (Pentecost)]
45.) Acts 6:13 [False witnesses accused the disciples of teaching against the Torah]
46.) Acts 13:14 [Paul went to Synagogue on Sabbath]
47.) Acts 13:15 [Paul attended Synagogue on Sabbath]
48.) Acts 13:39 [Paul taught the Torah and the Prophets in Synagogue]
49.) Acts 13:42 [Gentiles wanted to hear more about Torah and Messiah next Sabbath]
50.) Acts 13:44 [Almost the whole city came the next Sabbath and wanted to learn]
51.) Acts 13:46 [Paul and Barnabas decided to teach Torah/Prophets to the Gentiles (Is.49:6)]
52.) Acts 13:48 [Gentiles were filled with gladness because they get to learn about Yeshua & Torah]
53.) Acts 13:49 [Torah and the Prophets were spread throughout all the region of Antioch]
54.) Acts 15:21 [Moses was taught in all the cities in Synagogues on the Sabbath Day]

55.) Acts 15:28-29
[New gentile converts were to keep the kosher laws of Torah before learning the rest of it]
[Foods offered to idols/eating blood/eating things strangled/sexual immorality]
[(Ex.20:3/Lev.7:26;17:12; 22:8/Deut.14:21)]

56.) Acts 16:13 [Prayer was customarily made on the Sabbath Day]
57.) Acts 17:2-4 [Paul taught Yeshua and Torah for THREE Sabbaths not three Sundays!]
58.) Acts 18:4 [Paul persuaded Jews and Greeks about Yeshua EVERY Sabbath!]
59.) Acts 18:13 [False witness accused Paul of teaching against Torah]
60.) Acts 18:18 [Paul takes a Nazirite vow and shaves his head (Num.6)]
61.) Acts 20:6 [Paul sails to Philippi AFTER Unleavened Bread. Why mention this if it̢۪s done away with?] 62.) Acts 20:7-12 [Paul kept the Sabbath and taught for Havdallah until midnight]
63.) Acts 20:16 [Paul wanted to arrive in time at Jerusalem to keep Shavuot (Ex.34:22/Lev.23:15-22)]
64.) Acts 21:20 [New converts were ZEALOUS for the Torah!]
65.) Acts 21:24 [Paul showed that he keeps the Torah]
66.) Acts 21:28 [More false accusations saying that Paul taught against the Torah]
67.) Acts 22:12 [Paul used the Torah to say Ananias was a devout man]
68.) Acts 23:3 [Paul used the Torah to defend his position]
69.) Acts 23:4 [Paul quoted the Torah (Ex.22:28)]
70.) Acts 24:14 [Paul believed all things in the Torah and the Prophets]
71.) Acts 28:23 [Paul taught people the Torah and the Prophets]

72.) Rom.2:13 [Those who do the Torah and not just hear it are considered justified]
73.) Rom.3:31 [Faith does not make void Torah]
74.) Rom.6:15 [Grace is not permission to sin]
75.) Rom.7:2 [Paul taught the laws of marriage & divorce (Deut.24)]
76.) Rom.7:7 [The Torah is not sin]
77.) Rom.7:12 [The Torah is holy, just, and good]
78.) Rom.7:26 [The Torah is good]
79.) Rom.7:22 [Paul delighted in the Torah of YHWH]
80.) Rom.13:18 [Love fulfills the Torah]
81.) Rom.13:10 [Love fulfills the Torah]

