WHY DO WE SIN?

[Free]

But I am not. You can read the prophets and the teachings of Jesus and they have the same view. You have mainly ONE verse that says David's mother committed adultery when he was conceived. Everyone knows a child is not more sinful because the mother sinned and David said his mother sinned, not his father and not that he was affected.

Anyone who thinks I "have mainly ONE verse," is being very selective or hasn't read my entire posts. I have given several verses that support the idea, including Jesus's own words. You have only given one. The point being, the Bible is quite clear that from conception, to birth, and into childhood, adolescence, and adulthood, everyone has the propensity to sin. You are taking one verse and pitting against all the rest of the biblical evidence.

As I have posted, Job 14:4 states that nothing clean can come from something unclean, and the context makes it clear that it is speaking of humans from the moment of birth.

Psalm 51:5 is not at all speaking of David having been conceived through adultery. To suggest adultery is an unsupportable opinion, as that is never mentioned. What is mentioned is that David was "brought forth," that is born, in iniquity. He then parallels that with being conceived in sin. He is saying first that he was sinful at birth and then goes further back to conception. In other words, he is saying his nature has a propensity for sin. This supports Job 14:4.

Psalm 58:3 clearly says that those who are wicked, have been so from the womb. Of course, that implies that all humans are the same. The idea is that sinning comes easy to every person, from the youngest age. This supports what David said in 51:5 about himself, as well as Job 14:4.

Eph 2:3 says that those who are unbelievers are, by nature, children of wrath.

The biblical evidence, as well as history and our experiences, shows that every person sins; we cannot not sin. The best explanation is that we are born with a propensity to sin. If not, then it would be possible to live a life without sin, and Christ's death wasn't necessary.

So all words, the words of Satan and the words of Jesus and the words of God Almighty are all the same to you?

Not even close. How do you get that from what I said?

So you are a supporting of beating children?

Of course not. Again, how do you get that from what I said?

Do you not know that Proverbs is called "wisdom literature" which means a person is to consider it, think about it. These are not commands and only to be considered.

One considers the words and follows them if they want to be wise, hence, "wisdom literature." Your argument ignores that wisdom literature is still teaching truths.

Again, only wisdom literature, not promises and not commands.

"Not promises and not commands." Let's see if that argument holds up:

Pro 3:1 My son, do not forget my teaching, but let your heart keep my commandments,
Pro 3:2 for length of days and years of life and peace they will add to you.
Pro 3:3 Let not steadfast love and faithfulness forsake you; bind them around your neck; write them on the tablet of your heart.
Pro 3:4 So you will find favor and good success in the sight of God and man.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD, and turn away from evil.
Pro 3:8 It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones.
Pro 3:9 Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
Pro 3:10 then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.
Pro 3:11 My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline or be weary of his reproof,
Pro 3:12 for the LORD reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.
(ESV)

Just like that--commands and promises, from only 12 verses.

And so it is with Pro 23:13:

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. (ESV)

"Do not withhold discipline from a child" is a command. That a child "will not die" from discipline is a promise.

It is clear that you are using this argument only to avoid the obvious implications of what is stated, as they prove your position false. It is a very weak argument since one must entirely ignore the purpose of wisdom literature, at best. Maybe you need to reread Proverbs.

So, again I ask: If as you claim, we don’t have a sinful nature and only start sinning (based on one verse) in our teens, why the need to physically discipline a child?

The state of the world is a complex one but to put is succinctly, we are not alone. Children are not alone and I have actually seen small children imitate bad behavior in their parents. Alternatively, I saw a 3 year old get so mad he wanted to use bad words to express his anger and he did not know any. And he lived with his parents, both, his grandparents and his great grandmother. That little boy knew NO CUSS words. What he actually said was, "you, you, you little Max!" which is just a name that has no other meaning. The adults all laughed.

This ignores the obvious point though: If a child is incapable of sin, then why punish them if they are merely "imitating bad behaviour in their parents"? If what the child has done isn't actually wrong (sin), then for what are they being disciplined?

