Mary was born with a sinful nature.

[follower]

However, I believe that when the Holy Spirit entered into Mary's womb, he created a miracle that produced Jesus as the second Person of God taking on human flesh without taking on any of its sinfulness.

Nothing from above, not one iota of Scripture, says Jesus is a second Person of God ever.
Man's traditions, not always or hardly ever in line with God's Word may say that.

 

[follower]

THE SPIRIT OF GOD MATERIALIZED HIMSELF, understand?

Rather the Father created a body for Jesus in the womb, as written.
The Father's Doing.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It is corrupt/ corrupted by sin.
Trust God's Word concerning this.

What sin can skin and bones commit ?
You don't blame your paint job when your can runs bad.

Our back-and-forth has been in the arena of the flesh of those reborn of God still containing sin. (their conclusion, not mine)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Rather the Father created a body for Jesus in the womb, as written.
The Father's Doing.

I would rephrase that, saying, "the Father created a body for the Word in the womb, who was then named "Jesus".

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

No. Jesus did not imply they were disobeying God, nor the will of God.

He Showed A Better Way, always. The Truth. They did not know yet.

Lack of knowledge about Jesus is no excuse for their attempt to interrupt his ministry, to "seize him," which means to "arrest" him.

 

[follower]

Lack of knowledge about Jesus is no excuse for their attempt to interrupt his ministry, to "seize him," which means to "arrest" him.

Not at all sure "arrest" is the same thing.
But sure yes that this event was for Yahweh's Glory , for Truth to be shown certainly.
"Who is My mother and My brother and My sister"?

 

[tdidymas]

Nothing from above, not one iota of Scripture, says Jesus is a second Person of God ever.
Man's traditions, not always or hardly ever in line with God's Word may say that.

What are you driving at?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Hey

Something to consider...

Adam and Eve were ignorant of good and evil, that's what made them sinless. It's the state of innocence we should be considering here. It's not that they couldn't sin. They showed us that they were very capable of sinning. But with that one sin, (eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil), they also lost there innocent state. Maybe that's what we inherit.

Babies are born in this same state of innocence. God calls them innocent, not knowing their left from their right. Jewish tradition teaches that a child loses this state of innocence at age thirteen. 'Bar mitzvah' means son of the Law. "Bat mitzva" for woman. At that point, without the proper faith, they are considered lost. I believe that the correct biblical understanding is a state of innocence is that it depends on ones condition, not ones age.

Macarthur did a few good sermons on this topic called "the salvation of babies who die" Parts 1 and 2.

Just for the record, and for what it's worth, I believe that Jewish tradition teaches this sinful nature is passed down through man's seed. I could be wrong on the source though. I believe that idea may be more like a teaching tool. While technically true, it points to spiritual truth. I don't know.

I'm sure the death blow is being born with what will eventually be the knowledge of good and evil.

When? Kids grow up fast these days, so, I suppose it's different for everybody. Some mentally handicapped people may never reach that condition.

Out of time.

Dave

@Dave, rather than going to other sources, I prefer to go to the Scriptures in discussing childhood "innocence." We have had four children, four grandchildren, and now two great-grandchildren. What does the Bible say about the subject?

Psa 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

God has inspired David to say that he has been conceived in sin in his mother's womb.

All of my descendants came out of the womb self-centered, which I believe is the definition of "sin." For example, babies love to be the center of humans' attention.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Our "natural" condition since the fall into sin is spiritual death, but believers' supernatural condition is spiritual life from the death of sin. But one other passage describes the human sinful condition that God remedies for true believers through Jesus:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Therefore, babies are NOT innocent but ARE sinners who need to be taught who their Creator is.

 

[JLB]

@Dave, rather than going to other sources, I prefer to go to the Scriptures in discussing childhood "innocence." We have had four children, four grandchildren, and now two great-grandchildren. What does the Bible say about the subject?

Psa 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

God has inspired David to say that he has been conceived in sin in his mother's womb.

