Total depravity?

[Dorothy Mae]

All are evil.

If they aren't ,then I can say .I don't need Jesus.

No, Jesus preached repentance from sin, not “you are all evil.”

For there is none righteous.no not one .a good sinless man exists right now.?

God thought very well of Job amd said the opposite of your description. Just saying.

He doesn't need to repent .he can be a Buddhists ,a jw ,a Mormon ,an atheist.

Look I can point out in America that you can be pro life and pro God and the locals will hate you.elders have said the clinics aren't in some back alley but next door to churches .I personally went to the closest one.three churches near it!and a magnet school.

If what you say is true kindly explain. Why most of the internet is porn websites?

I wouldn’t know, I never see those sites come up.

Do you look at people you live with and call them “evil?”

 

[brightfame52]

edward

You are almost right. You can't separate the spiritual and the natural. And God gave to each the measure of faith therefore we all have the seed of God within us.

You wrong my friend. Man naturally is dead to God, and has no faith. Man doesnt even seek God, or desires God by nature Rom 3:11

 

[jasonc]

No, Jesus preached repentance from sin, not “you are all evil.”

God thought very well of Job amd said the opposite of your description. Just saying.


I wouldn’t know, I never see those sites come up.

Do you look at people you live with and call them “evil?”

At times yes.
If I say that I think you or x person because of birth defect should die I. Utero .

Pro murder you seem to think a person ago isn't listed as reprobate isnt in hell .

My wife is pro choice .I have had to debate that .a person can do great evul and good.

I guess Jesus won't say depart from me you workers of inquity to the lost.



Mamm I was very much headed to the reprobate way . homosexuality was my thing ,theft and also disrespectful to my parents.

Three worthy of death .but we'll I guess those that steal one thing aren't evil.

It's the wicked versus righteous and job and the those He declares Good where those that humbled themselves .they didn't see themselves as good.

I have a mother in law who sued her own grandchild and lost in court and stole from me .



Daniel didn't pray ,all but me sinned ,but we sinned .job repented once God humbled him for thinking

Define evil to me for those that knowingly deny God who think being gay is ok,pro abortion ,eugenics .there are exceptions but I know pro life atheists who mock God.

I live in a drug invested area.i have had my property stolen. Murders near me and neighbors who are lesbians .I have seen two gay men who walk all the two Miles to the beach wearing shirt shorts and hold hands and do it as a mockery to egg pro marriage types .these wear spandex on the beach and walk .

They are Good ?

What about the filth of music ?pro violence ,drugs and so forth. Yes I get the grey area of listening but out of the mouth .. Disney is in my county .it's not hurting . I'm not talking Orlando though that applies ,but the resort .

But well it's not evil in general.i have had people tell me off for holding a pro life signs it was not many but the abortion minister said in the county south that is more common then not .

People clearly know it's evil to do abort ,they smile and don't deny it when confronted.i have seen it myself.

Im not saying to be paranoid but don't assume that your friend or family won't steal .

I have a lesbian ,atheist step daughter .I can't trust her . I tried .I told my wife .no more. We tried she doesn't want it .I never made her go to church .I never pushed her towards it. Just she has issues.some mental health but can't force them to change.i had to make the choice of baker acting her .

So please ,you seem to have some soft view of Holy and How any sin in us damns us .God doesn't use a sliding scale of sin to let go. he had Jesus pay the full price and give grace through him without denying justice .

You can call out a person in truthful way .I know one who and has called having an abortion.murder and quoted the way God felt .

He checks that with a reminder he too isn't better and offers grace with it.

 

[jasonc]

The Incarnation and Evil - John & Charles Wesley Center for Christian Thought and Apologetics

It is important for us to remember that the original events surrounding the birth, infancy, and early childhood of Jesus were not a sentimental experience of cherubic joy. The story of the Magi seeking for the King of the Jews reminds us of how evil, self-seeking, and vicious human beings can...

jcwcenter.org

That's the modern arminist church .

How is that place teaches previent grace and sees we are capable of evil.

Either you are for Jesus or not .his child or enemy.

Yet one can't seem to think we are evil and sin inclined

 

[crossnote]

The theology expressed is Calvinism. We are in the Calvinism section.Yet you accuse me of inventing (for no reason) that the discussion is about Calvinism. And then accuse me of some untoward motive for doing so. This leap into the irrational combined with a person attack shows you cannot refute my protests regarding your theology.

More drama. My point is 'call it what you will, I'll try to keep the discussion on God's Word', as that is how I came to what you call 'Calvinism'. (I prefer the 5 Solas of the Reformation).

