Raptures – Tribulation

[follower]

The Resurrection/Rapture is one event, with the Rapture occurring just a moment after the Resurrection.
The Resurrection happens for all those who are Christ's at the same time.
Once this is understood then a real study of scripture can take place.
JLB

True.
But 'what if' my church won't let me ? ('What if' the church i belong to and have trusted for 25 years won't talk to me if i believe the simple truth? 'If that's the case' , can i trust other things my church has taught ?)

 

[Willie T]

True.
But 'what if' my church won't let me ? ('What if' the church i belong to and have trusted for 25 years won't talk to me if i believe the simple truth? 'If that's the case' , can i trust other things my church has taught ?)

I think you just answered your own question.

 

[JLB]

True.
But 'what if' my church won't let me ? ('What if' the church i belong to and have trusted for 25 years won't talk to me if i believe the simple truth? 'If that's the case' , can i trust other things my church has taught ?)

That's why your here discussing these things.


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB
Nope i said
This is the land promised....

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
What are the boarders of modern day Israel?

According to Scripture

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

God kept His promise God kept His part of the covenant.

Exo_19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

As I said, they returned in 1948 to the land of Promise and are no longer referred to as Jacob, which is a Diaspora term.

Jacob's trouble was the Holocaust.


JLB

 

[follower]

That's why your here discussing these things.
JLB

I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. No, that's not why I'm here discussing these things.
Those questions were to see an answer, if possible, for those who are here who are in attendance in a church like that.

 

[reba]

the borders of the Promised land are not the borders of todays Israel...
IMO Israel does not need land or boarders to be a nation... They were a nation while in Babylon...a nation while under Roman rule.. etc

 

[jasonc]

As I said, they returned in 1948 to the land of Promise and are no longer referred to as Jacob, which is a Diaspora term.

Jacob's trouble was the Holocaust.


JLB

the shoah, Only affected the jews in Europa.my family under my surname lost NONE there.at the time of the shoah, .

besides if that is the worst suffering man has well we have had worse holocaust since. to to the tune of ten times that amount. ie china!

 

[JLB]

the shoah, Only affected the jews in Europa.my family under my surname lost NONE there.at the time of the shoah, .

besides if that is the worst suffering man has well we have had worse holocaust since. to to the tune of ten times that amount. ie china!

Is China referred to as Jacob?


JLB

 

[Edward]

True.
But 'what if' my church won't let me ? ('What if' the church i belong to and have trusted for 25 years won't talk to me if i believe the simple truth? 'If that's the case' , can i trust other things my church has taught ?)

You can't trust anything that anyone says brother, even if they have good intent and are otherwise respectable, they can still make a mistake. We have to do our own homework!

 

[Edward]

..... if they get in(or are in) and remain in the ark , that is. (i.e. in Yeshua HaMashiach). Yhvh knows everything.

Yes, and dependent on which is the truth (pre or post)...it's not that they aren't all saved, but not all will get to attend the marriage supper, just the bride. I'm pretty sure...

 

[Brother Mike]

[Good studyE="JLB, post: 988414, member: 2772"]The Resurrection/Rapture is one event, with the Rapture occurring just a moment after the Resurrection.

The Resurrection happens for all those who are Christ's at the same time.

Once this is understood then a real study of scripture can take place.


JLB[/QUOTE]

Good study, some get the timing wrong. Right JLB?

 

[jasonc]

Is China referred to as Jacob?


JLB

is askenazi and shepardic and also yeminite are in the levant? if so show me the locations of that name. don't bother its Germany, spain, Italy and yemen.none of those WERE Taken from isreal.
stalin killed 30 million.
mao 90 million.

the idea is that the WORLD WOULDNT SEE THAT SUFFERING again. yet within a decade mao did his evil and stalin add up to the total of purges before ww2 and after to 30 million

not all of the deaths in the shoah were jews. some Christians, gays, the eldery, mentally challenged and gyspies. that total approaches to 11 million I believe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