I, and everyone else, have seen young children hit other children, take things away from other children, lie when asked if they took something that made another child cry, lie when asked if they did something they knew they weren't supposed to do, etc. Children, very young children, do not need to be taught any of this, they just do it. They need to be taught to do what's right, not what's wrong.

 

[D-D-W]

No they didn’t because its not. “Let the marriage bed be HOLY” was the view of the believers til Augustine.

I think it was Jerome who said "the only reason God allows sex between marrieds is to raise up virgins for the church." Another one said "God hates sex so much that when a married couple are so engaged, the holy spirit has to leave the house."

As to that specific verse, the Orthodox opinion is that sex was not allowed before the fall so no sex afterward can be considered holy or pure.

As for what the early church fathers believed: https://christianity.stackexchange....rs-say-that-sex-was-a-consequence-of-the-fall

From http://www.godrules.net/articles/earlychurch-on-sex.htm

JEROME: ​

"Woman is the root of all evil." - St Jerome (c. 320-420)

"Do you imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children? He who is too ardent a lover of his own wife is an adulterer." - St Jerome (c. 320-420)

"And as regards Adam and Eve we must maintain that before the fall they were virgins in Paradise: but after they sinned, and were cast out of Paradise, they were immediately married." - St Jerome (c. 320-420)

JUSTIN MARTYR:

"We Christians marry only to produce children." - Justin Martyr (c. 100–165)

ST. TERTULLIAN: ​

"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die." - St. Tertullian (150-230)

ST. AUGUSTINE: ​

"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman. I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children." - St Augustine (c. 430)

Augustine was neither the first or the only one to decry marital sex.

 

[D-D-W]

Of course the obvious statement by David is correct. His mother is assumed to have committed adultery.

If that is so - then how was Jesse considered his father? In the Gospels no less.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Anyone who thinks I "have mainly ONE verse," is being very selective or hasn't read my entire posts. I have given several verses that support the idea, including Jesus's own words.

I answered all of them most had absolutely nothing to do with your claim.

You have only given one.

Wrong. You didn't read my posts.

The point being, the Bible is quite clear that from conception, to birth, and into childhood, adolescence, and adulthood, everyone has the propensity to sin.

No its quite clear it starts as a man chooses moral wrong which is not infancy.

You are taking one verse and pitting against all the rest of the biblical evidence.

No, I took those that address it. You think babies are born with full language skills including the intellectual ability to know truth but speak lies. I mean, what can one say to someone who claims newborns all speak and tell lies.

As I have posted, Job 14:4 states that nothing clean can come from something unclean, and the context makes it clear that it is speaking of humans from the moment of birth.

No, it the context said so you’d have quoted it.

Psalm 51:5 is not at all speaking of David having been conceived through adultery.

Yes it clearly is. Jeremiah had nothing to say about being sinful in utero but said he was wonderful as an infant.

To suggest adultery is an unsupportable opinion, as that is never mentioned. What is mentioned is that David was "brought forth," that is born, in iniquity.

Nope, mother was thought to have committed adultery which us why his family treated him so.

He then parallels that with being conceived in sin. He is saying first that he was sinful at birth and then goes further back to conception. In other words, he is saying his nature has a propensity for sin. This supports Job 14:4.

No one in the whole of the Bible thought babies lie and are sinful.

Psalm 58:3 clearly says that those who are wicked, have been so from the womb.

Those wicked infants!!! Right…

Of course, that implies that all humans are the same. The idea is that sinning comes easy to every person, from the youngest age. This supports what David said in 51:5 about himself, as well as Job 14:4.

Eph 2:3 says that those who are unbelievers are, by nature, children of wrath.

They became that through choices. You can read in Romans how Paul thought God gave people up to sin and what they became as a result of choices.

The biblical evidence, as well as history and our experiences, shows that every person sins; we cannot not sin.

Some God called “righteous.”

The best explanation is that we are born with a propensity to sin.

