Raptures – Tribulation

[for_his_glory]

Different positions I see. Not exactly one doctrine but that is to be expected.

Hi, if you believe other than pre-trib I will not go into a lengthly rebuttal to try to change your mind you are entitled to what you believe I agree to disagree. It will all come to pass one day. I think the bible has past, present and future meaning myself. I was just wondering if anyone else saw the parallels or made the connection. Everyone should research it throughly and this is my position I hold.
I still believe that one of the best arguments is the imminent return. According to Daniel he spelled out the days. If we are to be surprised at his coming, as in the wedding ceremony, just to be ready and when you see these things beginning to come to pass look up.
If we have to go through the tribulation and I am talking the 7 years which I believe begins when Jesus starts opening the seals, the 4 horsemen don't sound like a picnic. Is the church mentioned after he starts opening the seals? Only Tribulation saints. then the remnant which I believe is Israel.

Mat 16 v 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Then in Rev 13 v7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. What has changed? I believe these are the people that come to the Lord during the Trib. That come out of the trib.

So if you think we go through it that would be like saying quote (ok bride let me beat the living tar out of you and then lets go get married )..The Great Trib or known as Jacobs Trouble would start in the middle of the seven years. And I agree with Kathi the main thing is to be ready which is a good thing.
If we live expecting is there not a crown awaiting for us also for expecting him?
2 Tim 4:8 "Finally, there is laid up for me the CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing."

Are people saying
2 Peter 3 v4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Then there is the thought that is it our righteousness no it is his righteousness that cleanses us. We just try to keep our garments clean by keeping a close relationship.
Luke 21 v36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. I think escape is a key word here.
As far as the church goes his sheep know his voice.

Thats what I believe

Raelyn, there is much more than the little excerpt I posted. If you go to my website and click on Second Coming of Christ you will see my full article I have written on this subject. Everything I have studied on this is straight out of the KJV of the Bible. I never expect everyone to agree with me, but only ask that you study the scriptures for yourself apart from what others are teaching. Like I said, I use to believe in pre-trib until I did my own in-depth study of the scriptures and now believe we will be here when the seventh trumpet sounds.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is a...hard to comprehend issue. I was hard core pre-trib for years until...some things came to light which caused my to throw out everything I thought I knew and start over on it and completely re-studied the whole issue for a long time, and I then concluded that pre-trib was wrong and the truth was post-trib rapture.

I was confident and settled in my heart about this. And then...without questioning, without asking, without wondering... something happened which I can not discuss, which caused me to take another fresh look at the issue. Something big. So I am once again re-researching the facts and scriptures about rapture, pre-mid, or post.

I don't like to be wrong, and I pray a lot to not be deceived, or to deceive myself. A very very good case can be made for pre-trib AND post-trib. If one is honest with themselves, when the study this, they would have to admit this. Ego aside, pride, respect for men and teachers, preconceptions...all of it, has to be set aside in order to be able to receive the truth no matter what it is, if we like it, or want this or that to be the truth. The truth is the truth and there is no other.

So in the meantime, i am living as if, the rapture could happen tonight, because I do want to be ready, i do not want to be left behind if it comes.

One big realization that I have come to recently, is....(IF) a pre-trib rapture happens...Will the entire church be taken. I don't think so. This is Jesus's Bride that he's coming for. Without blemish. Ready.

Check this out...There's four levels of relationship or covenant, correct? We have follower, we have friend, we have son, and we have bride. (poke holes in this and tell me where I'm wrong brothers and sisters)

All four levels are destined for eternal life, to be saved. Followers are saved and are of the (for lack of a better term) lukewarm types but believe. They lack the passion and works for the Lord to increase the harvest to any great extent.

The friend or (salt covenant) is higher. Friends of the Lord have more privileges than servants/followers and greater revelation and so forth, but not as much as sons or brides.

Sonship is family and with it is very much more revelation, intimacy, trust, empowerment and privileges than mere friends.

Then you have the bride. She has the most privileges than even sons do, being the wife. She is unblemished. She has total reverence and obeys...is holy and justified in every way. She knows the Lords voice and listens and is led of the Spirit always.

