The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[Ernest T. Bass]

A dead faith can't save because it isn't really faith in the blood of Christ. If it were it could be seen in what the person does. If you can't see faith at work in a person, they have a faith (not works) that can not save them. That is James' teaching. That doesn't mean the works do the justifying. That is the erroneous, Biblically incomplete conclusion that you are drawing.

The mistake you're making is thinking that the works themselves do the saving. Even you say an obedient BELIEF saves, but for some reason you insist it is the work faith produces that actually makes us righteous before God. That is pure blasphemy.

You say a dead faith can't save and I agree. So what is a dead faith? A faith that has no works. Yet you keep insisting that a "faith apart from works" saves, so you are indeed insisting a dead faith saves.

You say "doesn't mean the works do the justifying. That is the erroneous, Biblically incomplete conclusion that you are drawing.

The mistake you're making is thinking that the works themselves do the saving.

But James did plainly say "by works a man is justified". In Rom 10:9,10 Paul said one believes unto righteousness and confesses with the mouth unto salvation. So even Paul says the works of believing and confessing with the mouth saves.

Here's the mistake many make. God saves, but how does God save? God has chosen obedience to His will as the means by which He saves, Heb 5:9. So in that sense obedient works as belief and confession save for they are the means God has chosen to save man. Over the years I have seen many bumper stickers and signs that simply say "JESUS SAVES" yet they do not go in the specifics as to how Jesus saves. Unfortunately many assume their theoogy as to how Jesus saves instead of looking at the bible and seeing that Jesus is the author of salvation unto all them that obey Him, Heb 5:9.

It's right under your nose there in Romans.

No it's not. Many, many men as Martin Luther have perverted God's word by adding the word "only" to it.

Again, Rom 4:5 Paul said "he that worketh not, BUT BELIEVETH." Believing is a WORK so "WORKETH NOT" does not exclude the obedient work of believing but excludes the work of trying to earn savlation as the worker in verse 4 tries to do.

There you go again...thinking James is using the word 'justify' to mean being MADE righteous, instead of what he means, and the context bears out, that a man is justified (as in SHOWN to be righteous) by doing the royal law of scripture in the Law, 'love your neighbor as yourself'.


It's impossible for James to mean a man is MADE righteous by keeping the law 'love your neighbor as yourself' (see context if you don't believe the 'doing' of faith he is talking about is the law). It's impossible because that would be a direct contradiction to Paul's teaching that a man is NOT made righteous by works of the law. So, do you want to insist James is telling us we are MADE righteous by doing the law ('love your neighbor as yourself') and bring him into direct contradiction with Paul's teaching that we are not justified by works of the law, or do you want to finally acknowledge that James is talking about being SHOWN to be righteous by works of the law? In which case his teaching is perfectly compatible and not contradictory to Paul's teaching that we are MADE righteous by faith apart from works of righteousness.

You say "Paul's teaching that we are MADE righteous by faith apart from works of righteousness"

Paul NEVER said this and you have been caught "red-handed" changing what Paul said. And then you are trying to make those changes you made 'truth".

Rom 4:6 NKJV "just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:"

YOU ADDED "of righteousness" on the end of this verse as Luther had to add the word "only" to Rom 5:1.

In Rom 6:16 " Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? "

Again, you serve one of two masters, either:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

I serve #2. Above you made changes to what Paul said to eliminate #2 for yourself not leaving you with a very good choice.


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In Rom 10:3 Paul tells us the Jews were lost for they " have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Psa 119:172 says all God's commands are rightoeusness. So the Jews were lost for they have not obeyed the commands of God, they were lost for they would not do #2 above from Rom 6;16, they would not "obey unto righteousness".


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Rom 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;.."


Belief is a work, Jn 6:27-29. So here we have one must do the WORK of believing unto righteousness.....work unto righteousness.

See, you can't continue to confuse James' very different teaching about justification with Paul's teaching about justification and think you're not creating a very clear contradiction between them.

Paul--a person is justified (MADE righteous) by faith apart from works.

James--a person is justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by works.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Justified

You are now changing what James said.


When one has been justified that means his sins have been forgiven, he has been freed from his sins and stands justified before God. So justified is equivalent to being saved. Yet there is just one way to be justified/saved, no alternatives so Paul and James above must be in agreement. That can only mean when James said "by works" and Paul said "not by works" they are not talking about the same type of works. The work James speaks of are works of obedience to God while Paul is talking about works one does to try and earn salvation.



