The gift of tongues.

[Stan53]

...somebody forgot to tell Stephen.

Apparently not only Stephen! ;)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

...somebody forgot to tell Stephen.

The bible does not say Jesus promised the Comforter to Stephen. Jn 14:26 Jesus was speaking to His APOSTLES. In Acts 1:4 Jesus told His APOSTLES to " wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me." The Comforter was the promise of the Father which the APOSTLES received in Acts 2:1-4 cf verse 33.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The CONTEXT is believers in Christ who did not believe those other believers that HAD seen Jesus post resurrection. I'm afraid you have this all wrong. The text in Mark 16:14, reads, 14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
Not quite what you are trying to imply Ernest. The Eleven believed in Jesus, just not in the eye sight of those who had seen Him before them.
v15; He said to them,(the Eleven) “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
v16; Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
v17-18; And these signs will accompany those who believe(1st word in v16): In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
v19-20; 19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed His Word by the signs that accompanied it.(His Word)

Signs still accompany Jesus' Word today. They were never meant to stop.

2 Cor 2:12; I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles.
Paul was following up his thought in v11, where he states; I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing.
The context of v12, is based on what he said in verse 11 and goes on to finish that thought in v13. Paul was defending who he was in Christ.
1 Cor 12:29-30; Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. And yet I will show you the most excellent way.
Paul is stating a fact here, not ALL believers are given ALL the manifestations and gifts of the Holy Spirit. He is NOT talking about the same thing as 2 Cor 12 or Mark 16:17-18.

Properly exegeted, scripture does show that the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit have been in the Church since Acts 2. There is NOTHING in scripture that indicates otherwise. I would challenge you, or anyone, to produce at least one scripture that definitively indicates your assertion that the Holy Spirit no longer functions or should function the way the NT shows they do.

Untangling what you did to Mk 16, in that context it was the apostles who were the unbelievers.

v11 "And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not."

v13 "And they went and told [it] unto the residue: neither believed they them."

v14 "Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. "

After upbraiding the apostles for their unbelief, Jesus gives them the great commission in verse 15 and 16.

Verse 17 signs shall follow them that believe. The nearest plural antecedant is "the eleven" in v14. In verse 17-20 the plural pronouns 'they' and 'them' refer to the eleven...

v19 "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them (apostles), he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God."

v20 " And they (apostles) went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them](apostles), and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

The context does not allow for your theory.

Reading this context as you would have us, then ALL who believe would have ALL those signs listed for the context does not make for any exceptions. Yet Paul said in 1 Cor 12:29,30 not ALL believers had ALL those signs, some believers had no ability to perform any sign at all. But ALL the apostles had ALL those signs following.


2 Cor 12:12 calls then signs of an APOSTLE not signs of a believer.

Paul clearly teaches in Eph 4 and 1 Cor 13 those signs would cease, vanish away when God's word was perfectly/completely revealed which it was by about 95 AD.

Ephesians 4

In Eph 4:8 "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

So when Christ ascended He gave gifts unto men, He gave His apostles the Comforter (Acts 1:1-5) and ability to perform miracles (Matthew 10) and the apostles could lay hands upon another and pass on a gift, but that person could not pass on that gift to another.

What was the purpose of these gifts?

Eph 4:12 "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"


How long were these gifts meant to last?

Eph 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith,..."


"Till" is a time limiting word, these gifts would last till they fulfilled their purpose.

"Unity" means a oneness or wholeness.

"the faith" refers to the NT gospel system of faith found from Matthew to Revelation. As in Gal 1:23 Paul is said to preach "the faith", Jude said to contend for "the fatih".


So these gifts would last till there was a oneness/wholeness of that NT system of faith, a wholeness/completeness/perfection of the NT from Matthew to Revelation. That NT system of faith was competely revealed/made whole/made complete/made perfect by the end of the first century. So by the end of the first century those signs would begin to 'vanish away', cease as Paul says in 1 Cor 13. When all the apostles died, and those whom they gave gifts to died, then those gifts ceased, vanished away.