So if and when the pre-trib rapture happens, Jesus is coming for the bride alone. the others will be left behind to be further tried and grow in the Lord until they are ready to wear the white robes. A lot of pastors will be left, and some very very good people, who are very godlike in many ways, but have some...issues to work through in their heart. One can not have two masters. So it makes sense that even saved Christians would be left behind. (if if if and all that stuff)

Many seem to hold the belief that the entire church will be raptured, and due to the four levels of covenant, I see this as a possibility of it not being so if/when it turnd out to be pre-trib.

Have at it brothers and sisters. Tell me all about the levels and how you agree or disagree with my thoughts. Scripture speaks of followers and friends, and sons, and bride...

I too had to empty my head and thoughts of what I was being taught on end times and for ten years I studied scripture only comparing scripture with scripture as to what God has already spoken to us through His word. I put together an article called The Second Coming of Christ that I have on my website. In scripture I can not find any mention of a rapture, pre, post or whatever, nor can I find any scripture that speaks about some great seven year tribulation as scripture says we will have tribulation until the time of Christ return. Anyway, take a look if you want

 

[Raelyn]

[

Raelyn, there is much more than the little excerpt I posted. If you go to my website and click on Second Coming of Christ you will see my full article I have written on this subject. Everything I have studied on this is straight out of the KJV of the Bible. I never expect everyone to agree with me, but only ask that you study the scriptures for yourself apart from what others are teaching. Like I said, I use to believe in pre-trib until I did my own in-depth study of the scriptures and now believe we will be here when the seventh trumpet sounds.

I read your site
Am I to understand you believe the church took the place of Israel? If so it is understandable how you are inclined to see the Tribulation.
A study of Israel and covenants God made with them I don't believe has changed
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people( Israel)

Jews, Gentiles and the church is how I understand it.

 

[Edward]

I too had to empty my head and thoughts of what I was being taught on end times and for ten years I studied scripture only comparing scripture with scripture as to what God has already spoken to us through His word. I put together an article called The Second Coming of Christ that I have on my website. In scripture I can not find any mention of a rapture, pre, post or whatever, nor can I find any scripture that speaks about some great seven year tribulation as scripture says we will have tribulation until the time of Christ return. Anyway, take a look if you want

No clear cut scripture being there doesn't mean that it isn't though. There's a lot of inferences and admonishments to let those with ears to hear, and let the reader understand and so forth. It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter Proverbs 25:2

Every single one of those descriptions of the 2nd coming can not all be speaking of the same event. Some passages say he comes in the air, some, He comes to the earth. Others, His own will see Him, others every eye will see Him, and so forth. There's like 6 or 7 raptures in the bible? Enoch was raptured. So was Jesus. It also seems like before every big biblical event someone gets raptured. I don't have all my notes out right now, still drinking coffee, but there's something to this and it deserves a certain amount of searching out. A good thing for us all that it's non salvific.

 

[for_his_glory]

[


I read your site
Am I to understand you believe the church took the place of Israel? If so it is understandable how you are inclined to see the Tribulation.
A study of Israel and covenants God made with them I don't believe has changed
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people( Israel)

Jews, Gentiles and the church is how I understand it.

I speak not of Israel as a country or land mass, but being Jacob/Israel the man of God and we being Gentile grafted into the covenant of Abraham that makes all of us the true Church, Galatians 6:16. The church (those who have been Spiritually born-again) is the whole body of Christ as in being the Bride of Christ that Jesus will return for.

 

[for_his_glory]

No clear cut scripture being there doesn't mean that it isn't though. There's a lot of inferences and admonishments to let those with ears to hear, and let the reader understand and so forth. It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter Proverbs 25:2

Every single one of those descriptions of the 2nd coming can not all be speaking of the same event. Some passages say he comes in the air, some, He comes to the earth. Others, His own will see Him, others every eye will see Him, and so forth. There's like 6 or 7 raptures in the bible? Enoch was raptured. So was Jesus. It also seems like before every big biblical event someone gets raptured. I don't have all my notes out right now, still drinking coffee, but there's something to this and it deserves a certain amount of searching out. A good thing for us all that it's non salvific.

The two things that caught my attention that did not set well with my spirit when I was being taught of a pretrib is that the church is no longer here as they believe we are raptured out of here in Rev chapter 4, but that is speaking of the 24 Elders in the third heaven where God resides and are not the same 24 Elders here on earth. The other thing is in Matthew 24:13 where it says that those who endure until the end. I asked myself, end of what and then searched the word tribulation throughout scripture to find it meant till the harvest judgement of Rev 14:14 also spoken of in Mark 13:26,27.

