JoJo's answer about tongues

[Cornelius]

Now, Im asking you for $500.
Are you going to obey Jesus' words or not ?

(mods bear with me)

If I had it, you can have it brother. I have done this many times in my life. This one is not strange to me.If you need money , then please ask and I will see what I can do for you. I use PayPal, that will make it easy for me to transfer money to you. You will have to take it in small amounts as I can afford it, if that is OK with you.
Cornelius

 

[follower of Christ]

Then we can assume you drink Draino and let rattlesnakes bit you ?

Not yet, but if forced, like they did to some Christians in Russia (because of this scripture) God will protect me, like he indeed protected those Russian Christians . I believe the Scriptures.

I speak in tongues, I have casted out demons, so only two more to go LOL

As expected.
So your a hopeful, not a DOER of the word you claim to follow and obey.

Jesus was standing in a high place when Satan told Him to cast Himself down...remember?
What did JESUS say about tempting God ? We shall NOT put the Lord our God to the test.
We are not to put ourselves in danger, yet according to YOU Jesus says we all should all 'take up serpents'.

Friend, you have missed the point of scripture because you are focused WAY too heavily on your pet passages.

 

[follower of Christ]

Now, Im asking you for $500.
Are you going to obey Jesus' words or not ?

(mods bear with me)

If I had it, you can have it brother.

Thats a VERY convenient dodge. Sorry if Im not buying it.

I have done this many times in my life. This one is not strange to me.If you need money , then please ask and I will see what I can do for you. I use PayPal, that will make it easy for me to transfer money to you. You will have to take it in small amounts as I can afford it, if that is OK with you.
Cornelius

Lets make it $10,000 then.
Ill take payments of $500 a month.
I dont remember Jesus saying that you couldnt give me your rent and food money, friend ...He simply said blanketly to give to EVERY man who ASKS of you.

Do you see how I can abuse the PLAIN scripture if I choose to do so ?
I dont need your money brother, I have enough, but God word CAN be abused by those who dont understand what it MEANS.

 

[Cornelius]

In my life, I have always given when asked Once it was a house.

But sometimes the Lord has spoken to me NOT to give, when abuse came into play: Here is the scripture He once gave me, while I was looking after a woman, who refused to work and demanded her "keep" from me each month, because we "have to give" (by this time, I was looking after her for a year already)

2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, If any will not work, neither let him eat.

God taught me how to read all of the Word to come to an understanding. He did not leave us powerless against abuse.

 

[Cornelius]

Do you see how I can abuse the PLAIN scripture if I choose to do so ?

Brother, I just wanted to add: there is no skill in abusing the Word. We have preachers who do that for a living !

 

[Cornelius]

I am sorry JoJo, but this thread went off track. I hope that you can understand some things here and that the Lord will clarify this matter for you.

Heb 11:6 and without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.

All matters take faith. Without faith nothing will happen. These are God's rules, not man's. First you must read the Word for yourself and decide if you believe what it says. If you do, then apply faith and God will do the rest.

You can see the church has split into two groups about this. One group believe and the other group do not believe in tongues anymore. You cannot believe man, you have to go to God about this matter. You will not be the first to battle with this and you will not be the last. Do not allow other people to cloud your thinking, because you only have ONE thing you must do: Ask God.

Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Luk 11:11 And of which of you that is a father shall his son ask a loaf, and he give him a stone? or a fish, and he for a fish give him a serpent?
Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he give him a scorpion?
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

[Cornelius]

OK, I have to ask you: Can you see that there is a condition to receiving the Holy Spirit in that scripture ?

..............to them that ask him?

 

[duval]

Hello Radworth

Sorry, I don't know who Chesterwood or Chesterfield ( Chester something) is. I'm only interested in what the Bible teaches. Didn't Paul say in that great chapter on love "---whether there be tongues they shall cease---"? May I ask, when do you believe they shall cease?

God bless,
duval

 

[lovely]

Paul specifically says that not all will speak with tongues.

Lovely, you should read the thread from the beginning, I covered the section where Paul speaks about "not all speaking in tongues" (meaning not all will speak in church, not at all meaning you cannot pray in tongues in private )
blessings
C

Cornelius, thanks for responding to me. I read your post about this, but I think I would take issue with the way you explained it, to be honest. Basically, I don't agree.

