LAW

[jocor]

that is odd. every patriarch.? and that isn't the case. post me where josephus said that? if that was the case we woud all being using Jehovah as that is the Germanic usage of the YHWH. its a mix of adonai and the name. see exodus 6:3 Abraham nor the patraichs called God , Yahweh.they didn't know that name.

so that isn't possible.

I really would like to answer your posts on this subject, but it is derailing the current thread. Can you start a new thread including your last three posts?

 

[jasonc]

making my point for all to see. exodus 6:3 clearly says that, the patriarchs are known to be prior to moses and don't include moses. what for? another trinity thread? that is where that will go.i know that for sure. and here is why

postscript: the point of all this is to Demonstrate that the "Name of the Lord" is none other then Yeshua (or Jesus). Yeshua=YHWH.

from that link. it also says to deny that the YHWH isn't Jesus is to denigrate the Name of God

 

[jocor]

making my point for all to see. exodus 6:3 clearly says that, the patriarchs are known to be prior to moses and don't include moses. what for? another trinity thread? that is where that will go.i know that for sure.

I do not understand what you are trying to say.

 

[jasonc]

I do not understand what you are trying to say.

re read the edited post and what did Abraham call God, it wasn't YHWH it was El-Shaddai. that is what the bible says. it cant contradict itself.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Paul may have been the least of all living believers at that time, but he will be among the greatest in the coming Kingdom.

We are not free from "the law", but from "the law of sin and death". The "law of sin and death" means "if you break the law and sin, you die". It is a principle he is bringing forth. He also mentions "the law of the Spirit of Life". That is a principle whereby we will live if we walk after the Spirit". He clearly says in verse 7 that those who walk after the flesh (carnal) cannot be subject to the law. The implication is that those who walk after the Spirit will subject themselves to the law. However, if they do, there won't be any condemnation / death for breaking it.

Well Jocor, you've just shown me that you do not understand Romans 8, therefore, it is futile to continue with you until the time comes that you do understand Romans 8.
Your understanding of the Law in verse 7 is not mine.
I see no way for us to build each other up in our relationship with Jesus, so, goodbye!

 

[jocor]

re read the edited post and what did Abraham call God, it wasn't YHWH it was El-Shaddai. that is what the bible says. it cant contradict itself.

This is the only name question I will answer. If you want to continue a discussion on the name, start a new thread.

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Yahweh Yireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of Yahweh it shall be seen.
​

Abraham knew and used the name YHWH. Jacob used the name YHWH and Isaac heard him use it.

Gen 27:20 And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he said, Because YHWH thy Elohim brought it to me.​

What, then does Exodus 6:3 mean?

Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them.
​

It can mean one of two things.

1) They did not know Him by the full meaning of all His name meant.
2) Ex 6:3 is a question: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them?​

I prefer #2.

 

[jocor]

Well Jocor, you've just shown me that you do not understand Romans 8, therefore, it is futile to continue with you until the time comes that you do understand Romans 8.
Your understanding of the Law in verse 7 is not mine.
I see no way for us to build each other up in our relationship with Jesus, so, goodbye!

So, you are not going to tell me the "true" understanding of verse 7?

 

[jasonc]

This is the only name question I will answer. If you want to continue a discussion on the name, start a new thread.

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Yahweh Yireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of Yahweh it shall be seen.
​

Abraham knew and used the name YHWH. Jacob used the name YHWH and Isaac heard him use it.

Gen 27:20 And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he said, Because YHWH thy Elohim brought it to me.​

What, then does Exodus 6:3 mean?

Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them.
​

It can mean one of two things.

1) They did not know Him by the full meaning of all His name meant.
2) Ex 6:3 is a question: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them?​

I prefer #2.

I disagree. why? because most jews and commentators take that as a statement they didn't know that name. moses wouldn't have to be told that is god's name. because he would have KNOWN. he wouldn't have asked what shall is say to them as that name would have known. theres no question mark from these versions.ramban says they heard that name but did NOT call him by that name!

kjv

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

ylt

3 and I appear unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; as to My name Jehovah, I have not been known to them;

nasb

and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as [c]God Almighty, but by My name, [d]Lord, I did not make Myself known to them.

im sure I can get more of those as they all use the Masoretic text .

 

[jocor]

I disagree. why? because most jews and commentators take that as a statement they didn't know that name. moses wouldn't have to be told that is god's name. because he would have KNOWN. he wouldn't have asked what shall is say to them as that name would have known. theres no question mark from these versions.ramban says they heard that name but did NOT call him by that name!