The number of victims depends on which definition of "the Holocaust" is used. Donald Niewyk and Francis Nicosia write in The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust that the term is commonly defined as the mass murder of more than five million European Jews.[285] They further state that 'Not everyone finds this a fully satisfactory definition.'[286] According to British historian Martin Gilbert, the total number of victims is just under six million—around 78 percent of the 7.3 million Jews in occupied Europe at the time.[287] Timothy D. Snyder wrote that "The term Holocaust is sometimes used in two other ways: to mean all German killing policies during the war, or to mean all oppression of Jews by the Nazi regime."[288]
Broader definitions include the two to three million Soviet POWs who died as a result of mistreatment due to Nazi racial policies, two million non-Jewish ethnic Poles who died due to the conditions of Nazi occupation, 90,000-220,000 Romani, 270,000 mentally and physically disabled killed in Germany's eugenics program, 80,000–200,000 Freemasons, 20,000–25,000 Slovenes, 5,000–15,000 homosexuals, 2,500–5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses and 7,000 Spanish Republicans, bringing the death toll to around 11 million. The broadest definition would include six million Soviet civilians who died as a result of war-related famine and disease, raising the death toll to 17 million.[285] A research project conducted by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum estimated that 15 to 20 million people died or were imprisoned.[9] R.J. Rummel estimates the total democide death toll of Nazi Germany to be 21 million.

6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

Jeremiah 30:6,7

how one earth do you thank would be worst for the world when it fact more died in china? at the most it doesn't hit one third of the amount mao killed.

im not a futurist but man that is stretch if one believe that Jacob trouble is that. notice the link said ONLY European jews? which would be Ashkenazim and Sephardic.

and im an Ashkenazim, so are most of the entire jewish population in America. as that is where we came from. 1/3 of all jews in the word died in that. its bad but well the way the futurist describes the trib, it will be worse then that.

 

[JLB]

is askenazi and shepardic and also yeminite are in the levant? if so show me the locations of that name. don't bother its Germany, spain, Italy and yemen.none of those WERE Taken from isreal.
stalin killed 30 million.
mao 90 million.

the idea is that the WORLD WOULDNT SEE THAT SUFFERING again. yet within a decade mao did his evil and stalin add up to the total of purges before ww2 and after to 30 million

not all of the deaths in the shoah were jews. some Christians, gays, the eldery, mentally challenged and gyspies. that total approaches to 11 million I believe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust





Jeremiah 30:6,7

how one earth do you thank would be worst for the world when it fact more died in china? at the most it doesn't hit one third of the amount mao killed.

im not a futurist but man that is stretch if one believe that Jacob trouble is that. notice the link said ONLY European jews? which would be Ashkenazim and Sephardic.

and im an Ashkenazim, so are most of the entire jewish population in America. as that is where we came from. 1/3 of all jews in the word died in that. its bad but well the way the futurist describes the trib, it will be worse then that.

No stretch to it.

Jacob is a Diaspora term.

They are back in land, so that name would not apply to them today.

6 Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale?

Men doubled over in the gas chambers, naked with their hands on their loins, faces pale...

8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the Lord of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.


His yoke describes one man: Hitler.

10 'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the Lord, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.


I will save you from afar... Jacob shall return....

This speaks of a Diaspora Jew returning home.


No stretch, just fact.


JLB

 

[follower]

You can't trust anything that anyone says brother, even if they have good intent and are otherwise respectable, they can still make a mistake. We have to do our own homework!

yes, yeah (yay?) and amen - that is right, it is so. "test everything" and pray constantly.

 

[ezrider]

Jacobs Trouble was the Holocaust.

Jacob is a diaspora term.

The children of Irael are now in the promised land, and have been since 1948.

JLB

The time of Jacob's trouble was NOT the Holocaust. The time of Jacob's trouble was fulfilled at the time of the birth of Christ when Herod had all the children slaughtered, yet Jesus escaped to Egypt.

Jer 30:6-7
Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child?
wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail,
and all faces are turned into paleness?
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it:
it is even the time of Jacob's trouble;
but he shall be saved out of it.

Matt 2:16-18 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Jer 31:15-17
Thus saith the Lord;
A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation, and bitter weeping;
Rachel weeping for her children
refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Thus saith the Lord;
Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears:
for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord;
and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord,
that thy children shall come again to their own border.

When you take time to think about it, the children were all cut off, thus leaving the people that remained alive as the final generation born before the birth of Christ and under the old covenant. It gives a little perspective to the term last generation.