No, the Bible says we sin because we want and don't have. That is actually the best explanation but it takes some humility to admit this.

If not, then it would be possible to live a life without sin, and Christ's death wasn't necessary.

No, Jesus said he came for sinners not the righteous. No one told him that this means everyone, I guess. He didn’t seem to think it wasn't worth if there were three righteous in history.

Not even close. How do you get that from what I said?


Of course not. Again, how do you get that from what I said?


One considers the words and follows them if they want to be wise, hence, "wisdom literature." Your argument ignores that wisdom literature is still teaching truths.

No, my view knows the difference between history, wisdom pieces, poetry, prophesy and so on.

"Not promises and not commands." Let's see if that argument holds up:

Pro 3:1 My son, do not forget my teaching, but let your heart keep my commandments,
Pro 3:2 for length of days and years of life and peace they will add to you.

Did the apostles live long on the earth? They fulfilled the requirements. What about the prophets? Or martyrs?

Pro 3:3 Let not steadfast love and faithfulness forsake you; bind them around your neck; write them on the tablet of your heart.
Pro 3:4 So you will find favor and good success in the sight of God and man.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD, and turn away from evil.
Pro 3:8 It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones.
Pro 3:9 Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
Pro 3:10 then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.
Pro 3:11 My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline or be weary of his reproof,
Pro 3:12 for the LORD reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.
(ESV)

Just like that--commands and promises, from only 12 verses.

And so it is with Pro 23:13:

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. (ESV)

"Do not withhold discipline from a child" is a command. That a child "will not die" from discipline is a promise.

It is clear that you are using this argument only to avoid the obvious implications of what is stated, as they prove your position false. It is a very weak argument since one must entirely ignore the purpose of wisdom literature, at best. Maybe you need to reread Proverbs.

I give up. Treat all verses with same if you insist.

So, again I ask: If as you claim, we don’t have a sinful nature and only start sinning (based on one verse) in our teens, why the need to physically discipline a child?

I didn't say that. For one, God saud the TENDENCY is from youth nit infancy or childhood. Second I said we aren’t alone on the planet.

This ignores the obvious point though: If a child is incapable of sin, then why punish them if they are merely "imitating bad behaviour in their parents"?

Does your pet sin? Do you disciple a pooping on-the-go sofa dog?

If what the child has done isn't actually wrong (sin), then for what are they being disciplined?

Have you ever had to train a pet?

I, and everyone else, have seen young children hit other children, take things away from other children, lie when asked if they took something that made another child cry, lie when asked if they did something they knew they weren't supposed to do, etc. Children, very young children, do not need to be taught any of this, they just do it. They need to be taught to do what's right, not what's wrong.

And Ice seen children share and cry unhurt for others and kiss an old grandma and comfort a grieving widow….never taught any of this.
We obviously see the human race differently. Oddly enough, I see potential and you see just sin nature can’t help being evil creatures.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Moat of the bad behavior I’ve seen in children were reflecting their parents choices or they were too young to have self-control.

Much of the bad behavior was actually taught by example.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is the view of theologians who know the difference between “wisdom literature” and prophesy and history and poetry. Its not my decision.

Yeah, so let's forget about all the many commands in it that even you acknowledge are found in other parts of the Bible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oddly enough, I see potential and you see just sin nature can’t help being evil creatures.

All humans are destined to be evil creatures. Only in Christ is the inevitable destiny of a person changed.

 

[D-D-W]

Moat of the bad behavior I’ve seen in children were reflecting their parents choices or they were too young to have self-control.
Much of the bad behavior was actually taught by example.

Which fits into the definition of "iniquity."

 

[GodsGrace]

But it's not the same thing. 'Sin nature' and 'flesh' are not the same thing. That's the point. If one wants to identify the nature of sin, it is not the flesh and it's normal, biological desires and needs. It's the spirit of the person driving the body of flesh. The spirit of fallen man corrupts the natural desires of the flesh. The spirit of a man in union with God's Holy Spirit seeks to fulfill the natural desires of the flesh in an honorable and righteous way.