 

[Sinthesis]

The passage concerns a time in our future when they will enter the New Covenant and receive the same new heart and new spirit that we have. When did Israel ever have the indwelling Holy Spirit? This is talking about life under the New Covenant.

Nope, Ezekiel 36 doesn't say anything about a new covenant or the "Holy Spirit". Rather a new heart and spirit to transition God's people from the polytheism they had tolerated amongst themselves, to the monotheism under Moses' law that didn't slander God's name. This is Judaism in the time of the second temple. The world wasn't offered the Holy Spirit in general until Pentecost. It was the absence of the Holy Spirit amongst a fiercely monotheistic people bound by law that resulted in the Crucifixion of Christ. Those who could not accept Jesus is God were required by Moses' law to have Him put to death.

 

[CORE]

I believe it is the Holy Spirit that has been using Sabbath keepers to teach non-Sabbath keepers the truth...

How are you sure that it's not the same spirit that condemned Jesus for "working" on the Sabbath, and then wanted to kill him for it?

 

[Deborah13]

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Why would the Gentiles have to wait until the next Sabbath to hear the Gospel? Why not preach to them the next day for a Sunday sermon?

My point was why Paul was there not about what day it was. I don't believe the sabbath was changed to Sunday. But I will say that the day that our Lord was raised from the dead, the firstfruit of the resurrection was on the first day of the week. The day the omar, the firstfruit of the barley harvest was lift up is this same day.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

Under the New Covenant, the Feasts can be kept anywhere (John 4:21; Acts 20:6; 1 Cor 16:8; Acts 27:9).

John 4:21 - I think what Jesus is saying here is that it is not about a place but about living Godly lives walking in the Spirit and in Truth, glorifying God.
Acts 20:6 - Passover (the Lord's Supper) this is the point I was making, would the unconverted Jews agreed with this? Or would they have said that one must come to Jerusalem for this feast? Of coarse after 70AD that became a moot point.

Certainly believers in Christ can choose to observe the feast and days if they so choose but there is no commandment in the NT to do this. To find them one must turn to the Law of Moses and there are detailed ways that they must be observed in the Law.

[/quote]Act 24:11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.​

Act 24:12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:

Paul went to Jerusalem for one purpose; to worship Yahweh during Pentecost (the Feast of Weeks, Shavuot). Gill's commentary says of Acts 24:11;

"and in opposition to the charge of profaning the temple, he observes that he came up to Jerusalem to "worship"; namely, at the feast of Pentecost."​

[/QUOTE]

Neither did I say that Paul did not observe the feasts in Jerusalem at all, just the opposite.
I thought we were talking about observing the Law. Paul was absent from Jerusalem for three yrs..
The Law of Moses says that every Jewish male must go up to Jerusalem three times a year, Passover, Feast of Weeks, and Feast of Tabernacles.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since the Sabbaths and Feasts will be kept in the millennium, they are not among the laws that are fulfilled spiritually.

Ah, but they are fulfilled spiritually. Hebrews teaches the END of the literal Day of Atonement. Not because it's abolished but because it's no longer needed for a people brought near to God through the New Covenant, Jesus Christ. When we have faith in Jesus Christ the requirement for a Day of Atonement gets fulfilled to God's complete and total satisfaction. IOW, no outstanding debt of 'Day of Atonement' keeping remains for the person who believes in Christ.

 

[jasonc]

the feasts of the tabernacles and also all others if there is a temple per Ezekiel will need to have blood atonement. there is an offering that cleanses the alter first that is done first each morning by the priests . a priest must be holy to enter into the temple and do that work. its stated very clearly in Ezekiel and also Leviticus and elsewhere.

 

[jocor]

How are you sure that it's not the same spirit that condemned Jesus for "working" on the Sabbath, and then wanted to kill him for it?

Yeshua was not doing forbidden work on Sabbath. If he was, while living under the Old Covenant, it would be sin. Since he was sinless, the work he was doing was acceptable in Yahweh's eyes. Therefore, the Jews condemned him unjustly for keeping the Sabbath holy. Christians are not keeping the Sabbath holy as Yeshua did. They either keep it on the wrong day or not at all. The Holy Spirit leads believers to obey, not disobey.

 

[jocor]

My point was why Paul was there not about what day it was. I don't believe the sabbath was changed to Sunday. But I will say that the day that our Lord was raised from the dead, the firstfruit of the resurrection was on the first day of the week. The day the omar, the firstfruit of the barley harvest was lift up is this same day.

The omer offering fell on the first day of the week that particular year, but it varies from year to year. If the Jews are correct, then it is always offered on Abib 16. If we really wanted to memorialize the resurrection day, we should do it on Abib 16 each year, not every Sunday as a new Sabbath.