 

[Deborah13]

The time of Jacob's trouble was NOT the Holocaust. The time of Jacob's trouble was fulfilled at the time of the birth of Christ when Herod had all the children slaughtered, yet Jesus escaped to Egypt.

Jer 30:6-7
Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child?
wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail,
and all faces are turned into paleness?
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it:
it is even the time of Jacob's trouble;
but he shall be saved out of it.

Matt 2:16-18 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Jer 31:15-17
Thus saith the Lord;
A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation, and bitter weeping;
Rachel weeping for her children
refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
Thus saith the Lord;
Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears:
for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord;
and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord,
that thy children shall come again to their own border.

When you take time to think about it, the children were all cut off, thus leaving the people that remained alive as the final generation born before the birth of Christ and under the old covenant. It gives a little perspective to the term last generation.

The boys, two years and under were killed by Herod.

 

[Deborah13]

No stretch to it.

Jacob is a Diaspora term.

They are back in land, so that name would not apply to them today.

6 Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale?

Men doubled over in the gas chambers, naked with their hands on their loins, faces pale...

8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the Lord of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.


His yoke describes one man: Hitler.

10 'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the Lord, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.


I will save you from afar... Jacob shall return....

This speaks of a Diaspora Jew returning home.


No stretch, just fact.


JLB

If the fig tree budding is Israel in 1948 who were/are the other trees that budded in 1948?

 

[reba]

Israel today is not the land of promise.

God set boarders for Abraham who is man kind to decide the boarders of God's promise are changed...
I believe the Israeli people have right to the land they agreed to with the British Government et. This deal was worked out over about 50 years..
I believe the USA should be in strong support of Israel .
my beliefs do not make the Israel of today the land God promised.

 

[follower]

whether or not or where the land of promise is,
the Jews today are directly under the Promise of Yhvh to Abraham "whoever blesses you I will bless. whoever harms you I curse."
and this will be dramatically seen shortly, just before Israel is totally run over , as they call upon the Name of Adonai, just as they did when He entered Yerusalem riding on a donkey,
and He delivers them , at the very last possible moment,
and in an instant, all the enemy and weapons surrounding Israel burst into flame when He opens His mouth. (silently, i think, in sheer and total control and showing simply for all the world how easy it is for Adonai to do as He pleases against an army that numbers in the million(s) ).

 

[Raelyn]

No clear cut scripture being there doesn't mean that it isn't though. There's a lot of inferences and admonishments to let those with ears to hear, and let the reader understand and so forth. It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter Proverbs 25:2

Every single one of those descriptions of the 2nd coming can not all be speaking of the same event. Some passages say he comes in the air, some, He comes to the earth. Others, His own will see Him, others every eye will see Him, and so forth. There's like 6 or 7 raptures in the bible? Enoch was raptured. So was Jesus. It also seems like before every big biblical event someone gets raptured. I don't have all my notes out right now, still drinking coffee, but there's something to this and it deserves a certain amount of searching out. A good thing for us all that it's non salvific.

LOL That was funny
Here are the chapter and verses
Examine them if you would like to and tell me what you think about it if not thats ok too. Very interesting
I realize there are different theories.

Rapture & Second Coming Passages

Rapture

Jn 14:1-3
Rom 8:19
1 Cor 1:7-8
1 Cor 15:1-53
1 Cor 16:22
Phil 3:20-21
Col 3:4
1 Thess 1:10
1 Thess 2:19
1 Thess 4:13-18 1 Thess 5:9
1 Thess 5:23
2 Thess 2:1 (3?) 1 Tim 6:14
2 Tim 4:1
Titus 2:13
Heb 9:28
Jas 5:7-9
1 Pet 1:7, 13
1 Jn 2:28-3:2 Jude 21
Rev 2:25
Rev 3:10


Second Coming
Dan 2:44-45 Dan 7:9-14 Dan 12:1-3 Zech 14:1-15 Mt 13:41

Mt 24:15-31 Mt 26:64
Mk 13:14-27 Mk 14:62

Lk 21:25-28 Acts 1:9-11 Acts 3:19-21
1 Thess 3:13
2 Thess 1:6-10 2 Thess 2:8

2 Pet 3:1-14 Jude 14-15
Rev 1:7
Rev 19:11-20:6 Rev 22:7, 12, 20