82.) 1Cor.1:18 [Paul quoted Isaiah 29:14 for his doctrine]
83.) 1Cor.1:31 [Paul quoted Jeremiah 9:24]
84.) 1Cor.2:9 [Paul quoted Isaiah 64:4]
85.) 1Cor.2:16 [Paul quoted Isaiah 40:13]
86.) 1Cor.3:19 [Paul quoted Job 5:13]
87.) 1Cor.3:20 [Paul quoted Psalm 94:11]
88.) 1Cor.5:1 [Paul used Torah to rebuke sin (Lev.20:11)
89.) 1Cor.5:6-8 [Paul encouraged believers to keep Passover (Lev.23)]
90.) 1Cor.5:9-11 [Paul taught to not be yoked with the sexually immoral (Lev.20)]
91.) 1Cor.5:12-13 [Paul quoted Deut.17:7; 19:19; 22:21; 24:7]
92.) 1Cor.6:9-10 [Paul listed immoral actions defined by Torah (Lev.20)]
93.) 1Cor.6:16 [Paul quotes Gen.2:24]
94.) 1Cor.7:10-11 [Paul taught on marriage and divorce (Deut.24)]
95.) 1Cor.7:19 [Paul taught that keeping the Torah is more important than IMMEDIATE circumcision]*
96.) 1Cor.7:39 [Paul taught the laws of marriage and re-marriage]
97.) 1Cor.9:9-12 [Paul did a midrash on Deut.25:4]
98.) 1Cor.9:21 [Paul kept YHWH's Torah when ministering to those who didn't have the Torah]
99.) 1Cor.10:1-22 [Paul did a midrash on Ex.32:6]
100.) 1Cor.10:26 [Paul quoted Psalm 24:1]
101.) 1Cor.14:21 [Paul quoted Isaiah 28:11-12]
102.) 1Cor.15:27 [Paul quoted Psalm 8:6]
103.) 1Cor.15:32 [Paul quoted Isaiah 22:13]
104.) 1Cor.15:45 [Paul quoted Gen.2:7]
105.) 1Cor.15:54 [Paul quoted Isaiah 25:8]
106.) 1Cor.15:55 [Paul quoted Hosea 13:14]

107.) 2Cor.3:12-17 [Paul did a midrash on the veil of Moses (Ex.34:33-35)]
108.) 2Cor.4:13 [Paul quoted Psalm 116:10]
109.) 2Cor.6:2 [Paul quoted Isaiah 49:8]
110.) 2Cor.6:16 [Paul quoted Lev.26:12/Jeremiah 32:38/Ezekiel 37:27]
111.) 2Cor.6:17 [Paul quoted Isaiah 52:11/Ezekiel 20:34; 41]
112.) 2Cor.6:18 [Paul quoted 2 Samuel 7:14]
113.) 2Cor.8:15 [Paul quoted Ex.16:18]
114.) 2Cor.9:9 [Paul quoted Psalm 112:9]
115.) 2Cor.10:17 [Paul quoted Jeremiah 9:24]
116.) 2Cor.13:1 [Paul quotes Deut.19:15]

117.) Gal.3:6 [Paul quoted Gen.15:6]
118.) Gal.3:8 [Paul quoted Gen.12:3; 18:18; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14]
119.) Gal.3:10 [Paul quoted Deut.27:26]
120.) Gal.3:11 [Paul quoted Habakkuk 2:4]
121.) Gal 3:12 [Paul quoted Lev.18:5]
122.) Gal.3:13 [Paul quoted Deut 11:26-28; 27:15-26]
123.) Gal.3:16 [Paul quoted Gen.12:7; 13:15; 24:7]
124.) Gal.4:27 [Paul quoted Isaiah 54:1]
125.) Gal.4:30 [Paul quoted Gen.21:10]
126.) Gal.5:14 [Paul quoted Lev.19:18]

127.) Eph.4:8 [Paul quoted Psalm 68:18]
128.) Eph.4:25 [Paul quoted Zechariah 8:16]
129.) Eph.4:26 [Paul quoted Psalm 4:4]
130.) Eph.5:31 [Paul quoted Gen.2:24]
131.) Eph.6:2 [Paul quoted Deut.5:16]

132.) Philipp.2:17 [Paul related himself to a drink offering (Lev.23:13)]