________________________ ________________________ ________________________ __________________

1 Corinthans 13

The following is the best explanation I have read on 1 Cor 13, far better than any explanation I could give: (my emp)


Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation
by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

http://www.apologeticspress.com/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=264

These observations bring us to a third extremely critical realization: once God revealed the entirety of the information that He wished to make available to mankind (later contained in what we call the New Testament), the need for miraculous confirmation of the oral Word came to an end. Now, people can sit down with a New Testament and, with honest and diligent study, conclude that it is God’s Word. Since the purpose of miracles has once and forever been achieved, the miracles, themselves, have ceased. I repeat: the Bible teaches that miracles are no longer necessary. Spiritual maturity is now within the grasp of every single individual who chooses to access the means to maturity—the written Word of God.

In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul argued that love is a more excellent attribute than miraculous gifts. After all, miraculous gifts (i.e., prophecy, tongue-speaking, supernatural knowledge, etc.) were going to fail, vanish, cease, and be done away (13:8). These gifts are identified in the text with the expression “in part” (13:9-10). The “in part,” or miraculous, would cease when the “perfect” had come. But to what does the “perfect” refer?

The Greek word translated “perfect” is teleios. The term does not refer to “perfect” in the sense typically understood by the modern English reader, i.e., to be sinless. Following this faulty notion, some have concluded that the “perfect” refers to Jesus—since He has been the only perfect person. Other interpretations apply “perfect” to heaven (the only perfect place), or Christian maturity and perfect love (the perfect condition or quality). But, in context, Paul was not contrasting qualities or places. He was contrasting quantities, i.e., those things that were incomplete and partial (miraculous gifts) with that which would be total and complete (the fully revealed Word of God). The inaccuracy of these interpretations is seen further in the Greek definition of teleios. The word refers to totality, that which is whole, brought to its end, finished, and lacking nothing necessary to completeness (Delling, 1972, 8:73; Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 816; Thayer, 1901, p. 618). Used in its neuter form, Paul was referring to a thing—not a person—something that, when completed or finished, would replace the incomplete or partial, i.e., the miraculous gifts—which had only temporary significance. Commenting on the abolition of the miraculous gifts of prophecy and supernatural knowledge (mentioned in vss. 8 and 9), W.R. Nicoll correctly observed that “these charisms are partial in scope, and therefore temporary: the fragmentary gives place to the complete” (1900, 2:900, emp. added). Kenneth Wuest agreed: “In I Corinthians 13:10, the word means ‘complete,’ and is contrasted to that which is incomplete” (1943, pp. 117-118). The exegete is forced to conclude that Paul’s use of “perfect” referred to the completed revelation or totally revealed New Testament Scriptures. The revelation of God’s will was completed in its entirety when the final book of the New Testament, Revelation, was written by John prior to A.D. 100.

Paul offered a useful illustration to clarify his point. When the church possessed only small bits and pieces of God’s will, as revealed through scattered miraculous gifts and the gradual production, between approximately A.D. 57 and A.D. 95, of the written documents from the inspired writers of the New Testament, it could not achieve full spiritual maturity. It therefore was like a child (13:11). It lacked the necessary elements to reach spiritual adulthood. However, when the totality of God’s will, which became the New Testament, had been revealed, the church then had the means available to become “a man” (13:11). Once the church had access to all of God’s written Word, the means by which the Word was given (i.e., miraculous gifts) would be obsolete, useless, and therefore “put away” (13:11). Notice that Paul likened miracles to “childish things” (13:11). In other words, miracles were the spiritual equivalents of pacifiers that were necessary while the church was in a state of infancy. Since we now have access to “all truth” (John 16:13), the use of tongue-speaking and other miraculous enhancements in the church today would be comparable to an adult man or woman who continued to use a pacifier!

Paul then explained his point by comparing the initial necessity of miracles to reveal and confirm God’s Word, with the idea of looking through a clouded mirror (see Workman, 1983, p. 8). Once the entire contents of the New Testament had been revealed, the miraculous gifts no longer would be necessary. Having all of God’s revealed Word would enable one to be face to face with that Word, rather than “looking through a clouded mirror,” i.e., having partial access. Paul wrote (13:11):

Now I know in part [i.e., my knowledge of God’s revelation is incomplete and partial due to limited access via the miraculous element—DM], but then [i.e., when all of God’s Word is finally revealed—DM] shall I know fully, even as also I was fully known [i.e., I shall be made to know or taught thoroughly (which is the figure of speech known as heterosis of the verb in which the intransitive is put for the transitive—see Bullinger, 1898, p. 512)—DM].

