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Raptures – Tribulation

for_his_glory said:
I use to be a pretrib person as I followed all those pretrib teachings taking them at face value, but not anymore as Christ said that those who endure until the end are those who will be saved. The end of what means the end of all abominations that cause desolation in our lives as in all the tribulations listed in Matthew 24:1-31 as they increase daily, but the end is not yet until that of vs.29-31 which happens right after that of Rev 11:11-18 up to Rev 14:14-20 and when all things are finished then that of the New heaven and New Jerusalem will be ushered down and we will be with the Lord forever.

Rev_18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
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This is a...hard to comprehend issue. I was hard core pre-trib for years until...some things came to light which caused my to throw out everything I thought I knew and start over on it and completely re-studied the whole issue for a long time, and I then concluded that pre-trib was wrong and the truth was post-trib rapture.

I was confident and settled in my heart about this. And then...without questioning, without asking, without wondering... something happened which I can not discuss, which caused me to take another fresh look at the issue. Something big. So I am once again re-researching the facts and scriptures about rapture, pre-mid, or post.

I don't like to be wrong, and I pray a lot to not be deceived, or to deceive myself. A very very good case can be made for pre-trib AND post-trib. If one is honest with themselves, when the study this, they would have to admit this. Ego aside, pride, respect for men and teachers, preconceptions...all of it, has to be set aside in order to be able to receive the truth no matter what it is, if we like it, or want this or that to be the truth. The truth is the truth and there is no other.

So in the meantime, i am living as if, the rapture could happen tonight, because I do want to be ready, i do not want to be left behind if it comes.

One big realization that I have come to recently, is....(IF) a pre-trib rapture happens...Will the entire church be taken. I don't think so. This is Jesus's Bride that he's coming for. Without blemish. Ready.

Check this out...There's four levels of relationship or covenant, correct? We have follower, we have friend, we have son, and we have bride. (poke holes in this and tell me where I'm wrong brothers and sisters)

All four levels are destined for eternal life, to be saved. Followers are saved and are of the (for lack of a better term) lukewarm types but believe. They lack the passion and works for the Lord to increase the harvest to any great extent.

The friend or (salt covenant) is higher. Friends of the Lord have more privileges than servants/followers and greater revelation and so forth, but not as much as sons or brides.

Sonship is family and with it is very much more revelation, intimacy, trust, empowerment and privileges than mere friends.

Then you have the bride. She has the most privileges than even sons do, being the wife. She is unblemished. She has total reverence and obeys...is holy and justified in every way. She knows the Lords voice and listens and is led of the Spirit always.

So if and when the pre-trib rapture happens, Jesus is coming for the bride alone. the others will be left behind to be further tried and grow in the Lord until they are ready to wear the white robes. A lot of pastors will be left, and some very very good people, who are very godlike in many ways, but have some...issues to work through in their heart. One can not have two masters. So it makes sense that even saved Christians would be left behind. (if if if and all that stuff)

Many seem to hold the belief that the entire church will be raptured, and due to the four levels of covenant, I see this as a possibility of it not being so if/when it turnd out to be pre-trib.

Have at it brothers and sisters. Tell me all about the levels and how you agree or disagree with my thoughts. Scripture speaks of followers and friends, and sons, and bride...
 
Being a born again believer in Jesus Christ is the #1 important issue here.It is not when he comes back.We all know that will happen.We have to be ready for whenever that is.
 
Kathi said:
Being a born again believer in Jesus Christ is the #1 important issue here.It is not when he comes back.We all know that will happen.We have to be ready for whenever that is.
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And being ready means...what?
Personally, I think that, after one is born again...the most important issue is...growth. I think too many Christians who become born again become complacent with the type of mindset that you describe.It's not tada I'm born again, sit down. It's tada I'm born again...what now Lord? Eh?
 