All of my descendants came out of the womb self-centered, which I believe is the definition of "sin." For example, babies love to be the center of humans' attention.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Our "natural" condition since the fall into sin is spiritual death, but believers' supernatural condition is spiritual life from the death of sin.

One other passage describes the human sinful condition that God remedies for true believers through Jesus:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Therefore, babies are NOT innocent but ARE sinners who need to be taught who their Creator is.

How is a 1 year old baby taught what sin is?

 

[Corn Pop]

Mary said she has a savior. A savior for what?

And Mary said, “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,..."

 

[Walpole]

Mary said she has a savior. A savior for what?

And Mary said, “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,..."

To every Jew, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is Savior. It's one of His titles...

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Saviour." (Isaiah 43:11)

"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (Isaiah 45:21)

"Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no Saviour beside me." (Hosea 13:4)

"The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my Saviour; thou savest me from violence." (2 Samuel 22:3)

 

[Beetow]

.
FAQ: Did Jesus' virgin conception isolate him from the so called fallen nature?

REPLY: No.

FAQ: Why not?

REPLY: The fallen nature isn't inherited. I know that's true because Eve was fully
constructed with material taken from Adam's body prior to his tasting the forbidden
fruit so it was impossible for him to pass it on to her by means of heredity.

The thing is: according to Rom 5:12-21 Adam is the cause of his posterity's fallen
nature, but according to Eph 2:1-2 & Heb 2:14 he isn't the source of it.

FAQ: Well if Adam isn't the source of the fallen nature, then who is?

REPLY: Mr. Serpent is the logical source, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 12:9, Rev 20:2) He
has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human mind
in ways not easily detected. (Eph 2:1-2.)

The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment that
Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it takes effect.
Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both immediately set to work
cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to cover up their pelvic areas.

FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people . . . in the womb or out of the
womb?

REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate the Serpent's ability to work on adults, but
I'm guessing he gets to most everyone else in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & Ps 58:3)

FAQ: The Bible says Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3) So then
why didn't he have the fallen nature like everyone else?

REPLY: It was likely a simple matter for the Holy Spirit to keep the Serpent's paws
off baby Jesus to ensure he would come into the world a sinless man.
_

 

[hawkman]

Psa 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

God has inspired David to say that he has been conceived in sin in his mother's womb.

So "conceived in sin" made David a sinful baby ? No it did not , David came out of the womb with the same nature we all have including Jesus and Mary . To find out what David meant in Psalm 51:5 read in the link I will post .
Read the story out loud at the link and see if anything is revealed to you as you read it out loud .

Nitzevet, Mother of David - The bold voice of silence

He was Israel’s mightiest warrior, revered by friend and foe; yet for the first 28 years of his life he was a lowly outcast . . . The secret story behind the mysterious circumstances of King David’s birth.

www.chabad.org

 

[LanaPodesta]

Some people these days are claiming that Mary was sinless. Just to set the record straight, and setting aside all the scripture that states all have sinned and fallen short of Gods glory. That would include Mary.

The sinful nature of man is passed down through the man. Eve sinned first. but through Adams sin we inherit this sinful nature.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Mary was born of a father. "Heli" Luke 3:23 (Mary's genealogy) Thus she was born with a sinful nature.

Jesus, being born of a virgin, even though His biological mother Mary had a sinful nature, this sinful nature did not pass down to Him since there was no biological father. He received inheritance rights through Joseph. The position, not the blood.

Okay, so here’s how I see it.


Yeah, Mary was human like the rest of us—she had parents and wasn’t like some kind of magic robot or anything. But God chose her for literally the most important job ever: to be the mother of Jesus. And because of that, He gave her this next-level kind of grace to keep her from sin. Not because she was perfect on her own, but because He made her that way for His plan.


People always quote “all have sinned” like it means everyone no matter what, but… Jesus didn’t sin, right? So clearly that verse isn’t saying there can’t be any exceptions. And if God can make Jesus totally sinless, He can totally give Mary a special kind of protection too.


