LAW

[eddif]

God rested on the sabbath because (IMHO), he had finished all that was needed for Adam and creation itself. Man's rest was a continual reminder of what God had done (just like trinity is seen in the solar system). Man's rest was a symbol to remind us of the creator.

When Jesus completed all that was needed for eternal life (forgiveness of sins -- if we believe), Jesus said it is finished. IMHO, the NT sabbath is a remembrance of what Christ accomplished for us (we have entered into his rest).

eddif

 

[JLB]

God rested on the sabbath because (IMHO), he had finished all that was needed for Adam and creation itself. Man's rest was a continual reminder of what God had done (just like trinity is seen in the solar system). Man's rest was a symbol to remind us of the creator.

When Jesus completed all that was needed for eternal life (forgiveness of sins -- if we believe), Jesus said it is finished. IMHO, the NT sabbath is a remembrance of what Christ accomplished for us (we have entered into his rest).

eddif

Man needs to rest 1 day a week.

The Sabbath was made for man.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Here is a quote from another thread in the Forum, posted by Jethro, on this very subject.

I consider this the best post I have ever read, because of the way he worded it, and because of the relevance of this message that has application over many different areas of our lives.

Sabbath keeping doctrine says Sabbath keeping is a greater expression of the command to love God than 'love your neighbor as yourself' is. I say, scripturally, this is simply not true. In fact, not even close. Those who adhere to the Mosaic worship commands are not the only ones who believe this. It's just that the rest of us in the church have different expressions of love for God that we think are greater expressions of love for God than the command to love him by treating people nicely and with respect and being at peace with them.


The 'law' of the church today that is regarded as the most important expression of love for God is church attendance, church service, reading the Bible, prayer, baptism, operating in a gift, witnessing, giving to the church, and carefully adhering to a particular worship style and doctrinal statement. We are just as deceived as the law keeping crowd, just in regard to different expressions of the command to 'love God'.


Obedience is better than sacrifice.


And God doesn't even want the sacrifice of our worship and service unless we first obey him in being at peace with others (Matthew 5:24 NIV).


This seems to be the elusive truth of the church. This is what being on the narrow road that few find is all about. Love for others, including our enemies (especially?), is the great distinguishing mark between those who really do know God and those who just think they do, deceived by the sacrifice of their worship and service (Matthew 7:21-23 NIV) and their association with and exposure to the ways and teachings of Christ and the church (Luke 13:26-27 NIV).


We each have the obligation to show we really do know God and have his approval in salvation by loving others and treating them kindly, compassionately, and with respect. If we can't do that then we have to take a hard look at ourselves to see whether we really are saved or not. That's what 'making our calling and election sure' is all about. A tree is judged by it's fruit, not by it's outer adornment of leaves. The people of God seem to do well at majoring in the showy leaves of the kingdom, and not so much in bearing the fruit of the kingdom.

Originally posted by Jethro.

JLB

 

[Gregg]

Both. Ex 20:8-11; 31:16. He also told us to "keep" the Sabbath.

The 1st time the Lord wrote the 10 Commandments He uses 'remember' regarding the Sabbath. The 2nd time the Lord wrote the 10 Commandments He uses 'observe' regarding the Sabbath.

Why the change in the Law regarding the Sabbath from 'remember [zakar]' to 'observe/keep [shamar]'?

 

[eddif]

The 1st time the Lord wrote the 10 Commandments He uses 'remember' regarding the Sabbath. The 2nd time the Lord wrote the 10 Commandments He uses 'observe' regarding the Sabbath.

Why the change in the Law regarding the Sabbath from 'remember [zakar]' to 'observe/keep [shamar]'?

I do not know ( given we see through a glass darkly).

I have an opinion. Just as man's years of life were shortened due to sin (IMHO), sin increasing placed the command to observe.

Ok. Gregg. Your turn LOL

eddif

 

[Sinthesis]

Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you ... Is this the indwelling Spirit of Yahweh which is holy? If so, then how is it different from the Holy Spirit?