Edward said:
And being ready means...what?
Personally, I think that, after one is born again...the most important issue is...growth. I think too many Christians who become born again become complacent with the type of mindset that you describe.It's not tada I'm born again, sit down. It's tada I'm born again...what now Lord? Eh?
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Believing.Truly believing.
 
for_his_glory said:
I use to be a pretrib person as I followed all those pretrib teachings taking them at face value, but not anymore as Christ said that those who endure until the end are those who will be saved. The end of what means the end of all abominations that cause desolation in our lives as in all the tribulations listed in Matthew 24:1-31 as they increase daily, but the end is not yet until that of vs.29-31 which happens right after that of Rev 11:11-18 up to Rev 14:14-20 and when all things are finished then that of the New heaven and New Jerusalem will be ushered down and we will be with the Lord forever.

Rev_18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Click to expand...

Different positions I see. Not exactly one doctrine but that is to be expected.

Hi, if you believe other than pre-trib I will not go into a lengthly rebuttal to try to change your mind you are entitled to what you believe I agree to disagree. It will all come to pass one day. I think the bible has past, present and future meaning myself. I was just wondering if anyone else saw the parallels or made the connection. Everyone should research it throughly and this is my position I hold.
I still believe that one of the best arguments is the imminent return. According to Daniel he spelled out the days. If we are to be surprised at his coming, as in the wedding ceremony, just to be ready and when you see these things beginning to come to pass look up.
If we have to go through the tribulation and I am talking the 7 years which I believe begins when Jesus starts opening the seals, the 4 horsemen don't sound like a picnic. Is the church mentioned after he starts opening the seals? Only Tribulation saints. then the remnant which I believe is Israel.

Mat 16 v 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Then in Rev 13 v7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. What has changed? I believe these are the people that come to the Lord during the Trib. That come out of the trib.

So if you think we go through it that would be like saying quote (ok bride let me beat the living tar out of you and then lets go get married )..The Great Trib or known as Jacobs Trouble would start in the middle of the seven years. And I agree with Kathi the main thing is to be ready which is a good thing.
If we live expecting is there not a crown awaiting for us also for expecting him?
2 Tim 4:8 "Finally, there is laid up for me the CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing."

Are people saying
2 Peter 3 v4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Then there is the thought that is it our righteousness no it is his righteousness that cleanses us. We just try to keep our garments clean by keeping a close relationship.
Luke 21 v36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. I think escape is a key word here.
As far as the church goes his sheep know his voice.

Thats what I believe
 
Kathi said:
I think it will be one of the worlds most devastating incidents in the world.Of course the world will know that a bunch of people are missing.What happened to them?I don't know how they will pull that off.Some who people thought were wonderful Christians will remain.Maybe even some pastors.That will make it even more confusing for the world.Will a UFO abduction play a part?I don't know.There will be all kinds of theories.Maybe even alot of conspiracy theories.Then the antichrist will come along and he will probably have a wonderful deception.The world will say "Oh ya....that is what happened".
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Just an conjecture Kathi but,,,,,,,,
Maybe that is why it is called the Great AND Terrible Day of the Lord Great for some Terrible for others
 
footnote: perhaps if it's not, the reason that the "church" isn't mentioned is because it goes along with the world system/ against Yeshua and His followers the ecclesia. i.e. the brick and mortar type 'church' isn't faithful to Yhvh during the tribulation - only a few that are His Remnant are faithful and true. if (inconceivably) all the 'good enough' believers were whisked away before Yeshua returned to earth to rule, it looks like there wouldn't be enough(right with Scripture) for the world to even notice them missing.
 
[
So if you think we go through it that would be like saying quote (ok bride let me beat the living tar out of you and then lets go get married )(Thes 4 v18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words)..The Great Trib or known as Jacobs Trouble would start in the middle of the seven years. And I agree with Kathi the main thing is to be ready which is a good thing.
 
Raelyn said:
[
So if you think we go through it that would be like saying quote (ok bride let me beat the living tar out of you and then lets go get married )(Thes 4 v18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words)..The Great Trib or known as Jacobs Trouble would start in the middle of the seven years. And I agree with Kathi the main thing is to be ready which is a good thing.
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Except that (if there was to be a "rapture") it is not required that we get, or keep, ourselves somehow "READY". Does that mean to make ourselves "Worthy?"
How, exactly do you "be ready"?" How do you get any more "ready" than the moment you accepted Christ?