133.) 1Thess.4:2 [Paul taught to walk in the Commandments of YHWH]
134.) 1Thess.4:3 [Paul taught to avoid sexual immorality (Lev.20)]
135.) 1Thess.5:1-11 [Paul taught that those who don't know the Feast Days are in darkness/blind]

136.) 2Thess.1:8 [Paul quoted Isaiah 24:23]

137.) 1Tim.1:8 [Paul taught that the Torah is good if one uses it right]
138.) 1Tim.5:18 [Paul quoted Deut.25:4]
139.) 1Tim.5:19 [Paul taught the concept of two witnesses (Deut.19:15)]

140.) 2Tim.3:15 [Paul said Timothy had known the "Holy Scriptures" (Torah/Prophets) since his youth]

141.) 2Tim.3:16 [Paul referred to the Torah/Prophets when he said "Scripture, Doctrine, Instruction"]
142.) 2Tim.4:6 [Paul related himself as a drink offering (Lev.23:13)]

143.) Titus 2:9 [Paul taught obedience to the Torah concerning bondservants & masters (Deut.15:12-18)]
144.) Titus 2:14 [Paul taught that Yeshua died so we will have zeal for good works (Torah)]

145.) Heb.1:5 [quoted Ps.2:7/2Sam.7:14]
146.) Heb.1:6 [quoted Deut.32:43/Psalm 97:7]
147.) Heb.1:7 [quoted Ps.104:4]
148.) Heb.1:9 [quoted Ps.45:6-7]
149.) Heb.1:12 [quoted Ps.102:25-27]
150.) Heb.1:13 [quoted Ps.110:1]
151.) Heb.2:8 [quoted Ps.8:4-6]
152.) Heb.2:12 [quoted Ps.22:22]
153.) Heb.2:13 [quoted 2Sam.22:3/Isaiah 8:17-18]
154.) Heb.3:11 [quoted Ps. 5:7-11]
155.) Heb.3:15 [quoted Ps.95:7-8]
156.) Heb.4:3 [quoted Ps.95:11]
157.) Heb.4:4 [quoted Gen.2:2]
158.) Heb.4:5 [quoted Ps.95:11]
159.) Heb.4:7 [quoted Ps.95:7-8]
160.) Heb.5:5 [quoted Ps.2:7]
161.) Heb.5:6 [quoted Ps.110:4]
162.) Heb.6:14 [quoted Gen.22:17]
163.) Heb.7:17 [quoted Ps.110:4]
164.) Heb.7:21 [quoted Ps.110:4]
165.) Heb.8:5 [quoted Ex.25:40]
166.) Heb.8:12 [quoted Jer.31:31-34]
167.) Heb.9:20 [quoted Ex. 24:8]
168.) Heb.10:7 [quoted Ps.40:6-8]
169.) Heb.10:16 [quoted Jer.31:33]
170.) Heb.10:17 [quoted Jer.31:34]
171.) Heb.10:30 [quoted Deut.32:35-36]
172.) Heb.10:37 [quoted Hab.2:3-4]
173.) Heb.11:5 [quoted Gen.5:24]
174.) Heb.11:18 [quoted Gen.21:2]
175.) Heb.12:6 [quoted Prov.3:11-12]
176.) Heb.12:20 [quoted Ex.19:12-13]
177.) Heb.12:21 [quoted Deut.9:19]
178.) Heb.12:26 [quoted Hag.2:6]
179.) Heb.13:5 [quoted Deut.31:6-8/Josh.1:5]
180.) Heb.13:6 [quoted Ps.118:6]

181.) Jam.1:22-24 [James taught to be a doer of the Word]
182.) Jam.1:25 [The Torah is liberating]
183.) Jam.2:8 [James quoted Lev.19:18]
184.) Jam.2:11 [James quoted Ex.20:13-14/Deut.5:17-18]
185.) Jam.2:23 [James quoted Gen.15:6]
186.) Jam.3:2-12 [James did a midrash on the evil tongue (Lev.14)]
187.) Jam.4:6 [James quoted Prov.3:34]
188.) Jam.4:12 [James said YHWH is our Lawgiver. Why need a Lawgiver if the Law is done away with?]