He didn’t stop talking about the Jews. He didn’t make chapter divisions and so move on to a new topic.

Actually Paul didn't start addressing the Jew until the middle of chapter 2. Before that we see God's wrath on all unrighteousness for those (Jew and Gentile) who hold the truth in unrighteousness (described unto the end of chapter 1. In chapter two, Paul takes on again both Jew and Gentiles...

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:1-16)

Paul doesn't address the Jew specifically until 2:17...

Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
(Rom 2:17).

So anyhow, there you have it.

The problem with this “all have sinned” emphasis is it’s robbed the Gospel of convicting hearers of THEIR sins and made it generic. This is what we see in the NT preaching. No one preached “all have sinned and you too” but they preached the truth and conviction fell for real individual sins. So people repented off real sins and received real forgiveness.

"All have sinned" is for point of clarification that there are no special classes of people in dealing with God and His judgment. It's very similar to Paul's preaching here...

Acts 17:30-31 (KJV) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

At times yes.
If I say that I think you or x person because of birth defect should die I. Utero .

Pro murder you seem to think a person ago isn't listed as reprobate isnt in hell .

My wife is pro choice .I have had to debate that .a person can do great evul and good.

I guess Jesus won't say depart from me you workers of inquity to the lost.



Mamm I was very much headed to the reprobate way . homosexuality was my thing ,theft and also disrespectful to my parents.

Three worthy of death .but we'll I guess those that steal one thing aren't evil.

It's the wicked versus righteous and job and the those He declares Good where those that humbled themselves .they didn't see themselves as good.

I have a mother in law who sued her own grandchild and lost in court and stole from me .



Daniel didn't pray ,all but me sinned ,but we sinned .job repented once God humbled him for thinking

Define evil to me for those that knowingly deny God who think being gay is ok,pro abortion ,eugenics .there are exceptions but I know pro life atheists who mock God.

I live in a drug invested area.i have had my property stolen. Murders near me and neighbors who are lesbians .I have seen two gay men who walk all the two Miles to the beach wearing shirt shorts and hold hands and do it as a mockery to egg pro marriage types .these wear spandex on the beach and walk .

They are Good ?

What about the filth of music ?pro violence ,drugs and so forth. Yes I get the grey area of listening but out of the mouth .. Disney is in my county .it's not hurting . I'm not talking Orlando though that applies ,but the resort .

But well it's not evil in general.i have had people tell me off for holding a pro life signs it was not many but the abortion minister said in the county south that is more common then not .

People clearly know it's evil to do abort ,they smile and don't deny it when confronted.i have seen it myself.

Im not saying to be paranoid but don't assume that your friend or family won't steal .

I have a lesbian ,atheist step daughter .I can't trust her . I tried .I told my wife .no more. We tried she doesn't want it .I never made her go to church .I never pushed her towards it. Just she has issues.some mental health but can't force them to change.i had to make the choice of baker acting her .

So please ,you seem to have some soft view of Holy and How any sin in us damns us .God doesn't use a sliding scale of sin to let go. he had Jesus pay the full price and give grace through him without denying justice .

You can call out a person in truthful way .I know one who and has called having an abortion.murder and quoted the way God felt .

He checks that with a reminder he too isn't better and offers grace with it.

Where you live people are evil. There are places like that in the world.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

More drama. My point is 'call it what you will, I'll try to keep the discussion on God's Word', as that is how I came to what you call 'Calvinism'. (I prefer the 5 Solas of the Reformation).

Then you need to talk to the rest of the world including this site because they determined the name is “Calvinism” not covering it up with some long winded more appealing make-up.

Actually Paul didn't start addressing the Jew until the middle of chapter 2. Before that we see God's wrath on all unrighteousness for those (Jew and Gentile) who hold the truth in unrighteousness (described unto the end of chapter 1. In chapter two, Paul takes on again both Jew and Gentiles...

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Notice according to the deeds they actually did, not some nature they were born with. Paul had no concept of an inborn sin nature no man can be responsible for and for which he is punished.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:1-16)

Very strongly based on what we do, no mention of a sin nature. Those verses do not support your claim. Clearly he places emphasis on what people do, the opposite of predetermined eternal destiny.

Paul doesn't address the Jew specifically until 2:17...

Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
(Rom 2:17).

So anyhow, there you have it.

There we have it. Judged by deeds, the opposite of preselected by the judge before birth. Why judgement at all if everyone is preselected is also a question. But certainly from the above passages, eternity is based on judgement after death.