My understanding of those verses is that Paul is actually placing emphasis on the diversity of gifts since we are all various parts of the body. (Paul dwells on this more as we continue on in the chapter) The variety of ministries are all from the same Lord, and the same Spirit. In fact, earlier on in the chapter Paul says that we can't even call Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit. God distributes to each one of us individually according to His good will, and if you notice in the bulk of that passage, the part you quoted, it says, "and to another..." each time a gift is listed. It is implying that it is not to all, but on an individual basis as needed...to another this, and to another that. And then we have this portion of the passage, which is the part I was referring to.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

The answer to Paul's rhetorical question here, is 'no'. We are not all apostles, we are not all teachers, and we do not all have the gift of healing, or the gift of tongues. It's very plain here. The point being that each of us are given a different ministry, and gift, by the Holy Spirit to add our part to the whole so that as one body through love, the greatest gift, reach maturity.

The Lord bless you, Cornelius.

 

[Dave Slayer]

1 Corinthians 14:2 - 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.'

Know this first. Tongues wherever you see them in the Bible are languages, spoken by someone on earth. Therefore whenever we see the word "tongue", we should assume it means a language. It is a foreign language spoke by someone. There is no example of anyone ever speaking in a prayer language that sounds like gibberish. But tongue speakers insist that 1 Corinthians 14:2 speaks of a prayer language when in fact it teaches no such thing. Please allow me to show you.

1 Corinthians 14:2 - 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.'

Remember what a tongue is, a language spoken by someone. If anyone speaks in a tongue (foreign language) does not speak to men but to God. Why does man speak to God here? Because if there is no one to interpret the tongue so that the entire assembly can be edified, man is left speaking to the only one who can understand, God. This doesn't impy a special "prayer language" as many would like you to believe. All it means is that no one understands without interpretation.

Paul says tongues must be interpreted or not to be spoken at all. Now some will say "see, this means to pray in a private prayer language". I believe that is incorrect. The reason why he utters "mysteries" is because no one knows what he is saying, therefore it is a mystery. Tongue speakers would like you to believe that the "mysteries" spoken here are private prayer languages. I also believe that is wrong. If someone interprets the language that is being spoken, it no longer remains a mystery. Just like a crime, it is a mystery (unknown) until it is solved.

The entire context of 1 Corinthians 14:2 has to do with edification of the entire assembly. Tongues must be interpreted or not to be spoken at all. That rules out a so called "prayer language". Tongue speakers basically pick apart this chapter and interpret it according to their own biases and prejiduces. Sure, they have experience speaking in tongues, but that doesn't mean it is coming from God or the Holy Spirit. The scripture does say "he utters mysteries with his spirit", but this isn't the Holy Spirit otherwise the word "spirit" would be capitalized like it is in every place in the Bible where it is used.

The devil is a deceiver and I believe he has perverted the true gift of tongues. What that does is it causes Christians who can't speak in tongues to feel like they are missing out on an experience from God, and when they can't, they feel miserable and sometimes even doubt their salvation. Satan knows he can't have Christians so what does he do? He makes them feel miserable. And I believe he has done a masterful job with perverting the true gift of tongues and causing those who can't speak in tongues to doubt their salvation. The devil has perverted so much of what God has given, it is sad. But it is only for a season.

Let me also add that the city of Corinth was a place where many people from different nations passed through it's harbors. This created a language barrier in the Corinth Church assembly. Paul knew this, and this is exactly why Paul said tongues must be interpreted. Paul never encouraged a private prayer language that sounds like gibberish. Tongue speakers interpret it that way only because they need scriptural "proof" to support their claim. However, I believe they are incorrect.

What Paul encouraged was edification of the entire assembly and not just the tongue speaker. Paul was rebuking those who built themselves up by praying in a tongue because it was not edifiying the assembly. If the tongues were interpreted, the entire assembly could be edified. Furthermore, if Paul wanted tongues to be interpreted so that everyone would know what was being said, why would he encourage Christians to speak in tongues by themselves if they didn't know what they were saying? That is kind of backwards, don't you think? Basically, tongue speakers were "showing off" and trying to act spiritual. I believe Paul was rebuking that rather than commending it.

Paul was saying that if no one is able to interpret the tongues, then you are to be silent. He didn't say to continue on speaking in tongues to God in a private prayer language, he said to be quiet. The context was speaking in tongues in an assembly so that everyone gathered could be edified by understanding what was being said, not at home by yourself where no one is understanding what is being said.

 

[JoJo]

I'm sorry I haven't been around today to respond to any of these posts. My kids and I set up our new swimming pool (nothing fancy, only 3 feet high x 12 feet round) and have been playing in the pool all day and grilling for dinner. But I feel since this post has my name on it (lol) I should at least contribute!