189.) 1Pet.1:16 [Peter quoted Lev.11:44-45; 19:2; 20:7]
190.) 1Pet.1:25 [Peter quoted Isaiah.40:6-8]
191.) 1Pet.2:6 [Peter quoted Isaiah 28:16]
192.) 1Pet.2:7 [Peter quoted Ps.118:22]
193.) 1Pet.2:8 [Peter quoted Isaiah 8:14]
194.) 1Pet.2:22 [Peter quoted Isaiah 53:9]
195.) 1Pet.3:12 [Peter quoted Ps.34:12-16
196.) 1Pet.3:14 [Peter quoted Isaiah 8:12]
197.) 1Pet.4:8 [Peter quoted Prov.10:12]
198.) 1Pet.4:11 [Peter taught to speak as the Oracles of YHWH (Heb.5:12; Acts 7:38; Rom.3:2)]
199.) 1Pet.4:18 [Peter quoted Prov.11:31]
200.) 1Pet.5:5 [Peter quoted Prov.3:34]

201.) 2Pet.2:22 [Peter quoted Prov.26:11]

202.) 1Jo.2:3-5 [We are YHWH's children if we keep His commandments]
203.) 1Jo.2:6 [We are to walk as Yeshua Messiah walked (Torah)]
204.) 1Jo.3:4 [Sin is violating the Torah]
205.) 1Jo.3:22 [We are to do YHWH's commandments and do things that are pleasing to Him]
206.) 1Jo.3:23 [To believe in Yeshua as Messiah is a Torah based faith]
207.) 1Jo.3:24 [Those who keep YHWH's commandments abide in Him, and He in them]
208.) 1Jo.5:2 [We are YHWH's children if we keep His commandments]
209.) 1Jo.53 [It is the love of YHWH to keep His commandments and they aren't a burden]

210.) 2Jo.1:6 [It is love to walk in His commandments]

211.) 2Jo.1:9 [Violators of Torah do not abide in the teaching of Yeshua which is to follow Torah]
[Those who abide in the teaching of Messiah has both YHWH and Yeshua]

212.) 2Jo.1:10 [John said to have nothing to do with those who teach against the teaching of Messiah]

213.) Jude 1:12 ["love feasts" were the Feast Days (Lev.23)]

214.) Rev.1:6 [The Torah comes forth from Yeshua's mouth]
215.) Rev.12:17 [The adversary is enraged mainly with those who keep Torah & believe in Yeshua]
216.) Rev.14:12 [Those who endure are they that keep the Torah and believe in Yeshua]
217.) Rev.19:15 [Yeshua judges and strikes the nations with the Torah (Word of YHWH/His Sword)]

This list is certainly not exhaustive, and thanks to another brother in Christ that compiled this list.

Awesome!

 

[Mitspa]

Which parts of the torah? all of it, or just the part you think you can keep?
None of you keep the torah!
False witnesses! There you already broken one! lol
If you break one you have broken them all!

Yes! law was a shadow of that which was to come. Christ is the fulfillment of all that was written.THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!
For all the law and the phophets were speaking of Him. The New Testament shows the completion of all things in Christ Jesus.

Now some of you claim that Christ has completed parts of the Law? Jesus said NOT ONE JOT OR TITTLE WOULD PASS UNTIL ALL THE LAW IS FULFILLED.

He said He came to fulfill the law. That was all about Him. So why some of you cannot understand that law and old testament are used to show the truth of the new and who we are in Christ? So just Ignore the New Testament because it uses the Old as a witness? Thats just foolishness!

The works of law are dead works for a dead religion.

That no one is justified by the works of the law is evident!
If any man preach another gospel than that of Pauls? THEY ARE CURSED. cut off from Christ! fallen from grace!