No, this is not the Holy Spirit. The word 'spirit' applies to life motivation, and God can provide us with many different motivations. The motivation provided by the Holy Spirit is selfless love. The motivation provided to the Jews returning from the Babylonian captivity was repentance and obedience to works. Ezekiel 36:24-27
Grace comes later.

 

[eddif]

Joel 2 is just a short time later, and it is accepted as speaking of Holy Spirit.

eddif

 

[gr8grace3]

The 1st time the Lord wrote the 10 Commandments He uses 'remember' regarding the Sabbath. The 2nd time the Lord wrote the 10 Commandments He uses 'observe' regarding the Sabbath.

Why the change in the Law regarding the Sabbath from 'remember [zakar]' to 'observe/keep [shamar]'?

That is interesting. I would like your insight on this. I have never noticed or looked into that.

 

[Deborah13]

My mistake, very sorry for the confusion. I didn't mean Corinthians but Acts.
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

The gentiles were given these instructions above. They were not instructed to eat kosher, or any of the other Laws of Moses, including a 7th day sabbath.

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Paul says for those who want to hear Moses, there are synagogues where they can go to hear Moses preached.

I think there is a big difference between what you are saying in your response comparing it to an understanding of what fornication is. Sexual desire is only to be fulfilled with the marriage bond of husband and wife. So anything else would be fornication. I think that definition is very clear.

However, you are defining loving YHVH and neighbor as including a specific day of the week as being only day that can be done as a day of rest with YHVH.
What was is your definition of the Sabbath day, it's purpose if you will?

Why would it have been a sin for Paul to eat food like he instructed the gentiles to do in Acts? If it would be a sin for Paul then it would be a sin for the WHOLE Body of Christ. There is no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ, they are all the same and have the same commandments and blessings.

 

[ezrider]

The 1st time the Lord wrote the 10 Commandments He uses 'remember' regarding the Sabbath. The 2nd time the Lord wrote the 10 Commandments He uses 'observe' regarding the Sabbath.

Why the change in the Law regarding the Sabbath from 'remember [zakar]' to 'observe/keep [shamar]'?

That is interesting. I would like your insight on this. I have never noticed or looked into that.

I wonder if there is some symbolism distinguishing the two. As I recall, the first time Moses came down off the mount with the two tablets of stone, he cast them to the earth and break them before the congregation because they had went and made themselves a golden calf and did worship the idol as their god. I have always thought it kind of unique when thinking about the old covenant versus the new covenant in light of the fact that Moses did cast the first 10 commandments to the ground and break them.

 

[jocor]

Colossians 2:16-17
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

As a gentile, I consider this is by a good acceptable Jewish author LOL.

What is the shadow and what is the reality / body casting the shadow . We have to choose whether the sabbaths and food laws are the reality or it is Christ.

It is not about what I believe, but about what Colossians says. The light of the glory of God shines on Jesus to cause a shadow back in history. The shadow is things of Law and creation. The law is a shadow to help you understand the coming reality of Jesus Christ (body is Christ). The law is not the reality casting a shadow figure that is Jesus (sorry Jesus is the body / reality).

(Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ).

(As we saw Jesus go into the heavens we are going to see him come again in the heavens) the reality.
IMHO the reality is about Jesus, and the shadow is about the moon monthly cycle. We watch the moon start as full moon and fade. Then we watch the crescent turn into a full orb again. Father, Son and Holy Spirit ( the realities) were at creation setting up the solar system to speak of the reality that exists. Every moon cycle should remind us of the coming again of Jesus Christ.

The ox was created as a clean animal dealing with corn, but the reality is a clean teacher and his
preparation of Word for teaching.

New moons speak of Christ Jesus.
Food laws speak of Christ as we eat his body and drink His blood (off in the future).
Physical food is a type of receiving clean Word from clean prophets, Jesus, Apostles, Bishops etc.
Man does not live by bread alone, but by Words from God.

The Law was a temporal shadow to speak of the coming Reality of Christ. The moon is still here and so is the Law, but we must perceive them for what they are (teaching tools given by God (that we might know about Him).
Romans 1:19-20

We can easily get tied up with shadows, and miss the realities / bodies.