Cornelius, thank you for taking the time to explain your position. Everyone else, thank you for adding your experiences and opinions. I will be quite honest with all of you: this thread only adds to my confusion. But that's okay. I'm not worried about it. If God wants me to have the answer to the question of tongues, He will provide enlightenment and understanding.

But for now, I see valid points on both sides of the aisle and I don't want to make a statement about my own opinion. I don't know if tongues was only meant for the early church or if it is meant for today. I don't know if tongues only represents various native languages or unintelligible jibberish. I don't know if there is a difference between "tongues" and "tongues" as a "prayer language."

This I do know: I love the Lord Jesus with all my heart and soul and I know that the Holy Spirit dwells within me. I may not speak in tongues or prophesy but the Lord has given me my own special gifts. In the meantime, I don't attend churches that speak in tongues. It makes me feel very strange and uncomfortable. I do not believe the Lord wants me to feel strange and uncomfortable about anything regarding Him and sometimes I have doubted whether some who profess they speak in tongues are truly speaking the Lord's language. This is my own personal conviction. I am not trying to push my beliefs on anyone else or judge them for their beliefs.

 

[radorth]

Dave, yes people abuse the gifts and speak in gibberish. They abuse all the gifts and wear them as badges. So why not throw them all out?

I have other questions, and I might say reading your posts brings up more questions than answers, to wit:


How do you know exactly what Paul meant when he said "I will pray with my spirit.."?

How do you know exactly what "groanings which cannot be uttered" is or sounds like?

How do you know that God doesn't use other than a human-invented language? In fact why should he use a language anyone knows?

What are the tongues of angels then?

What difference does it make if I spoke in a language I don't understand and can't tell you what human language it is, as long as God heard and responded, and gave it to me?

I don't think you answered the question, did I ask for a fish and get a stone?

Maybe the devil has perverted the gift. Why is that a reason to throw it out? Why would he not pervert all the gifts?

I suggest that your beliefs prevent you from answering these and you seem unwilling to admit there may be things in heaven and earth not comprehended by your Christianity.

Words of wisdom, knowledge, miracles, discerning of spirits-are they not needed either? Using yours and others logic here, haven't we all advanced beyond the need for them?

I think folks would be interested in your individual answers to these questions. Paul agrees with some of what you say, except where you assume he wanted the gift left out of the church just because it is abused. I have concluded we make too much of a minor gift, on both sides, and we really have no reason to be divided about it.

Rad

 

[Dave Slayer]

Dave, yes people abuse the gifts and speak in gibberish. They abuse all the gifts and wear them as badges. So why not throw them all out?

I have other questions, and I might say reading your posts brings up more questions than answers, to wit:


How do you know exactly what Paul meant when he said "I will pray with my spirit.."?

How do you know exactly what "groanings which cannot be uttered" is or sounds like?

How do you know that God doesn't use other than a human-invented language? In fact why should he use a language anyone knows?

What are the tongues of angels then?

What difference does it make if I spoke in a language I don't understand and can't tell you what human language it is, as long as God heard and responded, and gave it to me?

I don't think you answered the question, did I ask for a fish and get a stone?

Maybe the devil has perverted the gift. Why is that a reason to throw it out? Why would he not pervert all the gifts?

I suggest that your beliefs prevent you from answering these and you seem unwilling to admit there may be things in heaven and earth not comprehended by your Christianity.

Words of wisdom, knowledge, miracles, discerning of spirits-are they not needed either? Using yours and others logic here, haven't we all advanced beyond the need for them?

I think folks would be interested in your individual answers to these questions. Paul agrees with some of what you say, except where you assume he wanted the gift left out of the church just because it is abused. I have concluded we make too much of a minor gift, on both sides, and we really have no reason to be divided about it.

Rad

Radorth, I think I have stated my arguments rather well here in this debate. There is no instance in the entire Bible where someone was speaking in a language that sounded like "blah allah blah blah". I have nothing else to say other than what I have said allready. If you believe my arguments are flawed, so be it. I am willing to admit I might be wrong. But I have a feeling you would never be willing to admit that you are wrong. There is a chance I am wrong, but there is a chance you are wrong also. Neither of us are infallible and neither of us should act like we know it all. I have argued the best I could from the scriptures and I believe my arguments were accurate based on my understanding of the scriptures.