REFERENCES

Arndt, William and F.W. Gingrich (1957), A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press).

Blass, F., A. Debrunner, and Robert Funk (1961), A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press).

Bullinger, E.W. (1898), Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1968 reprint).

Conzelmann, Hans (1974), “charismata,” Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. G. Kittel and G. Friedrich (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans).

Dana, H.E. and Julius Mantey (1927), A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (Toronto, Canada: Macmillan).

Delling, Gerhard (1972), Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. Gerhard Friedrich (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans).

Hofius, Otfried (1976), “Miracle,” The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, ed. Colin Brown (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan).

Jamieson, R., A.R. Fausset, and D. Brown (no date), A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan).

Machen, J. Gresham (1923), New Testament Greek for Beginners (Toronto, Canada: Macmillan).

McGarvey, J.W. (1910), Biblical Criticism (Cincinnati, OH: Standard).

Moule, C.F.D. (1959), An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek (Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press, 1977 reprint).

Moulton, W.F., A.S. Geden, and H.K. Moulton (1978), A Concordance to the Greek Testament (Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark), fifth edition.

Moulton, James and George Milligan (1982 reprint), Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament Illustrated from the Papyri and Other Non-literary Sources (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans).

Nicoll, W. Robertson, ed. (1900), The Expositor’s Greek Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdms).

Robertson, A.T. (1934), A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press).

Thayer, J.H. (1901), Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1977 reprint).

Vincent, M.R. (1890), Word Studies in the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1946 reprint).

Vine, W.E. (1952), An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (Old Tappan, NJ: Revell).

Warren, Thomas B. (1972), Have Atheists Proved There Is No God (Jonesboro, AR: National Christian Press).

Williams, George (1960), The Student’s Commentary on the Holy Scriptures (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel), sixth edition.

Workman, Gary (1983), “That Which Is Perfect,” The Restorer, 3[9]:6-9, September.

Wuest, Kenneth (1943), Treasures from the Greek New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans).

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[Ernest T. Bass]

continued,,,,



Miraculous Gifts: Their Purpose and Method of Reception

What was the purpose of miracles in the ministry of Christ, or in the apostolic age? As noted above, their design must be consistent with the lofty theme of redemption.

Of the early disciples who were endowed with spiritual gifts, Mark declares:

And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed (Mark 16:20).
​

The function of the signs was to confirm the revelatory process, i.e., the word of truth being communicated from God to man.
The writer of Hebrews argues similarly. He declares that the message regarding the “great salvation,” which at the first had been

spoken through the Lord, was confirmed unto us by them that heard; God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will (2:3-4).
​

Of special interest in these passages is the term “confirm” (Grk. bebaioo). The word denotes evidence that establishes the validity of the divinely-given word (Brown 1975, 658). The supernatural gifts of the primitive age, therefore, had as their design the establishment of the credibility of Christ and his spokesmen, and so ultimately, the validation of their message, namely, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior of the world!

Now observe this very important point. If it can be established that those early miracles do corroborate the testimony of Christ, and those commissioned by him; and further, that the recording of these events in the New Testament was designed to perpetually accomplish that function, then it stands as demonstrated that the repetition of such signs is not needed today.

The fact is, that is exactly what is affirmed by the apostle John. He declares that the “signs” of Christ, which he records in his gospel account, “are written [gegraptai—perfect tense, abiding effect] that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31).

A.T. Robertson notes that this book “has had precisely this effect of continuous and successive confirmation of faith in Jesus Christ through the ages” (Robertson 1932, 317). Even those who claim that God is working miracles today, when asked if they believe that the recorded miracles of Christ in the New Testament are sufficient to establish faith in him, will answer affirmatively.