Christ is the reality.

eddif

My belief concerning Col 2 can be found in the first post here. The passage does NOT say Christ is the reality.

 

[jocor]

I just stated plainly the Ten Commandments did not start with Moses.

I know what you said. I was simply telling you that I never said the Ten started with Moses.

The Sabbath is part of the 10 Commandments.

The Sabbath started long before the 10 Commandments.


What changed by adding the law was the requirement of death, for breaking the Sabbath, while under Moses law.

The requirement for death for breaking the Sabbath did not exist before the law was added.

The requirement for death for breaking the Sabbath does not exist after the New Covenant was established by Jesus Christ.

I agree.

Do you believe the New Covenant is for Abraham's natural descendants?

Yes.

In addition, the Sabbath took on strict rules when the law of Moses was added.

These strict rules don't appear to be requirements in the New Testament writings of the apostles.

Does Messianic Judaism require that the narrow guidelines for keeping the Sabbath, as they are under the law of Moses, should apply to New Covenant believers?

JLB

All rules that Yahweh required concerning the Sabbath are still in force under the NC. Unless you can provide a NT command that states they are not in force, then your belief is only an assumption.

 

[Deborah13]

Colossians 2:16-17
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

As a gentile, I consider this is by a good acceptable Jewish author LOL.

What is the shadow and what is the reality / body casting the shadow . We have to choose whether the sabbaths and food laws are the reality or it is Christ.

It is not about what I believe, but about what Colossians says. The light of the glory of God shines on Jesus to cause a shadow back in history. The shadow is things of Law and creation. The law is a shadow to help you understand the coming reality of Jesus Christ (body is Christ). The law is not the reality casting a shadow figure that is Jesus (sorry Jesus is the body / reality).

(Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ).

(As we saw Jesus go into the heavens we are going to see him come again in the heavens) the reality.
IMHO the reality is about Jesus, and the shadow is about the moon monthly cycle. We watch the moon start as full moon and fade. Then we watch the crescent turn into a full orb again. Father, Son and Holy Spirit ( the realities) were at creation setting up the solar system to speak of the reality that exists. Every moon cycle should remind us of the coming again of Jesus Christ.

The ox was created as a clean animal dealing with corn, but the reality is a clean teacher and his
preparation of Word for teaching.

New moons speak of Christ Jesus.
Food laws speak of Christ as we eat his body and drink His blood (off in the future).
Physical food is a type of receiving clean Word from clean prophets, Jesus, Apostles, Bishops etc.
Man does not live by bread alone, but by Words from God.

The Law was a temporal shadow to speak of the coming Reality of Christ. The moon is still here and so is the Law, but we must perceive them for what they are (teaching tools given by God (that we might know about Him).
Romans 1:19-20

We can easily get tied up with shadows, and miss the realities / bodies.

Christ is the reality.

eddif

Good post!

Brother,

The Ten Commandments didn't start with the law of Moses! JLB

The 10 Commandments are the Law of Moses, the ministration of death written on Stone.

Young's Literal Translation
2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient to be ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.
2Co 3:7 and if the ministration of the death, in letters, engraved in stones, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look stedfastly to the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face--which was being made useless,
2Co 3:8 how shall the ministration of the Spirit not be more in glory?
2Co 3:9 for if the ministration of the condemnation is glory, much more doth the ministration of the righteousness abound in glory;

The 10 Commandments were the only ones written in stone, the other 603 were written in ink and are the details of how one obeys the 10 Commandments. And as verse 7 says, "was being made useless".
Our friend jocor understands this so it is confusing when one says the Law is obsolete but then denies the 7th day sabbath. Or believes they were given before Moses and so the 7th day sabbath would still be the sabbath day of rest commandment.
If you believe the 10 Commandments are not part of Moses Law (which Moses was the mediator of) then you must abide by the 7th day sabbath. It's that simple.
The sabbath day of the 10 Commandments is the 7th day sabbath. In the wilderness, right from the start, the Lord commanded that on the 6th day they would collect a double portion of manna, one being for the 7th day rest.