Same tricks that all of you who preach the law use? Thow out so much nonsense and mud mixed with a little truth, and see if it will stick? Twist the meaning of clear scripture and purpose of that scripture! I tell you on judgment day, that every lie and every false word will be laid upon all those who oppose the gospel.

for all men will be judged by Pauls Gospel!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To believe this? one would have to reject all that is written by Paul and the whole report of the gospel.

You mean this part, too?

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:28 NIV1984)

Explain how Paul says we are justified by faith apart from observing the law, yet that faith upholds the law. Certainly you're not ging to say the definition of law suddenly changed in the discussion with no corresponding change in context to support that claim.

So you are just wrong! The Royal Law is the commandment of Christ! The perfect law of liberty is the gospel!

That's funny, James says the royal law is 'love your neighbor as yourself' "found in scripture" (James 2:8). What scripture do you suppose he's talking about where this royal law is found? The law of Moses perhaps, LEVITICUS (as in Old Testament) 19:18?

James does not put any under the law of moses but uses it as an example!

Right, he uses three examples from the law of Moses of what we are supposed to do to justify (SHOW) ourselves as being righteous and having a faith that is alive, not dead, so we can be saved on the Day of Wrath.

The very specific example is Leviticus 19:15 about not showing favoritism to the rich, but somehow he really didn't really mean it to be a literal example to follow because that would be putting us under the law (for it surely comes from the law of Moses)? Really?

You see it that way, because EVEN UNTIL THIS DAY WHEN MOSES OR THE OLD TESTAMENT IS READ A VEIL LAYS UPON THEIR HEART AND MIND. for the god of this world has blinded them from seeing the glory of Christ in His Gospel.

I believe a man is NOT justified (MADE righteous) by works of the law, so how is it that I'm blind to a gospel I agree with that says a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law? Explain.

 

[Mitspa]

Then you have misunderstood my position.

<Make sure your faith is of the quality that upholds the requirements of the faith summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' so you can know for yourself that you have the faith that justifies all by itself apart from the works of the law and will thus be saved on the Day of Wrath.>

Fixed it for you.

edward, some of these will never be content with the truth of the gospel. Until they have laid the yoke of the law on the justified and holy ones of Christ, they cannot rest until they have done evil. The scriptures warn us over and over about these decievers. Satans ministers always use the mask of righteousness. Why is it so important to satan (THE ACCUSER) to have the justified believer under the law?

For his power against us comes from our weakness and sin in the flesh. The law always condemns the flesh! But He became sin and judge sin in the flesh, that we could be justified in spirit. So walk ye in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
For sin will not have dominion over you, because you are not under law but under grace.

Those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and FREE GIFT of righteousness shall reign in life with Christ!

Grace and peach be multiplied to you brother, through the knowledge of Him.
Grow in grace and knowledge!

 

[Mitspa]

You mean this part, too?

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:28 NIV1984)

Explain how Paul says we are justified by faith apart from observing the law, yet that faith upholds the law. Certainly you're not ging to say the definition of law suddenly changed in the discussion with no corresponding change in context to support that claim.




That's funny, James says the royal law is 'love your neighbor as yourself' "found in scripture" (James 2:8). What scripture do you suppose he's talking about where this royal law is found? The law of Moses perhaps, LEVITICUS (as in Old Testament) 19:18?



Right, he uses three examples from the law of Moses of what we are supposed to do to justify (SHOW) ourselves as being righteous, having a faith that is alive, not dead, so we can be saved on the Day of Wrath.

The very specific example is Leviticus 19:15 about not showing favoritism to the rich, but somehow he really didn't really mean it to be a literal example to follow because that would be putting us under the law (for it surely comes from the law of Moses)? Really?



I believe a man is NOT justified (MADE righteous) by works of the law, so how is it that I'm blind to a gospel I agree with that says a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law? Explain.