It ought to be abundantly clear, therefore, that since the miracles of the Bible continue to accomplish their original purpose, there is no need for a repetition of them today. They are not being replicated in this age!

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/5-miracles

"Miracles"
Wayne Jackson
(my emp)


Sources/Footnotes

• Abbott-Smith, G. 1923. A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament. Edinburgh, Scotland: T.&T. Clark.
• Arndt, William and Gingrich, F.W. 1967. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. Chicago, IL: University of Chicago.
• Brown, Colin, ed. 1975. Dictionary of New Testament Theology. Vol. 1. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
• Ellicott, C. J. 1978. Critical and Grammatical Commentary on Ephesians. Minneapolis, MN: James Family Publishing.
• Fisher, George P. 1900. Manual of Christian Evidences. New York, NY: Charles Scribner’s Sons.
• Green, Samuel. 1907. Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament. London, England: Religious Tract Society.
• Horne, Thomas H. 1841. A Critical Introduction to the Holy Scriptures. Vol. 1. Philadelphia, PA: Whetham & Son.
• Kittel, Gerhard, ed. 1972. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Vol. 8. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
• MacKnight, James. 1954. Apostolical Epistles. Nashville, TN: Gospel Advocate.
• Meyer, H. A. W. 1879. Corinthians. Vol. 1. Edinburgh, Scotland: T. & T. Clark.
• Psychology Today. 1989. January/February.
• Randi, James. 1987. The Faith-Healers. Buffalo, NY: Prometheus.
• Robertson, A. T. 1932. Word Pictures in the New Testament. Vol. 5. Nashville, TN: Broadman.
• Sadler, William S. 1929. The Truth About Mind Cure. London, England: George Allen & Unwin.
• The Analytical Greek Lexicon. n.d. New York, NT: Harper & Bros.
• Vine, W. E. 1951. 1st Corinthians – Local Church Problems. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

------------------------------------------------
To insist miracles are still needed today is to say that God's word, which contains those recorded miracles, cannot induce a belief in people today, which is simply not the case.

 

[John O]

continued,,,,

It ought to be abundantly clear, therefore, that since the miracles of the Bible continue to accomplish their original purpose, there is no need for a repetition of them today. They are not being replicated in this age!

I wonder if God could do them for no other reason that as Father God he loves to bless His children for no other reason than because He can. Are they necessary -No are they greatfully received You Bet.

I most certainly am not going to tell God He is not allowed to do them.

John O

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I wonder if God could do them for no other reason that as Father God he loves to bless His children for no other reason than because He can. Are they necessary -No are they greatfully received You Bet.

I most certainly am not going to tell God He is not allowed to do them.

John O

Paul's point in Eph 4 and 1 Cor 13 is the signs vanished away, ceased when they accomplished their purpose in bringing about the completed revelation of God. I for one do not deny Paul's words or John's recording of those miracles.

 

[Stan53]

Untangling what you did to Mk 16, in that context it was the apostles who were the unbelievers.

v11 "And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not."

v13 "And they went and told [it] unto the residue: neither believed they them."

v14 "Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. "

After upbraiding the apostles for their unbelief, Jesus gives them the great commission in verse 15 and 16.

Verse 17 signs shall follow them that believe. The nearest plural antecedant is "the eleven" in v14. In verse 17-20 the plural pronouns 'they' and 'them' refer to the eleven...

v19 "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them (apostles), he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God."

v20 " And they (apostles) went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them](apostles), and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

The context does not allow for your theory.

Ernie, it NOT a theory, it's called exegesis.
The following are 3 modern and accurate translations. These 3 versions clearly show what the disciples didn't believe, which was what Mary Magdalene told them in v10 that she saw.
v11; When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it. (NIV)
v11; When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it. (NASB)
v11; Yet, when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe it. (HSCB)

What I did was actually show the proper English translation and the proper context. What you have done, twice now, is obscure the truth of these scriptures.
Even in the KJV which you use, the thing they believed not was the part that states, "when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her"
They either didn't believe her account or didn't believe Jesus was risen. To try to justify your opinion by saying that these scriptures indicate they LOST their faith, is disengenuous to say the least.
Again in v14 in the KJV, what Jesus upbraided the Eleven for clearly states in the verse, "because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. " It was lack of belief in the witnesses, NOT faith in Jesus.
You can state your assertion 1000 times, but it doesn't make it correct. It only shows how you eisegete scripture, instead of properly exegeting it.
I see no reason to address any more of the scriptures you have improperly opined on.
I also don't agree with the article you've quoted on 1 Cor 13, but as it takes us OFF topic I won't bother to say more.