YLT
2Co 3:10 for also even that which hath been glorious, hath not been glorious--in this respect, because of the superior glory;
2Co 3:11 for if that which is being made useless is through glory, much more that which is remaining is in glory.

Orthodox Jewish Bible
Kehillah in Corinth II 3
10 For indeed what once had kavod has lost its kavod [SHEMOT 34:29-30] on account of the surpassing kavod (glory).
11 For if the thing which now is fading away came with kavod (glory), much more has that which remains come in kavod.

 

[jocor]

God rested on the sabbath because (IMHO), he had finished all that was needed for Adam and creation itself. Man's rest was a continual reminder of what God had done (just like trinity is seen in the solar system). Man's rest was a symbol to remind us of the creator.

When Jesus completed all that was needed for eternal life (forgiveness of sins -- if we believe), Jesus said it is finished. IMHO, the NT sabbath is a remembrance of what Christ accomplished for us (we have entered into his rest).

eddif

So, what you are saying is that we no longer need "a symbol to remind us of the creator"? What is a "NT sabbath"? Sunday?

 

[jocor]

Man needs to rest 1 day a week.

The Sabbath was made for man.


JLB

That "1 day" is the 7th day of the week. No other day will do.

 

[jocor]

Here is a quote from another thread in the Forum, posted by Jethro, on this very subject.

Jethro wrote: Sabbath keeping doctrine says Sabbath keeping is a greater expression of the command to love God than 'love your neighbor as yourself' is.

I do not know of any Sabbath keeper that believes that. The greatest expression of the love of God is to keep His commandments:

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.​

It is sad that non-Sabbath keepers believe the Sabbath is such a burden.

 

[JLB]

I know what you said. I was simply telling you that I never said the Ten started with Moses.






I agree.



Yes.



All rules that Yahweh required concerning the Sabbath are still in force under the NC. Unless you can provide a NT command that states they are not in force, then your belief is only an assumption.

Please list the requirements for keeping the Sabbath in the New Covenant?

As well as the penalty for breaking the Sabbath.


JLB

 

[Gregg]

I disagree with your understanding of the Law, but I won't get into that so as not to get off topic.

That is interesting. I would like your insight on this. I have never noticed or looked into that.

Hello gr8grace3,
jocor replied in another thread [see above] discrediting my 'understanding of the law,' so I thought to see if he himself understands the law. With reason, the LORD made a change in what He wrote in stone. The difference in words regarding the Sabbath begs the question, 'Did the LORD change or modify the Law written in stone based upon man's action, or did He change the Law for another reason?'

I would prefer to withhold my answer until after jocor replies. "For Jehovah is our judge; Jehovah is our lawgiver; Jehovah is our king; He will save us" (Isa 33:22 LITV).

"And one shall say in that day, Behold, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is Jehovah; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation" (Isa 25:9), and "looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," (Tit 2:13).

 

[JLB]

Jethro wrote: Sabbath keeping doctrine says Sabbath keeping is a greater expression of the command to love God than 'love your neighbor as yourself' is.

I do not know of any Sabbath keeper that believes that. The greatest expression of the love of God is to keep His commandments:

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.​

It is sad that non-Sabbath keepers believe the Sabbath is such a burden.

The Sabbath is made for man to rest.

The Sabbath took on a new set of rules and regulations when the law was added.

It seems to me, that it would be extremely burdensome to have to put to death your family members for gathering wood on a Saturday.

However, that's just me, maybe you see it different?


How many times have your congregation had to put to death someone for gathering sticks on a Saturday?


JLB

 

[jocor]

The 1st time the Lord wrote the 10 Commandments He uses 'remember' regarding the Sabbath. The 2nd time the Lord wrote the 10 Commandments He uses 'observe' regarding the Sabbath.

Why the change in the Law regarding the Sabbath from 'remember [zakar]' to 'observe/keep [shamar]'?

IMO all Israel knew the commandment said, "remember". The second version would add to that need to "remember", the need to guard and protect the Sabbath diligently. This second version was given to a new audience whose parents died in the wilderness. They may have needed additional instructions to plant the Sabbath firmly in their hearts and minds.