 

[Edward]

The two things that caught my attention that did not set well with my spirit when I was being taught of a pretrib is that the church is no longer here as they believe we are raptured out of here in Rev chapter 4, but that is speaking of the 24 Elders in the third heaven where God resides and are not the same 24 Elders here on earth. The other thing is in Matthew 24:13 where it says that those who endure until the end. I asked myself, end of what and then searched the word tribulation throughout scripture to find it meant till the harvest judgement of Rev 14:14 also spoken of in Mark 13:26,27.

Yep. I'm with you on that. I don't want to take it on in debate form at this time though to agree or disagree with you because...I am, at this time...unqualified to do so. I am on the fence so to speak and until I can speak with conviction I must leave it alone lest I type wrong words which I do not want to do. I have yet more studying to do on this again. Along with other issues and stuff also, lol.

boy, the bible's great! A lifetime of study is there for everyone and they still wont get it all. The greatest book even written.

 

[Themessengeroftruth]

"watching for the signs of the season and keep our relationship humble and repentant" is part of the righteous life, but not nearly all of it according to what is written in the rest of Scripture from Genesis through Revelation.
'soldiers' , particularly 'righteous' soldiers, do not get entangled in the worldly affairs (gambling, intrigue, flipping houses, drugs, doing anything on purpose to disobey "work six days"(rarely understood, often not even considered)... ... ...
a living active alive believing 'soldier' , a person abiding in the active living vibrant resurrection power body of Yeshua HaMashiach, does what Yeshua does (/did). Yeshua was very active, as Abba directed Him, 'destroying the works of the devil', setting people free (from too much to go into here at the moment) , casting out demons , healing the sick, feeding the hungry(spiritually at times, physically at times, as Yhvh Abba directed = as recorded in small part in Scripture).

both the good and the bad things that believers did is written in Scripture, and what Yhvh said to do and what Yhvh said to do about it if anything.

another 'key' often missed, is how often it is written that the ecclesia lived daily in union with Abba in Yeshua and with each other, continually full of joy and of the holy spirit even through beatings, imprisonments, persecutions, etc etc etc

How can 5 have different believes of the rapture and all enter into the kingdom? If one believes to watch for his coming and the other believes as long as u except jesus u do not have to watch, there for the commandments of god is made none effect by the hypocrisy of them who does it?

Tell me how can all 5 enter into his kingdom. If one believes the rapture happened already therefore men call him a pretist and the other believes it is yet to come?

tell me how can they enter in follow if 2 of the men believe the little horn is not here while the other 2 believes the little horn is here?

And tell me follower how can all enter into heaven if 1 believes the mark of the beast is here(tho its not here yet) and the other does not believe it is there when it is there and he who did not believe took the mark of the beast saying, this is not the mark of the beast because if it was god would have raptured me already. making his damnation sure...

how can all these men enter in?

One of the 5 men god revealed his word to and the others were harden... ALL 5 of these men can not enter in with these differences concering the scriptures for i tell you one of the men is right and the other is wrong..

JUDGE FOR YOUR SELVES

 

[Willie T]

How can 5 have different believes of the rapture and all enter into the kingdom? If one believes to watch for his coming and the other believes as long as u except jesus u do not have to watch, there for the commandments of god is made none effect by the hypocrisy of them who does it?

Tell me how can all 5 enter into his kingdom. If one believes the rapture happened already therefore men call him a pretist and the other believes it is yet to come?

tell me how can they enter in follow if 2 of the men believe the little horn is not here while the other 2 believes the little horn is here?

And tell me follower how can all enter into heaven if 1 believes the mark of the beast is here(tho its not here yet) and the other does not believe it is there when it is there and he who did not believe took the mark of the beast saying, this is not the mark of the beast because if it was god would have raptured me already. making his damnation sure...

how can all these men enter in?

One of the 5 men god revealed his word to and the others were harden... ALL 5 of these men can not enter in with these differences concering the scriptures for i tell you one of the men is right and the other is wrong..

JUDGE FOR YOUR SELVES

The simple "judgment" is that all that foolishness Satan has us chasing our tails about, doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as entering the kingdom goes. Either you have entered it, or you haven't.