First I have already shown how the law is "established"
In that very chapter it says clearly "we know that whatsoever the law says, it says to those who are under the law that all may become guilty before God. In Gal. it is made very clear that the purpose of the law was to bring us to faith in Christ.

I am not sure of your translation NIV or whatever? But I am well trained in the Greek.

And again to use the righteous and good that one sees in the law is not to overthrow the whole of the gospel, James uses the law to point to Love! and says that if you love your as yourself you do well.
Then goes on to say that we will be judged by the LAW OF LIBERTY. a contrast to the law of sin and death. The law of bondage! For strength of sin is the law.

You cannot seperate these verses from the whole counsel of the new Testament! James assumes that one has heard and understands the gospel as Paul taught.

Again the law was a shadow of that which would made true in Christ.

Rahab takes away any attempt to make this about the law of moses! And one has to deny the gospel to believe that James is putting believers back under law.

Also I think I saw one quote 1 John? This is HIS COMMANDMENTS, TO BELIEVE ON HIS SON AND LOVE AS HE GAVE COMMANDMENT.

so one must read all of the epistles! You cant just pick and choose and then leave out that which shows the truth of what is being stated. THIS IS CALLED BEING A FALSE WITNESS! all who preach the law are false witnesses! you guys are always hypocrites because the law produces hypocricy in the flesh of all who are under its yoke!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Which parts of the torah? all of it, or just the part you think you can keep?
None of you keep the torah!
False witnesses! There you already broken one! lol
If you break one you have broken them all!

So, this means I can murder, and steal, and commit adultery? Because you claim to follow those rules would be to go back under the law of Moses again.

Your main problem could be you simply do not understand the argument I've been putting forth. Really.

Yes! law was a shadow of that which was to come.

The CEREMONIAL WORSHIP LAW was the shadow--that is, the first covenant of Temple, Sacrifice, and Priest--NOT the moral law. You act as though I never said this to you. I'm beginning to think you simply do not know the argument you are resisting.

Do yourself a favor and do a good read of Hebrews 7-10. Read it a couple of times.

Now some of you claim that Christ has completed parts of the Law? Jesus said NOT ONE JOT OR TITTLE WOULD PASS UNTIL ALL THE LAW IS FULFILLED.

But we all know much more than just a jot or a tittle has 'disappered' from the law--the law of animal sacrifice. Since we know that is true the fulfillment (or the end of heaven and earth) has occurred.

He said He came to fulfill the law. That was all about Him. So why some of you cannot understand that law and old testament are used to show the truth of the new and who we are in Christ? So just Ignore the New Testament because it uses the Old as a witness? Thats just foolishness!

Now you're beginning to confuse me. Now you DON'T want to ignore the Old Testament?????

The works of law are dead works for a dead religion.

The first covenant of Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice is what is obsolete and no longer needed. Not abolished as we understand that, but simply not needed for a people perfectly and forever brought near to God through the new way, the New Covenant of faith in Christ. Who needs to continue to make sacrifices for sin in a Temple and through a priesthood who has done that perfectly and forever through the one-time for all-time sacrifice of Jesus in the heavenly Temple through His perfect Priesthood? THAT is what it means for the law to be fulfilled in Christ and no longer needed to be kept literally. Paul explains how it is the on-going debt of law 'love your neighbor as yourself' that we owe each other and which continues as a literal requirement of the law. That is the law that we 'uphold' (Romans 3:31) by our faith in Christ.

That no one is justified by the works of the law is evident!
If any man preach another gospel than that of Pauls? THEY ARE CURSED. cut off from Christ! fallen from grace!

If you mean 'justify' as in to try to MAKE yourself righteous by works of the law then I say, 'AMEN'!

