Under Grace not Under Law

[Truthfrees]

Maybe.

Nevertheless, the condition remains for salvation; Believe.

Those who believe for a while then no longer believe, are no longer saved.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13


JLB

agreed

 

[Truthfrees]

The conditional salvation teaching found in the world anywhere at all is false.

perhaps the human phraseology being added to this conversation is confusing things

as i read everyone's posts i see we are all agreeing that we must believe to be saved

it seems the human terms are what we disagree over - which is such a shame

do we not all agree that we are saved by grace through faith - not of works lest anyone boast? - Ephesians 2:8-9

what more is there beyond this?

 

[reba]

Let us humble ourselves before the living God, beg for His mercy, put our trust only in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life, obey the gospel fully until He returns, and praise His glorious name!

Get change to
.....Humbling ones self in Christ, .....

I came to this site a few years back leaning strongly to ( what for sake of , better verbiage ) i will call your side of this argument.. Reading over and over the postings the circles the cherry picking of both sides .. I have gotten off the fence..

 

[reba]

perhaps the human phraseology being added to this conversation is confusing things

as i read everyone's posts i see we are all agreeing that we must believe to be saved

it seems the human terms are what we disagree over - which is such a shame

do we not all agree that we are saved by grace through faith - not of works lest anyone boast? - Ephesians 2:8-9

what more is there beyond this?

Amen

 

[Papyrus_dust]

perhaps the human phraseology being added to this conversation is confusing things

as i read everyone's posts i see we are all agreeing that we must believe to be saved

it seems the human terms are what we disagree over - which is such a shame

do we not all agree that we are saved by grace through faith - not of works lest anyone boast? - Ephesians 2:8-9

Human terms? No, I wouldn't say it is that. The Bible is clear about everything we've discussed. When Ephesians 2:8-9 is overlooked, or rebuked by the insistence we must work to stay saved, it isn't a matter of human terms. Perhaps a matter of doctrinal allegiance though.
Or, a contemporary example of Jesus encounter as recorded in Matthew 23.

Ephesians says we didn't work to get saved, so how can we boast after we're saved and claim we're working to stay saved?

Working when saved and on behalf of the kingdom as ambassadors of Christ is serving God's purpose as an example of his presence in the world, and his presence within us when the world is literally going to Hell.
. "....that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore we are ambassadors forChrist, as though God were making His appeal throughus. We implore you on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5

 

[reba]

Does anyone posting here believe we do works for Salvation... ?

 

[Papyrus_dust]

agreed

Maybe pause before saying that in response to the affirmation you quoted.
If it is an Amen moment, does that mean if we stop having faith God casts us into our old self, that dead in our sins sinner? Can God revoke our Salvation?
And therein call himself a liar in delivering the irrevocable Good News about his gifts, as Paul observed through his inspiration, of them? Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
No! God is not a man that he is able to lie. Numbers 23:11

You mentioned prior, maybe it is an issue of confusion and a mix up in human terms? Paraphrasing your post. This isn't a human term. This is God's breath: John 5:24, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

Does God not know the meaning of everlasting?

 

[JohnDB]

Does anyone posting here believe we do works for Salvation... ?

Let's not forget that repent is a verb.
It means changing directions. IE turn around... changing attitude.... doing things differently... with a different focus.

Even the Thief on the Cross did this. He may have been restricted in his actions because of the nails but even he repented.
At the same time we have Paul who wrote Colossians 2:21-23 .
Meaning that religious practices are worthless.
James 1 however says that we should do something.

Faith resulting in true gratitude causes actions. What exactly those actions are remain undefined...on purpose.

1John 2:1-17 discusses exactly what a Follower/Telmudeem/disciple of Jesus' must do. Lack of hate (condemnation), lack of sinful lifestyle, and gaining in grace and knowledge of God.

These are the works every Christian must do.
Ordinances are fine to do if you can. Because they are part of having fellowship with other believers. (Hebrews 10:23-24)
Again more "works".

Then as we become engaged with our Sanctification (a never ending process) we become Givers... bestowing unmerited/undeserved favor of money, services, and ourselves upon all who ask...and even a few who don't.
Again more "works".

Sounds like a whole lotta works are required by God. Because according to John, Paul, and James anything else being promoted is something else.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Does anyone posting here believe we do works for Salvation... ?

As in post#27?

 

[Truthfrees]

The Bible is clear about everything we've discussed. When Ephesians 2:8-9 is overlooked,

Ephesians says we didn't work to get saved, so how can we boast after we're saved and claim we're working to stay saved?

200% agreed

but i didn't see anyone saying we need to work to stay saved - i saw one person say we need to continue to believe to continue to be saved - Colossians 1:23

i see people arguing over words like "conditional" "unconditional"

i see everyone basing their argument on Ephesians 2:8-9

i think we are all misunderstanding each other thinking the other guy belongs to a teaching

i see us all leaning on scripture - and all agreeing with scripture

God Bless you my dear friend

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Get change to
.....Humbling ones self in Christ, .....

I came to this site a few years back leaning strongly to ( what for sake of , better verbiage ) i will call your side of this argument.. Reading over and over the postings the circles the cherry picking of both sides .. I have gotten off the fence..

There is no fence in my theology.Nor in my relationship with God. My relationship espouses humbling myself to Christ. I am not in Christ. (Typo edited by staff)I am in Christ . The holy spirit indwells me.
And every believer who is In Christ.
James 4, 1 Peter 5, 1 Corinthians 3:16

 

[billybalke]

But where you'd like to discuss this , "somewhere else", can only be done on a computer. At any time at all.
And since you were in front of your computer to make the statement, you can at least answer the query put to your statement concerning Luke 10.
You followed the rule here, posted scripture with your statement, now prove it. At any time you have the time. Thanks.