 

[reba]

Themessengeroftruth some things are fun. Having fun with Gods Word is a great way to learn and relearn... Not one is being disrespectful to God or His Word...Somethings are unto salvation some are not...
All of us posters believe salvation is in His blood that is not an issue we would mess around with..

 

[Raelyn]

I speak not of Israel as a country or land mass, but being Jacob/Israel the man of God and we being Gentile grafted into the covenant of Abraham that makes all of us the true Church, Galatians 6:16. The church (those who have been Spiritually born-again) is the whole body of Christ as in being the Bride of Christ that Jesus will return for.

Thank You for clarifying your views to me. Sometimes in just a few lines at a time understanding get fuzzy.

 

[follower]

And tell me follower ..........
how can all these men enter in?
One of the 5 men god revealed his word to and the others were harden... ALL 5 of these men can not enter in with these differences concering the scriptures for i tell you one of the men is right and the other is wrong.....

the one who knows perfectly when sabbath starts, has already entered in.
"Luke 4:25-27King James Version (KJV)
25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian."
King James Version (KJV)
by Public Domain

 

[for_his_glory]

Yep. I'm with you on that. I don't want to take it on in debate form at this time though to agree or disagree with you because...I am, at this time...unqualified to do so. I am on the fence so to speak and until I can speak with conviction I must leave it alone lest I type wrong words which I do not want to do. I have yet more studying to do on this again. Along with other issues and stuff also, lol.

boy, the bible's great! A lifetime of study is there for everyone and they still wont get it all. The greatest book even written.

Amen, we are ever learning and never exhausting the word of God.

 

[JLB]

[
So if you think we go through it that would be like saying quote (ok bride let me beat the living tar out of you and then lets go get married )(Thes 4 v18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words)..The Great Trib or known as Jacobs Trouble would start in the middle of the seven years. And I agree with Kathi the main thing is to be ready which is a good thing.

Jacobs Trouble was the Holocaust.

Jacob is a diaspora term.

The children of Irael are now in the promised land, and have been since 1948.

JLB

 

[Edward]

How can 5 have different believes of the rapture and all enter into the kingdom? If one believes to watch for his coming and the other believes as long as u except jesus u do not have to watch, there for the commandments of god is made none effect by the hypocrisy of them who does it?


Tell me how can all 5 enter into his kingdom. If one believes the rapture happened already therefore men call him a pretist and the other believes it is yet to come?

tell me how can they enter in follow if 2 of the men believe the little horn is not here while the other 2 believes the little horn is here?

And tell me follower how can all enter into heaven if 1 believes the mark of the beast is here(tho its not here yet) and the other does not believe it is there when it is there and he who did not believe took the mark of the beast saying, this is not the mark of the beast because if it was god would have raptured me already. making his damnation sure...

how can all these men enter in?

One of the 5 men god revealed his word to and the others were harden... ALL 5 of these men can not enter in with these differences concering the scriptures for i tell you one of the men is right and the other is wrong..

JUDGE FOR YOUR SELVES

They'll all get into heaven, just not everyone gets an invite to the marriage supper of the lamb. That's what it's about.

Themessengeroftruth...Somethings are unto salvation some are not... (Salvific)
All of us posters believe salvation is in His blood that is not an issue we would mess around with..

Exactly. This is not a salvific issue.

 

[reba]

The children of Irael are now in the promised land, and have been since 1948.

JLB

This is the land promised....

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
What are the boarders of modern day Israel?

According to Scripture

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

 

[JLB]

This is the land promised....

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
What are the boarders of modern day Israel?

According to Scripture

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Amen, the Lord gave them the land He promised to the fathers.

Are you saying that all the land of Israel today, is promised to someone else?


JLB

 

[reba]

JLB
Nope i said
This is the land promised....

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
What are the boarders of modern day Israel?

According to Scripture

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

God kept His promise God kept His part of the covenant.

Exo_19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

 

[follower]

They'll all get into heaven,...... That's what it's about.
......

..... if they get in(or are in) and remain in the ark , that is. (i.e. in Yeshua HaMashiach). Yhvh knows everything.

 

[JLB]

The Resurrection/Rapture is one event, with the Rapture occurring just a moment after the Resurrection.

The Resurrection happens for all those who are Christ's at the same time.

Once this is understood then a real study of scripture can take place.


JLB