I stand by my previous exegesis and again you have NOT provided ANY properly exegeted scripture that supports your view of tongues not being for today's body.

 

[Stan53]

continued,,,,
To insist miracles are still needed today is to say that God's word, which contains those recorded miracles, cannot induce a belief in people today, which is simply not the case.

Again OPINION, no FACTS or scripture that supports this man's premise. His deductions have no anchor in scripture. If God is still performing miracles and signs and wonders today, then quite obviously his assumptions are wrong.

I am interested though as to when the gifts and signs ostensibly ended? Was it before all the scriptures we have became a Bible, or after?

What about the last part of Mark 16:20, where it is written; And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. (NASB)

If the proclamation never ends, then neither do the signs and wonders.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernie, it NOT a theory, it's called exegesis.
The following are 3 modern and accurate translations. These 3 versions clearly show what the disciples didn't believe, which was what Mary Magdalene told them in v10 that she saw.
v11; When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it. (NIV)
v11; When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it. (NASB)
v11; Yet, when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe it. (HSCB)

What I did was actually show the proper English translation and the proper context. What you have done, twice now, is obscure the truth of these scriptures.
Even in the KJV which you use, the thing they believed not was the part that states, "when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her"
They either didn't believe her account or didn't believe Jesus was risen. To try to justify your opinion by saying that these scriptures indicate they LOST their faith, is disengenuous to say the least.
Again in v14 in the KJV, what Jesus upbraided the Eleven for clearly states in the verse, "because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. " It was lack of belief in the witnesses, NOT faith in Jesus.
You can state your assertion 1000 times, but it doesn't make it correct. It only shows how you eisegete scripture, instead of properly exegeting it.
I see no reason to address any more of the scriptures you have improperly opined on.
I also don't agree with the article you've quoted on 1 Cor 13, but as it takes us OFF topic I won't bother to say more.

I stand by my previous exegesis and again you have NOT provided ANY properly exegeted scripture that supports your view of tongues not being for today's body.

You put "it" in bold three times above when 'it' is not the issue. Your 'exegesis" is flawed and is avoiding the plain language of the text.

Again, who in the immediate context are the unbelievers? APOSTLES

Who then would need to believe to have signs following? APOSTLES

Who does the plural pronoun 'they' and 'them' in vs 17-20 refer to? Not a singular 'he' but the plural "the eleven"

Verse 19 "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them" Who is the 'them' the Lord had been speaking to? APOSTLES

Verse 20 " And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen"

The 'they' and 'them' in v20 refers to the same 'them' in 19 that the Lord was speaking to, that is the APOSTLES. So it was the APOSTLES the Lord was working with confirming the word with signs.

Your 'exegesis' has not explained why Paul would call these 'signs of an APOSTLE' 2 Cor 12:12 and not 'signs of a believer' if the signs were meant for all who believe.

Your 'exegesis' fails for it would have ALL who believe to have ALL those signs yet it has been shown you that all who beleive did not have ALL signs. Some who believed had NO signs at all.

I can only repeat the facts the context gives.

I gave you at least three contexts in my last post that prove miracles are not for today, but have ceased. You have not shown a single context that promises anyone today they would be given signs to perform.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Again OPINION, no FACTS or scripture that supports this man's premise. His deductions have no anchor in scripture. If God is still performing miracles and signs and wonders today, then quite obviously his assumptions are wrong.

I am interested though as to when the gifts and signs ostensibly ended? Was it before all the scriptures we have became a Bible, or after?

What about the last part of Mark 16:20, where it is written; And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. (NASB)

If the proclamation never ends, then neither do the signs and wonders.