That whole thing about sin being passed down through the dad is, like, one way of thinking about it, but it’s not in the Bible word-for-word. God’s not limited by biology. If He can make a baby without a dad at all (hello, virgin birth), then obviously He can protect someone from sin if He wants to. Mary still had a choice, and she said yes. That’s what makes her amazing—she could’ve said no.


So no, she wasn’t just some random girl. She was chosen, and she was ready, and God gave her what she needed to stay pure. That doesn’t make her above God—it just shows how powerful His grace is. And honestly, she’s goals.

 

[Beetow]

People always quote “all have sinned” like it means everyone no matter what, but… Jesus
didn’t sin, right?

Jesus committed no sins of his own to answer for. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21,
Heb 4:15, and 1Pet 2:22)

However, Jesus was included as collateral damage in the forbidden fruit incident
because the Word's flesh came into the world as one of Adam's biological
descendants the same as the rest of us. In other words: had not Jesus been
crucified, he would've eventually passed away of some other cause because
he wasn't immortal in this life.
_

 

[hawkman]

REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate the Serpent's ability to work on adults, but
I'm guessing he gets to most everyone else in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & Ps 58:3)

Curious here , what do you say that Satan does to an infant in the womb ?

 

[Beetow]

what do you say that Satan does to an infant in the womb ?

There's an incident recorded in John 8:44 wherein Jesus told his opponents that the
Devil was their father and that the works of their father they would do.

Apparently the Devil has the ability to adjust human nature in such a way as to
make people come into the world more like himself and less than like God which, if
true, is a horror story waiting to be told by Hollywood's best writers and producers.
They've probably thought of it, but maybe they figure it would be too disturbing for
audiences to watch.
_

 

[tdidymas]

Jesus committed no sins of his own to answer for. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21,
Heb 4:15, and 1Pet 2:22)

However, Jesus was included as collateral damage in the forbidden fruit incident
because the Word's flesh came into the world as one of Adam's biological
descendants the same as the rest of us. In other words: had not Jesus been
crucified, he would've eventually passed away of some other cause because
he wasn't immortal in this life.
_

The forbidden fruit incident was about spiritual death, not physical. Everyone in this life has (had) a mortal body, even Jesus, even Adam and Eve. Adam would have died a natural death eventually even if he had not sinned, unless he had eaten of the tree of life (which was also in the garden). Adam and Eve were denied access to the tree of life because God did not want them to live forever in a sinful state of spiritual death.

 

[tdidymas]

There's an incident recorded in John 8:44 wherein Jesus told his opponents that the
Devil was their father and that the works of their father they would do.

Apparently the Devil has the ability to adjust human nature in such a way as to
make people come into the world more like himself and less than like God which, if
true, is a horror story waiting to be told by Hollywood's best writers and producers.
They've probably thought of it, but maybe they figure it would be too disturbing for
audiences to watch.
_

The movie has already been released in several versions - Rosemary's Baby, It's Alive, Demon Seed, among some others (I can't think of the titles right now). But let me point out something - in Rom. 3:10-18 it describes a person who is not born again, and the context tells us that we all were in the same situation, just like it explains in Eph. 2:1-3. Just because someone obeys laws and thinks they are righteous doesn't mean they aren't a dirty rotten sinner in the eyes of God and "useless" to His purpose. Jesus told those Jewish leaders they were children of the devil because they arrogantly thought they were right in hating Jesus and condemning Him. The sinful nature is the work of the devil, according to 1 John, and everyone is a child of the devil (by nature children of wrath) until they come into God's grace and faith in Jesus. At that time the Holy Spirit dwells in them and puts them on the right path spiritually (and in lifestyle), and they become a child of God.

Therefore, there aren't any "special people" that Satan can "adjust human nature" in some special way, as if others aren't adjusted to having a sinful nature already. Everyone is a sinner (and a child of the devil) until God makes them born again into His kingdom (Col. 1:13).

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

How is a 1 year old baby taught what sin is?

A baby is born with a sinful nature. How do I know? Psalm 51 says so:

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Babies are born self-centered and have to be taught that God must be the center of their lives instead of themselves. Self-centeredness is my biblical definition of the word "sin."