And as true as that is, James says we still have to justify ourselves (SHOW ourselves to be righteous) and 'keep' the royal law of scripture found in Leviticus 19:18 'love your neighbor as yourself. For as James says, "a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone". Of course you're going to continue to insist 'justified' has the exact same meaning and application as Paul uses it in his letters, and thus you will create a clear contradiction between the two, instead of seeing that the context shows us James is using the other meaning of 'justification' when he says, "I will show you my faith by what I do" (James 2:18 NIV1984).

 

[Mitspa]

So then its not every jot and tittle? As Jesus said! Its just this part and that part?
Somebody is wrong and I know its not Jesus!

 

[Mitspa]

So then its not every jot and tittle? As Jesus said! Its just this part and that part?
Somebody is wrong and I know its not Jesus!

Those who are under law are always "sin conscience" they think about sin all the time! Because the commandments produces evil desires in them.

If one has been set free from sin by the grace of God, they can understand that sin has lost its power.

Who wants to murder or steal or sin? Only those under law think about such things.

For when one has the law upon their heart, love! They no longer desire to sin, how can I murder the one that I trying to love?

Fear and guilt are not the ways of God! Love is the divine nature. Those who have it, understand how it rules the life of a believer. Those who do not have it, are not of God!

All the law is fulfilled in one word? Love! so those who love need no rules but liberty to love!

So if all the law is fulfilled in one word? Why are some so determined to bring believers under a yoke of the letter than no one has ever kept? I tell you they are workers of the ACCUSER.

so when one of them bring up the law? Just say Yea, I fulfill that by love. The simplicity of Christ? Faith working by love.

 

[dadof10]

Did you notice the 'us' in what I said? We've ALL been victimized by the corrupt early church leadership who suppressed the truth with their wickedness. And is it always automatically arrogant to come against false and misguided beliefs?

Yes, I noticed that you believe the early Church "saddled us with" "indoctrination". What I also noticed is that you left yourself and everyone but me, personally, out of your appeal to "find the power and the courage to overcome the indoctrination", then I personally, "would be able to see James is saying". Here it is in context:

"If you could just find the power and the courage to overcome the indoctrination the early church saddled us with to distance us from the Jews and consider that 'justified' must be understood in the context that it is used in, and that it really does have more than one meaning, you would be able to see James is saying we SHOW ourselves to have the righteousness of God by the obedience of the law, not saying we MAKE ourselves righteous by the obedience of the (moral) law as Paul uses the word."

Now, if you, personally would be so kind as to stop trying to rationalize out-of-line statements and simply put yourself on par with the rest of us and not arrogantly above us as our teacher, we could all make a little progress toward, if not agreement, at least understanding. I suppose you will have no problem with the above sentence (except maybe it's length). Did you notice the "us" and the "we" in the sentence?

If anything is arrogant here it is this insufferable supremacy of Catholic tradition and teaching. Yuck! Talk about arrogant!

Perfect, first attempt to put me, personally down as someone who is just a sheep with no "power" or "courage", then, when called on it, try and focus the vitriol on my Church. What's next, Jack Chick tracts and Dave Hunt quotes? I thought you were better than this, Jethro.

Hopefully you can see your way clear to actually answer the points brought up in my last post instead of ignoring them in favor of rationalization of your personal attacks.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does Paul, or anyone else, teach that "works" means "any non-law work", or anything done, as you said previously?

"...God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace..." (2 Timothy 1:9 KJV)

"5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ..." (Titus 3:5 KJV)

Where does ANYONE in Scripture make the connection between "works" and baptism, for instance?

Baptism is a work of the law, but anyway...

“I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” (Matthew 3:14-15 NIV1984)

Even more to the point, where does ANYONE connect "works" with good deeds done in faith or the lack thereof, like walking by someone in need "without giving them the things needed for the body", as in James? This is what you need to prove, which you can't because SCRIPTURE DOESN'T MAKE THE CONNECTION. This is the notion on which your entire argument hinges and is not biblical or logical.