What John said makes it fact. You must not have read what was said about John recording Christ's miracles. (Sorry, I know my posts were long but I wanted to get in all the facts and details).

John wrote down some of the signs Christ performed. He said these signs "are written" that you might beleive that Jesus is the Christ, Jn 20:31. The perfect tense shows that those written down signs have a continuing, perpetual ability to induce a belief in people. Meaning those signs can induce a belief in people today as they did 2,000+ years ago. So those signs that were done 2000 years ago were written down where they perpetually confirm the word inducing a beleif in people. So there is no need for signs today when those written down signs performed by Christ still continue to confirm the word and induce belief in people.

So to suggest signs are still needed today is to deny what John was saying and is suggesting those signs John wrote down failed to accomplish their purpose.

 

[Stan53]

You put "it" in bold three times above when 'it' is not the issue. Your 'exegesis" is flawed and is avoiding the plain language of the text.

Actually that is why you are wrong. IT, is the issue. IT refers to what the context is. IT is Mary's statement about Jesus being risen. IT is about the Eleven not believing HER.
Like I said, IT is so obvious and yet you ignore IT.
I really can't continue this with you
Moving on.

 

[Stan53]

John wrote down some of the signs Christ performed. He said these signs "are written" that you might beleive that Jesus is the Christ, Jn 20:31. The perfect tense shows that those written down signs have a continuing, perpetual ability to induce a belief in people. Meaning those signs can induce a belief in people today as they did 2,000+ years ago. So those signs that were done 2000 years ago were written down where they perpetually confirm the word inducing a beleif in people. So there is no need for signs today when those written down signs performed by Christ still continue to confirm the word and induce belief in people.
So to suggest signs are still needed today is to deny what John was saying and is suggesting those signs John wrote down failed to accomplish their purpose.

I have no doubt that John's statement is the simple fact that he states and has no hidden meaning for the future. The Greek word for 'have' is echō, and is a verb being used in the present tense along with the context of this passage.
Take a look at v29, where Jesus says;“Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
This statement is also not to be used to contradict what Jesus said in John 6:44;
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Finally this verse does not indicate ANYTHING about the future use of the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It only indicates the miracles Jesus did for the people, and miracles have NOT ceased either.

Sorry Ernie but you're way off base with this attempt to limit Jesus and the Holy Spirit. so I will cease trying.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I have no doubt that John's statement is the simple fact that he states and has no hidden meaning for the future. The Greek word for 'have' is echō, and is a verb being used in the present tense along with the context of this passage.
Take a look at v29, where Jesus says;“Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
This statement is also not to be used to contradict what Jesus said in John 6:44;
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Finally this verse does not indicate ANYTHING about the future use of the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It only indicates the miracles Jesus did for the people, and miracles have NOT ceased either.

Sorry Ernie but you're way off base with this attempt to limit Jesus and the Holy Spirit. so I will cease trying.

You did not deal with what John said and now run from another debate having failed to prove anything. You never showed that elusive verse that promises you that God will give you the ability to perform miraculous signs.


Here are the facts you would not deal with in Mk 16 and Jn 20.


In Mk 16 it was the apostles who were the unbelievers, they would not believe the reports that Christ had risen from the dead and had been seen alive by others. When Christ meets the apostles in person He upbraids them for their unbelief and hard hearts. Christ then gives them the great commission in verses 15 and 16 to preach the gospel to every creature. A major, essential part of preaching the gospel is preaching a risen/resurrected Christ, so how would the apostles ever be able to preach the gospel when they were in unbelief about Christ being raised from the dead? Not until they believed Christ was risen could they then and only then preach the gospel. So them of the apostles that believed Christ was risen would have these signs following them as they went about preaching. Had they remained in unbelief, they would not have gone out to preach the gospel and not have the Lord working with them with those signs following.