Sorry, I intended Lk.13, not 10. And, yes, the elsewhere is on the computer as well.

To be deep in scripture is to cease being Catholic, Protestant (denominational), Jew and Calvinist
Rom.16:16

 

[JohnDB]

Stop​

Post scriptures with supporting arguments...and they need to be related.

Personal comments are going to get you in trouble.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

My error. I responded in kind to Reba's remarks. I'll edit immediately so as to comply to the scripture rule. Forgive me brother.

 

[Truthfrees]

Maybe pause before saying that in response to the affirmation you quoted.
If it is an Amen moment, does that mean if we stop having faith God casts us into our old self, that dead in our sins sinner? Can God revoke our Salvation?
And therein call himself a liar in delivering the irrevocable Good News about his gifts, as Paul observed through his inspiration, of them? Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
No! God is not a man that he is able to lie. Numbers 23:11

You mentioned prior, maybe it is an issue of confusion and a mix up in human terms? Paraphrasing your post. This isn't a human term. This is God's breath: John 5:24, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

Does God not know the meaning of everlasting?

ok i think i see what you are saying

so we all agree that we are saved by grace through faith not of works - Ephesians 2:8-9

some of us believe we must continue in the faith to stay saved - Colossians 1:22-23 - and some of us believe that we can't become unsaved once we are saved - Romans 11:29 - 2 Timothy 1:9 - 1 John 5:11-12

some of us believe works is a sign that we have faith and lack of works is a sign that we don't have genuine faith James 2:18

so the issue is about having a salvation that can be lost vs a secure salvation that can't be annulled?

God Bless you my friend

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Sorry, I intended Lk.13, not 10. And, yes, the elsewhere is on the computer as well.

To be deep in scripture is to cease being Catholic, Protestant (denominational), Jew and Calvinist
Rom.16:16

i understand. Would you then elaborate to fulfill your point concerning Luke 13?
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Aramaean, neither Servant nor Free person, neither male nor female, for all of you are one in Yeshua The Messiah..

 

[Papyrus_dust]

ok i think i see what you are saying

so we all agree that we are saved by grace through faith not of works - Ephesians 2:8-9

some of us believe we must continue in the faith to stay saved - Colossians 1:23 - and some of us believe that we can't become unsaved once we are saved Romans 11:29

some of us believe works is a sign that we have faith and lack of works is a sign that we don't have genuine faith James 2:18

so the issue is about having a salvation that can be lost vs a secure salvation that can't be annulled?
God Bless you my friend

Ephesians is of course applicable to the point of eternal irrevocable salvation. See my signature for that verse in Paul's epistle.
God's gift to the world was eternal salvation through his grace.
2 Timothy 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

If we need to stay in faith to remain saved what then of the backslider that loses faith? Are they then damned for eternity? Do they reverse the clock and evict the holy spirit, step back into a baptismal tank and die to the the reborn self that was alive in Christ, after having moved out of Christ, so as to assume the dead sinner flesh again? And then ask God in prayer to recall their former sins and start a tally of new ones?
Is that in scripture? If so where?

Or , being salvation was the free gift of God's grace, 1 John 5:11-12, can that backslider repent of their backsliding and remain in Christ where they always were.

Let us use a contemporary analogy of that. I give you a gift being it is Christmas.
Do you go to work the next day and labor to make the money to pay me for it?
If you broke this gift , does it mean that fact that I gifted you it get erased from history? So that the gift, broken or no, ceases to exist at all?

There is an argument within this discussion, a side if you will, that states we do work to keep our gift. Post 27 is one example.

Thank you. May God bless you as well.



.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Yes agreed.

That is unconditional salvation in a nutshell.

Total Heresy.


JLB

Scripture please to support your proclamation.
Please post the scripture that God revokes his gifts. Thank you in advance.

 

[billybalke]

i understand. Would you then elaborate to fulfill your point concerning Luke 13?
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Aramaean, neither Servant nor Free person, neither male nor female, for all of you are one in Yeshua The Messiah..

Thank you. Lk.13:3: "I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Salvation is conditional. I do not follow your point in on Gal.3:28.
My suggestion was not intended for you solely but for any who hold your position.
Respectfully.

 

[Truthfrees]

If we need to stay in faith to remain saved what then of the backslider that loses faith? Are they then damned for eternity? Do they reverse the clock and evict the holy spirit, step back into a baptismal tank and die to the the reborn self that was alive in Christ, after having moved out of Christ, so as to assume the dead sinner flesh again? And then ask God in prayer to recall their former sins and start a tally of new ones?
Is that in scripture? If so where?

Or , being salvation was the free gift of God's grace, 1 John 5:11-12, can that backslider repent of their backsliding and remain in Christ where they always were.

imo losing faith or backsliding is not enough to lose salvation as per 2 Timothy 2:13 - Praise God that He is faithful when we are not - 2 Timothy 2:11-13

but imo there can be a rare person who disowns Jesus - wants nothing more to do with Jesus - and this person (rare as he may be) renounces/gives up his salvation purposefully and with full knowledge of what he is doing - with hateful intent you might say - 2 Timothy 2:12 - this rare person is the only one that can't be brought again to repentence because this time he rejected Christ with deep intent and full knowledge/awareness/in his clear mind - Hebrews 6:4-8 - not someone who was decieved or not in his full right mind - 2 Timothy 2:13