I already told you. One of his examples of faith that is alive in works is referring to Deuteronomy 15:7-8 . The requirement of law to be generous to the poor is a righteous work of the law. James says when we do that righteous work of the law we are showing our faith in Christ.

I'm lost here. Did you mistakenly leave out a comma or did you mean that having no "works of the law" means you don't have justification?

If you have no works of the law, like 'love your neighbor as yourself', and 'do not show favoritism to the rich', and 'be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy', you have a 'faith' that can not save, because the faith that justifies apart from works of the law MUST be seen in the keeping of those kinds of laws in the law. NOT because those works MAKE you righteous, but because they are the expected and obligatory outcome of saving faith. IOW, they SHOW you to have laid hold of the righteousness of God that comes from faith in God's Promised Son.

Are you trying to draw a parallel between "works of the law" and "the royal law"? They are different.

How is this NOT a work of the law?:

"...love your neighbor as yourself." (LEVITICUS 19:18 NIV1984)

What does 'royal' mean to you? Does it mean it's not part of where it came from? Doesn't it rather mean it is exalted, like a royal leader?

Yes, IF you can prove "works" in James and Paul mean the same thing, which you can't. That is the other (and far more logical) way to reconcile the two, which is MY "choice". Why would you reject this way without any Biblical reason? It's obvious that James is talking about good deeds done in faith (part of the royal law) and Paul is talking about circumcision (part of the law of Moses). Why do you keep rejecting this common sense approach out of hand?

Let's add some common sense to show you I'm right:

"20 ...no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Romans 3:20 NIV1984)

How is it that Paul is ONLY referring to things like circumcision when he says 'works of the law' when he says it is these works of the law make us conscious of sin? Is not being circumcised a sin? Are you following the common sense logic of what I'm pointing out?

So does "faith" and "saved" and many other words, but I'm pretty sure that you would cry "foul" if I made the ridiculous claim that Paul means "to keep in a safe condition; safeguard" when he says "Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God". Certainly "safeguard" is a valid definition of the word, but to claim that Paul means to safeguard HERE ON EARTH from "the wrath of God", would be to damage the meaning. Obviously Paul is talking about the afterlife here, but it IS a valid definition of the word "saved", right?

Why aren't you hearing what I've been saying? I said CONTEXT (and compatibility with other scripture) helps us understand what particular meaning any one word that has multiple definitions means.

This is what you are doing with the word "justify" in James. He OBVIOUSLY means justify in the same EXACT sense Paul means does.

Impossible. Not only does that make his teaching directly opposed to Paul's for the reason I've stated, but the CONTEXT shows us he means to SHOW your declaration of righteousness by what you do, not establish it: "I will show you my faith by what I do" (James 2:18 NIV1984). How can you ignore or write off this obvious clue to what he's means by 'justified'?

Deut. 15? Really? So, every SEVEN YEARS we are under the law of Moses when we help the poor? What about the other six? Deut. 15 deals with the year when the ground was to "rest".

That's it! Turn you Bible in. You can not be trusted to share what it says, lol.

The passage IN NO WAY says this generous giving to the poor and needy is only every seven years. In fact, it says to not be hesitant to give as the seventh year, the year for forgiving what you lend them, nears:

"...do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. 8 Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs. 9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing." Deuteronomy 15:7-9 NIV1984)

The CANCELING of debts is every seven years, NOT THE GIVING TO THE NEEDY!

You must have more evidence that Paul and other NT writers tie "helping the poor" to "works of the law" besides Deut.15?

"27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." (James 1:27 NIV1984)

Surely you would equate pure and faultless religion with righteous work? Looking after widows and orphans in there need and distress are ALSO commanded works of the law.


And don't forget about Leviticus 19:15 that says to not show favoritism to the rich. James uses that righteous work of the law as example of 'doing not just hearing' and how one is to have a faith that is alive and not dead and able to save, thus justifying a man. Works of the law and deeds done from faith certainly are the same thing in Paul's and James' letters.