I have went over tongues of angels in prevous posts and wish not to repeat myself. I speak to God in English and I am doing great with that. I do not feel I need to speak to God like a baby for Him to understand me. I am an adult now, I don't need to talk like a baby. No offense intended, but I am fine speaking to God in a known human language. Groanings that cannot be uttered are just that. They cannot be "uttered". Tongues are obviously uttered, but Romans 8:26 says the Holy Spirit's groanings cannot be uttered, yet tongue speakers inists they can be. In my opinion, tongue speakers are very good at cherry picking the scriptures that appear to prove their point while ignoring others that refute it. Romans 8:26 says the Holy Spirit's groanings cannot be uttered yet people are uttering them. That is a contradiction. The Holy Spirit doesn't need us to utter some mumbo jumbo gibberish so that He can successfully pray for us.

All in all, I don't mind so much if people speak in tongues, so long as they don't try and make me feel bad because I do not. Like I have said in previous posts, I pray to God in my English tongue and that has worked very well. Tongue is a topic that has been heavily debated here and I am tired of it to be perfectly honest. It's not that I don't believe stronlgly on my position because I do. I just find it a waste of time to debate it over and over again. You believe what you believe and nothing will change it. I believe what I believe and nothing will change that either. The only thing that can change anyone is the Holy Spirit. If either of us are wrong, I pray that the Holy Spirit will be the one to change our hearts and not repitious arguments.

My part of this debate is now finished. I do not have the time or desire to continue.

God Bless,

Dave

 

[radorth]

Dave, of course I could be wrong. Answer my questions sincerely as best you can, and I will seriously entertain the notion that the devil visited me and my friend that night.

One thing I will assert, I have fewer hard beliefs about what the Bible says. I have come to bellieve that beliefs are the worst enemy of faith. I have found my beliefs need to change and I have changed them as often as anyone has. One example was my belief that there is no purgatory. I studied the NT and the writings of the early fathers and came to believe the Catholics got it right, at least in theory. We cling to beliefs that were taught to us, by men way to sure of themselves, because it is too difficult to admit they were wrong.

Ever notice that jesus never said "I believe..."? Why do you think that is?

One difference between us is this I think: Jesus promised that if I ask God for more of the Spirit, I will not get less and I have found that rue over and over.

BTW I wish you and other folks wouldn't run on about not needing tongues. I already admiited openly that it is a minor gift, and some great lights did not have the gift. I will say that MacArthur is not IMO one of them. But I could be wrong there too.

Rad

 

[Dave Slayer]

Dave, of course I could be wrong. Answer my questions sincerely as best you can, and I will seriously entertain the notion that the devil visited me and my friend that night.

Rad

Radorth, thanks for the invite but I will not answer anymore questions. I don't mean to sound rude, but I am tired of this debate and I wish to spend my time with something else. No offense intended.

God Bless,

Dave

P.S. We all need tongues. Without mine, food would not taste very good. ;)

 

[GojuBrian]

Ya know, I have never heard someone speaking in "tongues" that didn't repeat some babble. Some thing like, "nat nat nat nat nat b b b gi gi gi hula moola bog bog doo fa fa fa fa." ever notice?

My personal belief is that they are not speaking through the holy spirit at all. I believe they are deceived and have to repeat certain things while thinking of something different to babble..I mean say. :D

JoJo, That : uncomfortable" or strange feeling, it is the spirit of discernment telling you something is hokey here.

 

[Cornelius]

So nothing changes.

 

[Cornelius]

it is the spirit of discernment telling you something is hokey here.

Discernment passed away with the early church.

 

[stranger]

it is the spirit of discernment telling you something is hokey here.

Discernment passed away with the early church.

Hi Cornelius,

This sounds like it is beneath you? Getting back to an earlier post -- the gift that is apparent only when it is used, and for all intents and purposes ceases thereafter. If I told you that I may have discovered another 'tongue' that to some degree all English speakers would understand what would you say?

take care

 

[Cornelius]

Hi Cornelius,

This sounds like it is beneath you? Getting back to an earlier post -- the gift that is apparent only when it is used, and for all intents and purposes ceases thereafter. If I told you that I may have discovered another 'tongue' that to some degree all English speakers would understand what would you say?

take care

First, I was showing how ridiculous it is to claim one gift and dump another. They use words that suit them

Secondly, we only have what the Bible says about tongues and it does not depend on our research or discovery.

I used scripture in my posts, and as you can see, not even that would change the minds of those who have rejected the gifts. I can do nothing about that (it was prophesied, so it has to be this way, although sad) Some will seek the Lord about it, if they love to find out what He says about it, some will not, and will stick to their religion.