And, yes, your NIV may well say 'sin nature' instead of 'flesh'. My 1975 NIV does. But, apparently, later versions do not use that term any longer. https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm

I think I was agreeing with you.
Just making some statements.
My Italian bible says IN THE FLESH I SERVE THE LAW OF SIN.

The law of sin is that mindset you're speaking of.
Different Christians call it different names, but I do believe we all mean the same thing.
It is our flesh that sins...but the mindset makes us sin.
Is that better?

 

[GodsGrace]

Almost.
After salvation we have a mindset tending toward the things of God's Spirit. God's Spirit in union with ours.

Romans 8:5,9
5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.

Agreed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Treat all verses with same if you insist.

I think you're the one actually doing that. You seem to be refusing to acknowledge the commands of God in the book of Proverbs and collectively referring to them as suggestions for wise behavior.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No its not. “In sin did my MOTHER CONCEIVE me” means only one thing. Its those whose used this means the baby is sinful who change the original meaning to an “interpretive one.”

What's being misinterpreted here.

Psalm 51:5
5Surely I was brought forth in iniquity;
I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

 

[GodsGrace]

No I don't. But that does not change my answer.

As I said, sin is whatever misses the mark, the bulls eye, of God's will for us.
And unless He WANTS us to have negative thoughts, of course it would be sinful.

A thought might miss the mark, but we have no control over sudden or random thoughts.
I'd say that it's what we do with them that counts.
We need to realize that we're thinking something unpleasant, or judgmental, or whatever, and we
just stop and realize we did, and this is not a sin.

To be a sin, something must be done with one's knowledge of the wrong,
It's a deed or desire contrary to eternal law.
It's an offense against God.
It is disobedience toward God.

A random thought cannot be a sin.

 

[D-D-W]

Psalm 51:5
5Surely I was brought forth in iniquity;
I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

That is NOT what the text is saying. "I was sinful.." is not how וּבְחֵטְא should be translated. First off, the prefix vav (first letter) means "and" which I see nowhere in that rendering. The 2nd letter vet is a preposition translated "in" or "by," which I also do not see there. The rest of the word is an inflected form of the noun chatah which means sin. To miss the mark. It did not say that either child or mother were sinful; the preposition is referring to the action itself.

 

[D-D-W]

To be a sin, something must be done with one's knowledge of the wrong,
It's a deed or desire contrary to eternal law.
It's an offense against God.
It is disobedience toward God.

That is beyond sin, it is transgression.

A random thought cannot be a sin.

You are using the wrong definition of sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is beyond sin, it is transgression.

You are using the wrong definition of sin.

You're right.
It is transgression, which comes just before iniquity.
Please explain your definition of a sin.
We all know it means missing the mark...

 

[Hopeful]

Yes.
It says that we SERVE the one to whom we present ourselves.
We born again do not serve satan, but God.

Actually, Rom 6:16 says "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to OBEY.
The reborn of God's seed do indeed serve only one God.
Jesus said no man can serve two masters in Matt 6:24.

IOW, we might drink wine, but we don't get drunk.
We might dance, but what kind? etc.

Your list in the previous post..."sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, anger, self-ambition, envy, drunkenness, etc."... would be things to abstain from permanently.
Drinking wine or dancing are not works of the flesh...if done in a Godly manner.

I do understand your point.
It's just that I don't see this experientially.
Although I do see born again persons as being holy - set apart - and truly living to please God.

I admonish you to join them in their holiness so you can experience it.

I love my neighbor - but sometimes I think badly of them.

Thinking of and doing are quite separate things.
Can't we legitimately think badly of child molesters without actually committing sins?
I think so.

I love myself - but sometimes I feel discouraged or even worse.

Discouragement isn't sinful.
Read some psalms to increase in your joy.

I love God - but sometimes I find myself falling into the above...
The big sins are easy to be rid of...it's those smaller ones that creep up
that I also call sinning.
But, you know we won't agree on this and we should get off the topic.