John 4:21 - I think what Jesus is saying here is that it is not about a place but about living Godly lives walking in the Spirit and in Truth, glorifying God.

Walking in truth and glorifying God requires obedience to His commandments which can be done anywhere in the world.

Acts 20:6 - Passover (the Lord's Supper) this is the point I was making, would the unconverted Jews agreed with this? Or would they have said that one must come to Jerusalem for this feast? Of coarse after 70AD that became a moot point.

Unconverted Jews would have said they must come to Jerusalem. Many of them could care less what Yeshua said.

Certainly believers in Christ can choose to observe the feast and days if they so choose but there is no commandment in the NT to do this. To find them one must turn to the Law of Moses and there are detailed ways that they must be observed in the Law.

There is no NT command against bestiality, yet I'm sure most Christians would agree it is forbidden.

Neither did I say that Paul did not observe the feasts in Jerusalem at all, just the opposite.
I thought we were talking about observing the Law. Paul was absent from Jerusalem for three yrs..
The Law of Moses says that every Jewish male must go up to Jerusalem three times a year, Passover, Feast of Weeks, and Feast of Tabernacles.

I wrote that in response to your saying, "Paul at other times did try to be in Jerusalem during the feasts. He was always trying to convert his Jewish people. At feast times there were large congregations of Jewish men for him to give the gospel message of the Messiah to."

It seemed to me you were implying that the only reason he attended the Feasts was to witness.

 

[jocor]

Ah, but they are fulfilled spiritually. Hebrews teaches the END of the literal Day of Atonement. Not because it's abolished but because it's no longer needed for a people brought near to God through the New Covenant, Jesus Christ. When we have faith in Jesus Christ the requirement for a Day of Atonement gets fulfilled to God's complete and total satisfaction. IOW, no outstanding debt of 'Day of Atonement' keeping remains for the person who believes in Christ.

I agree the atonement sacrifice is no longer needed. However, there are still aspects of that day that need to be fulfilled, ie; the anti-typical Jubilee trumpet will be blown to set the captives of death free from their graves. It will be fulfilled on the exact Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, that Yahweh commanded it to be done.

 

[jocor]

the feasts of the tabernacles and also all others if there is a temple per Ezekiel will need to have blood atonement. there is an offering that cleanses the alter first that is done first each morning by the priests . a priest must be holy to enter into the temple and do that work. its stated very clearly in Ezekiel and also Leviticus and elsewhere.

You can argue about that with Yahweh. He is the one that inspired Zechariah 14:16-19.

 

[JLB]

When Paul uses "law", he means the Old Covenant.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Messiah, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
​

The Old Covenant was added to the Abrahamic Covenant to deal with sin / transgressions of the law.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence (transgressions) might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
​

Yahweh wanted people to know beyond a shadow of a doubt how sinful they were so that when Messiah came, they would see their need for him. The Old Covenant provided a temporary way to deal with those transgressions.

So, when Paul says, "till the seed should come", he is saying the "covenant" that was added would cease. That is why he goes into his teaching about the two covenants in the next chapter. He is showing us why that Old Covenant needed to end. However, the law did not end. It would be written on hearts and minds under the NC.

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."​

It is illogical to assume that Yahweh made Adam on day 6, then set apart and blessed the 7th day, but failed to tell Adam that the 7th day was set apart as holy time with a blessing upon it.

Yeshua said, "The Sabbath was made for man ...". He did not say, "The Sabbath was made for Jews" or "The Sabbath was made only for men who lived after Sinai, but until my death." The Sabbath was made for every man that will ever live. It is Yahweh's gift to mankind and the means by which we remember His Creation and who it is that sanctifies us (Ex 20:11; 31:13).

Every man needs to rest a day every week.

 

[JLB]

The Old Covenant came after the Abrahamic Covenant.



False! The Abrahamic Covenant still exists. The Old Covenant was abolished for believers and was replaced by the New Covenant.



The Son of the one who made the covenant became flesh.



You finally made a true statement.



What does Romans 3:31 mean to you? "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."



The law as it functions under the OC pointed them to Messiah.



HalleluYah!!

My bible says the law was added, until the Seed should come...

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19


It is a reference to the last thing mention. The law.

The law of God was already being kept by Abraham, which he learned directly from walking with God.

That is how we are to learn today.

Walk before Me and be blameless!

Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Same command.


The law was added, UNTIL the Seed should come.

Until means the law of Moses was a temporary condition that was satisfied by the Seed and has been fulfilled and therefore has vanished away. Hebrews 8:14


JLB