Do you guys hear yourselves? You are honestly saying that you have to do more than Christ already did to "be ready" at that anxious moment you keep waiting for.
 
follower said:
footnote: perhaps if it's not, the reason that the "church" isn't mentioned is because it goes along with the world system/ against Yeshua and His followers the ecclesia. i.e. the brick and mortar type 'church' isn't faithful to Yhvh during the tribulation - only a few that are His Remnant are faithful and true. if (inconceivably) all the 'good enough' believers were whisked away before Yeshua returned to earth to rule, it looks like there wouldn't be enough(right with Scripture) for the world to even notice them missing.
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I think the letters to the churches explain who will and who wont go through the tribulation and are warnings of what not to do and are ashamed doing when he appears. Yeshua also said John 6 v39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Dont think he will loose any
 
Willie T said:
Except that (if there was to be a "rapture") it is not required that we get, or keep, ourselves somehow "READY". Does that mean to make ourselves "Worthy?"
How, exactly do you "be ready"?" How do you get any more "ready" than the moment you accepted Christ?

Do you guys hear yourselves? You are honestly saying that you have to do more than Christ already did to "be ready" at that anxious moment you keep waiting for.
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No not more we cant its excepting him as (born of the spirit) confessing Jesus as the only way. Only his righousness that has made us child of God Its still a gift. Faith in him and not letting that Love grow luke warm, keep it as when you first believed The letters to the churches explains and some of those things described in the letters might would hinder us going in the rapture. But depending on peoples view of the rapture or catching up compared to the coming in power and glory are two separate events to me. Now if you do not believe that that is your belief. He wont loose true believers. We may die in this body but hey. I need a new one
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
We are also sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Many people that say they are christians are not. We all know that.
If we watch for the signs of the season and keep our relationship humble and repentant that keeps us pretty ready I would say
Besides if you read in the letters some of the things they were doing it was pretty bad things. They needed repenting from.
I think being in this forum for many means they love the Lord or want more that hunger is a good thing . I think the pulpit is failing these these days when they don't address the hard issues that are cropping up all around us, its up to the individual to seek and that is not a request but a command and the door will be open. I takes time out your day too.
 
Willie T said:
Except that (if there was to be a "rapture") it is not required that we get, or keep, ourselves somehow "READY". Does that mean to make ourselves "Worthy?"
How, exactly do you "be ready"?" How do you get any more "ready" than the moment you accepted Christ?

Do you guys hear yourselves? You are honestly saying that you have to do more than Christ already did to "be ready" at that anxious moment you keep waiting for.
Click to expand...
The question is how does your view of the rapture effect you walk with the Lord. If i helps great, And do you think we are in the end times.
 
"watching for the signs of the season and keep our relationship humble and repentant" is part of the righteous life, but not nearly all of it according to what is written in the rest of Scripture from Genesis through Revelation.
'soldiers' , particularly 'righteous' soldiers, do not get entangled in the worldly affairs (gambling, intrigue, flipping houses, drugs, doing anything on purpose to disobey "work six days"(rarely understood, often not even considered)... ... ...
a living active alive believing 'soldier' , a person abiding in the active living vibrant resurrection power body of Yeshua HaMashiach, does what Yeshua does (/did). Yeshua was very active, as Abba directed Him, 'destroying the works of the devil', setting people free (from too much to go into here at the moment) , casting out demons , healing the sick, feeding the hungry(spiritually at times, physically at times, as Yhvh Abba directed = as recorded in small part in Scripture).

both the good and the bad things that believers did is written in Scripture, and what Yhvh said to do and what Yhvh said to do about it if anything.

another 'key' often missed, is how often it is written that the ecclesia lived daily in union with Abba in Yeshua and with each other, continually full of joy and of the holy spirit even through beatings, imprisonments, persecutions, etc etc etc
 
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