"All have sinned" is for point of clarification that there are no special classes of people in dealing with God and His judgment. It's very similar to Paul's preaching here...

Acts 17:30-31 (KJV) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Judged based on deeds done in the body, not a preselected destination.

The rest of Romans does not support Calvinism at all. A lot of teaching in judgment based on deeds. No inborn moral decay mentioned. “All have sinned” is clearly all have “DONE SIN” not all are morally evil from babyhood on.

 

[crossnote]

Then you need to talk to the rest of the world including this site because they determined the name is “Calvinism” not covering it up with some long winded more appealing make-up.


Notice according to the deeds they actually did, not some nature they were born with. Paul had no concept of an inborn sin nature no man can be responsible for and for which he is punished.

Very strongly based on what we do, no mention of a sin nature. Those verses do not support your claim. Clearly he places emphasis on what people do, the opposite of predetermined eternal destiny.

There we have it. Judged by deeds, the opposite of preselected by the judge before birth. Why judgement at all if everyone is preselected is also a question. But certainly from the above passages, eternity is based on judgement after death.


Judged based on deeds done in the body, not a preselected destination.

The rest of Romans does not support Calvinism at all. A lot of teaching in judgment based on deeds. No inborn moral decay mentioned. “All have sinned” is clearly all have “DONE SIN” not all are morally evil from babyhood on.

You just don’t get it and no wonder you reject ‘all have sinned’.
I guess you believe there is still hope in your good works.

I see I’m just wasting my time from someone who flatly refuses Paul’s Gospel and so I will follow Jesus’ advice

[6] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Mt. 7:6

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You just don’t get it and no wonder you reject ‘all have sinned’.
I guess you believe there is still hope in your good works.

For anyone else following along, when a Calvinist (others too) cannot answer a valid point, they drop into ad hominem, that is, a personal attack. In this case, The cherished excuse for doing wrong to others is under attack so accuse those wielding the Word of saying that they personally are sinless or into works salvation. This isn’t my first rodeo. The attacks are typical. There is no one in the Bible who blamed an inborn sin nature they can’t help. That’s my statement. My opinion of me isn’t a part of the discussion.

I see I’m just wasting my time from someone who flatly refuses Paul’s Gospel and so I will follow Jesus’ advice

Paul NEVER said what you insist he did.

[6] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Mt. 7:6

“The bereans were more noble because they searched the scriptures to see if these things be so.” Anyone considering Calvinist would do well to do the same.

 

[Edward]

There is no one in the Bible who blamed an inborn sin nature they can’t help.

What about Paul

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.../

When we born again, we were given a new spirit. The flesh has not been born again. The flesh is still corrupt.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What about Paul

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.../

When we born again, we were given a new spirit. The flesh has not been born again. The flesh is still corrupt.

Thank you Edward for your kind response. Now, on what basis do we assume this is since childhood or earlier? Notice he was only describing himself, not claiming to describe the human race from infancy.

If we look at the descriptions Paul gives in the early chapters of Romans, we see him describing adults, clearly. They REFUSED to receive a love of the truth. Ah ha, their choices made themselves into characters caught in sin.

And isn’t this what we see in life. No one ever blames the wrong done to them on sin nature. Don’t we observe people’s choices that result in habits and eventually character? Aren’t the wise careful in their choices lest they become bad habits? Parents mourn the sweet children they had who got into the wrong crowd and wrecked their lives. We don’t comfort them with a sin nature doctrine because they’ll say they weren’t that way until they met xzy. “Bad company corrupts good morals” is true.

I can go on and on with examples from real life showing we don’t start sinning because of an inborn sin nature we can’t help. And scripture backs me up.

 

[Edward]

Thank you Edward for your kind response. Now, on what basis do we assume this is since childhood or earlier? Notice he was only describing himself, not claiming to describe the human race from infancy.

Why don't we try not to read anything into it and take it on the basis of who and where he was at that moment when he said it?

Where Paul was at was at being born again and in the service and ministry of the Lord Jesus. Walking with God, preaching and teaching, and receiving revelation from the Holy Spirit. Paul, having realized these things about himself was teaching on it. Paul was like, oh this is good stuff, I have to write this down so that other believers can benefit from the teachings of it...So that's why it's in scripture.

You can't ethically sidestep scripture as easily as you have done. It's just, incorrect.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Are you suggesting that this is Paul's personal law and it's not the same with all of us?!

 

[crossnote]

“The bereans were more noble because they searched the scriptures to see if these things be so.” Anyone considering Calvinist would do well to do the same.