I do agree with that "big sins" thing.
It really pays dividends to be always attentive unto the Lord.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, Rom 6:16 says "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to OBEY.
The reborn of God's seed do indeed serve only one God.
Jesus said no man can serve two masters in Matt 6:24.

Agreed.

Your list in the previous post..."sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, anger, self-ambition, envy, drunkenness, etc."... would be things to abstain from permanently.
Drinking wine or dancing are not works of the flesh...if done in a Godly manner.

I think I said that.
Agreed.

I admonish you to join them in their holiness so you can experience it.

I didn't mean that I have or have not experienced it.
I stated that I do not see this holiness you speak of experientially, in my experience,
of dealing with others.
Even those that believe they're Christian.

Thinking of and doing are quite separate things.
Can't we legitimately think badly of child molesters without actually committing sins?
I think so.

That's not what I meant Hopeful.
Of course, I meant to think badly of a neighbor - to be judgmental, maybe in their dress or manner or whatever.
A sinful thinking...

Discouragement isn't sinful.
Read some psalms to increase in your joy.

I do agree with that "big sins" thing.
It really pays dividends to be always attentive unto the Lord.

Feeling discouraged gives joy to the enemy.
I consider it a sin although I feel it quite often.

 

[Hopeful]

??? But he did. As I showed you from his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul actually DID think of them both as "babes in Christ" and carnal.

Paul addressed the church, which had carnal unbelievers in it.

But this isn't actually what Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth - as I showed you from the many references I offered to you from his letter. Yes, he tells the Corinthian Christians to shape up, but he never denies that they are fellow believers but, instead, repeatedly confirms their membership in God's family in the midst of his criticism of them.

He is hoping he can draw them back from the abyss.
A soft word can sometimes do what yelling and raging can't.

Your following exchange with electedbyhim is very concerning, Hopeful:
Yes, thanks be to God.
How do you mean you are sinless? In actual, practical daily living? If so, I would refer you to the apostle John's words:

I mean, I don't commit sin.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

John is addressing the church about BOTH those who walk in the darkness/sin AND about those who walk in the light/God.
Verses 6, 8, and 10, concern those who walk in darkness/sin.
Verses 5, 7, and 9, concern those who walk in the light/God.
Verse 8's folks are those still walking in sin, so of course they cannot say they have no sin.
But I, and others who walk in the light, have confessed our past sins and had all of our past sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
We can surely say we have no sins.

Every child of God is, positionally, in Christ, fully justified and sanctified by him (1 Corinthians 1:30). But in their daily condition, the believer is in a process whereby their position in Christ is being more and more fully manifested in how they live. And so, we read all throughout the NT growth language:

Your doctrine is an accommodation for sin.
Every child of God has turned from sin and been "immersed" into Christ and into His death and burial.
AND, have been raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
We are new creatures with a divine nature now.

Ephesians 4:14-15
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

Hebrews 5:12-14
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

1 Corinthians 14:20
20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

Colossians 2:19
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Obey the exhortations and live forever !

If one is in a process of growth spiritually, they will necessarily be moving from a place of immaturity to maturity, from ignorance to full knowledge, from carnality to crucifixion. But what marks immaturity, ignorance and carnality? Sin, selfishness, spiritual inconsistency. Every believer moves through a process from spiritual immaturity, characterized by moral stumbling, mistaken beliefs, and weak faith, toward holiness, spiritual stability, and deep, settled conviction of the truth of God's word. It is the self-deceived person, then, who claims they are without sin, contradicting God in the making of such a claim.

2 Peter 1:4-9
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may BECOME partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and ARE INCREASING, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

As new creatures, one will continue to grow in grace and knowledge as we age, but our fruit can only be of God now.
We cannot bring forth fruit of any other man's, or devil's, seed.

As it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

 

[Hopeful]

We are fallen creatures that live in a fallen world.

Thanks be to God for providing the way to change both those points.