Mk 16:20 tells us that signs had a purpose, to confirm the word. The apostles could do these signs to confirm, to validate that what they were speaking was from God Himself and thereby induce people to believe. In Jn 20:30,31 John wrote down some of those signs that Christ performed so "ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." The verb phrase "are written" is in the perfect tense meaning those signs Christ performed that John wrote down have a continuing, abiding effect. Since John wrote them down, those signs done by Christ perpetually do what they were meant do do, that is, they perpetually confirm the word of God and induce a belief in people. So if those signs Christ performed 2000+ years ago still perpetually fulfill their purpose today (and they do), then you cannot give one legitimate reason why we need signs today. Any reason you do attempt to give, then you are implying that those signs Christ performed that 'are written' have failed and are no longer fulfilling their intended purpose. So the only signs that are real and that continue fulfill their intended purpose and the only ones people should believe in are the ones that "are written".

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually that is why you are wrong. IT, is the issue. IT refers to what the context is. IT is Mary's statement about Jesus being risen. IT is about the Eleven not believing HER.
Like I said, IT is so obvious and yet you ignore IT.
I really can't continue this with you
Moving on.

The apostles not believing IT is the issue.

 

[Stan53]

The apostles not believing IT is the issue.

Not believing what Ernie?

 

[Stan53]

You did not deal with what John said and now run from another debate having failed to prove anything. You never showed that elusive verse that promises you that God will give you the ability to perform miraculous signs.


Here are the facts you would not deal with in Mk 16 and Jn 20.


In Mk 16 it was the apostles who were the unbelievers, they would not believe the reports that Christ had risen from the dead and had been seen alive by others. When Christ meets the apostles in person He upbraids them for their unbelief and hard hearts. Christ then gives them the great commission in verses 15 and 16 to preach the gospel to every creature. A major, essential part of preaching the gospel is preaching a risen/resurrected Christ, so how would the apostles ever be able to preach the gospel when they were in unbelief about Christ being raised from the dead? Not until they believed Christ was risen could they then and only then preach the gospel. So them of the apostles that believed Christ was risen would have these signs following them as they went about preaching. Had they remained in unbelief, they would not have gone out to preach the gospel and not have the Lord working with them with those signs following.

Mk 16:20 tells us that signs had a purpose, to confirm the word. The apostles could do these signs to confirm, to validate that what they were speaking was from God Himself and thereby induce people to believe. In Jn 20:30,31 John wrote down some of those signs that Christ performed so "ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." The verb phrase "are written" is in the perfect tense meaning those signs Christ performed that John wrote down have a continuing, abiding effect. Since John wrote them down, those signs done by Christ perpetually do what they were meant do do, that is, they perpetually confirm the word of God and induce a belief in people. So if those signs Christ performed 2000+ years ago still perpetually fulfill their purpose today (and they do), then you cannot give one legitimate reason why we need signs today. Any reason you do attempt to give, then you are implying that those signs Christ performed that 'are written' have failed and are no longer fulfilling their intended purpose. So the only signs that are real and that continue fulfill their intended purpose and the only ones people should believe in are the ones that "are written".

I'm sorry if you won't take the time to FULLY read my posts, but I have FULLY addressed both Mark 16 and John 20.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'm sorry if you won't take the time to FULLY read my posts, but I have FULLY addressed both Mark 16 and John 20.

Not correctly.

 

[John Zain]

Sorry, I haven't gone through all 77 posts,
but this was given to me yesterday ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Dru2e7Uak&feature=related

Please watch the full 1/2 hour ... you will be impressed!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Sorry, I haven't gone through all 77 posts,

but this was given to me yesterday ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Dru...eature=related

Please watch the full 1/2 hour ... you will be impressed!

"God's precious Scriptures are of no value to those who don't believe them!"
"For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God." (Rom 8:14)
​

I was not impressed.


EDIT:

http://www.sidroth.org/site/PageServer?pagename=abt_statementoffaith

Above is the link to this Sid Roth's "Statement of Faith" page that contains a lot of biblical error. I assure you that a guy who is teaching biblical error is not performing miraculous signs.

 

[Classik]

I was not impressed.


EDIT:

http://www.sidroth.org/site/PageServer?pagename=abt_statementoffaith

Above is the link to this Sid Roth's "Statement of Faith" page that contains a lot of biblical error. I assure you that a guy who is teaching biblical error is not performing miraculous signs.

:toofunny
What are you then???
Disappointed???