I started off studying the Scriptures before I knew there was anything called 'Calvinism', it led me to much of what Calvinism teaches, but not all e.g. infant baptism etc.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I started off studying the Scriptures before I knew there was anything called 'Calvinism', it led me to much of what Calvinism teaches, but not all e.g. infant baptism etc.

It was never heard of before Calvin.

Crossnote: If you’re satisfied with your theology and the questions it cannot answer then you are free to do so.

I read the Bible from cover to cover many times over and during some decades and never got any hint of what Calvinism teaches being shocked the first time I heard the theology later in life.

My only real concern is you will never come to understand God as long as you cling to it. The answer, “I don’t know why” demonstrates this although “but I trust Him anyway” is, of course an honorable choice.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Why don't we try not to read anything into it and take it on the basis of who and where he was at that moment when he said it?

Ok

Where Paul was at was at being born again and in the service and ministry of the Lord Jesus. Walking with God, preaching and teaching, and receiving revelation from the Holy Spirit. Paul, having realized these things about himself was teaching on it. Paul was like, oh this is good stuff, I have to write this down so that other believers can benefit from the teachings of it...So that's why it's in scripture.

No, that’s not at all how it happened. His letters tell a completely different story.

You can't ethically sidestep scripture as easily as you have done. It's just, incorrect.

Oh too bad you falsely accuse me. The Calvinist side step the scripture. Paul wrote extensively of deeds, what you do, choices you make, etc. Not a word about sin nature we all suffer from and aren’t at fault. This is there. They side step it.

Are you suggesting that this is Paul's personal law and it's not the same with all of us?!

It’s not a law. Sin is not a law. You can look through the OT and you won’t find such a law.

 

[crossnote]

It was never heard of before Calvin.

Crossnote: If you’re satisfied with your theology and the questions it cannot answer then you are free to do so.

I read the Bible from cover to cover many times over and during some decades and never got any hint of what Calvinism teaches being shocked the first time I heard the theology later in life.

My only real concern is you will never come to understand God as long as you cling to it. The answer, “I don’t know why” demonstrates this although “but I trust Him anyway” is, of course an honorable choice.

We all have understanding of God...within limits...

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1Co 13:12

Even Calvin had it right, but not perfectly.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We all have understanding of God...within limits...

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1Co 13:12

Even Calvin had it right, but not perfectly.

Moses knew the ways of God. Knowing God is not a democratic matter. God doesn’t evenly distribute this knowledge. Jesus had his favorite three.

 

[Whatever]

It was never heard of before Calvin

You haven't read enough.

Even before Jesus people believed in predestination. Josephus uses the word "fate"
Josephus Antiquities of the Jews. Book 13. 5.9

1. (171) At this time there were three sects among the Jews, who had different opinions concerning human actions; the one was called the sect of the Pharisees, another the sect of the Sadducees, and the other the sect of the Essenes. (172) Now for the Pharisees, they say that some actions, but not all, are the work of fate, and some of them are in our own power, and that they are liable to fate, but are not caused by fate. But the sect of the Essenes affirm, that fate governs all things, and that nothing befalls men but what is according to its determination. (173) And for the Sadducees, they take away fate, and say there is no such thing, and that the events of human affairs are not at its disposal; but they suppose that all our actions are in our own power, so that we are ourselves the cause of what is good, and receive what is evil from our own folly. However, I have given a more exact account of these opinions in the second book of the Jewish War.

In the 5th century St. Augustine taught it.
The German Martin Luther (1483-1546) taught it and wrote a book called "The Bondage of the Will"
Ulrich Zwingli started the Swiss Reformation in 1519, his teachings largely paralleled Luther’s.
Then in 1541 John Calvin was invited to Geneva and put his doctrine to practice.

 

[Edward]

Ok

No, that’s not at all how it happened. His letters tell a completely different story.

Oh too bad you falsely accuse me. The Calvinist side step the scripture. Paul wrote extensively of deeds, what you do, choices you make, etc. Not a word about sin nature we all suffer from and aren’t at fault. This is there. They side step it.

It’s not a law. Sin is not a law. You can look through the OT and you won’t find such a law.

SO I should just tear those pages out of my Bible?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

SO I should just tear those pages out of my Bible?

No, you should read them instead of ignoring them. The Calvinist read things not there and ignore the things there. Paul talks excessively about what people DO, their deeds, their choices and insist that none of this is true but we are all born as babies with a sin nature and cannot help our choices, its not our fault.