James 2:23,24 "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"

Note how James is tying works to Abraham's belief and James in v23 is quoting the same verse from Genesis that Paul does in Rom 4:5. Therefore Paul as James is NOT excluding obedient works as belief in Rom 4:5 when Paul said "worketh not". If you insist Paul is excluding obedient works in Rom 4:5 then YOU are creating a contradiction between James and Paul.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You say a dead faith can't save and I agree. So what is a dead faith? A faith that has no works. Yet you keep insisting that a "faith apart from works" saves, so you are indeed insisting a dead faith saves.

Why do you keep insisting our argument is that saving faith doesn't have to do anything????? That's NOT the argument.

The argument is, faith all by itself, apart from the works that must accompany it, does the justifying. Understand?

But James did plainly say "by works a man is justified".

jus·ti·fy   [juhs-tuh-fahy] verb, jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing.
verb (used with object)
1.
to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right

( from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Justified)


The context of the passage shows us this is exactly the meaning of 'justified' James is using:

"...I will show you my faith by what I do." (James 2:18 NIV1984)


If you continue to insist that he is using the same meaning of 'justified' as Paul does then you believe that Paul says we are not justified by works of the law, while James says we are justified by works of the law. Do you really want to go on record as saying that contradiction exists in scripture?

In Rom 10:9,10 Paul said one believes unto righteousness and confesses with the mouth unto salvation. So even Paul says the works of believing and confessing with the mouth saves.

But we know from all of Paul's teaching that it is the faith that does the actual justifying. You are not rightly dividing the word of God when you say 'being saved by our works' means the works themselves do the justifying (makes us righteous before God).

Here's the mistake many make. God saves, but how does God save? God has chosen obedience to His will as the means by which He saves, Heb 5:9. So in that sense obedient works as belief and confession save for they are the means God has chosen to save man. Over the years I have seen many bumper stickers and signs that simply say "JESUS SAVES" yet they do not go in the specifics as to how Jesus saves. Unfortunately many assume their theoogy as to how Jesus saves instead of looking at the bible and seeing that Jesus is the author of salvation unto all them that obey Him, Heb 5:9.

...Unto all them who have the faith in Jesus Christ as proven by their obedience. Again, you are not rightly dividing the Word of God. You're taking this one verse out of context of all that is said in the Word about what does the actual justifying.

James' letter says a faith that does not obey is not the faith that saves. It is in no way suggesting that we are made righteous by what we do, but rather we are shown to be righteous (and therefore saved) by what we do, and that if you can't do that...you don't have the faith that saves. That's what you should be telling people...not that they are justified by righteous activities.

 

[heymikey80]

Faith is a work so faith + works is what justifies.

What has not been shown is that faith void of works justifies.

Didn't Romans 4:5 say exactly that?

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:5

Why would someone need to show something the Scripture explicitly says? I have faith in God, so I remain credulous of what God has said through His Apostles.

 

[heymikey80]

Was Abraham a worker who tried to earn salvation by keeping God's law perfectly?

No, Abraham was prelaw. Therefore Abraham was not someone who tried to earn salvation complying with a law that ... hadn't been written(!).

He already had justification, says God.

Or was Abraham a non-worker who believed; he sinned yet he believed in God Who justifies sinners as Abraham and Abraham's faith was reckoned righteous?

Abraham did not work for justification. Whether faith were a work or not, doesn't matter. For the purposes of salvation it would not of itself accomplish justification, either. So: not a work.

Abraham was not a worker from the viewpoint of salvation. Abraham was not a lawkeeper either.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Why do you keep insisting our argument is that saving faith doesn't have to do anything????? That's NOT the argument.

The argument is, faith all by itself, apart from the works that must accompany it, does the justifying. Understand?



jus·ti·fy   [juhs-tuh-fahy] verb, jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing.
verb (used with object)
1.
to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right

( from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Justified)


The context of the passage shows us this is exactly the meaning of 'justified' James is using:

"...I will show you my faith by what I do." (James 2:18 NIV1984)


If you continue to insist that he is using the same meaning of 'justified' as Paul does then you believe that Paul says we are not justified by works of the law, while James says we are justified by works of the law. Do you really want to go on record as saying that contradiction exists in scripture?




But we know from all of Paul's teaching that it is the faith that does the actual justifying. You are not rightly dividing the word of God when you say 'being saved by our works' means the works themselves do the justifying (makes us righteous before God).



...Unto all them who have the faith in Jesus Christ as proven by their obedience. Again, you are not rightly dividing the Word of God. You're taking this one verse out of context of all that is said in the Word about what does the actual justifying.

James' letter says a faith that does not obey is not the faith that saves. It is in no way suggesting that we are made righteous by what we do, but rather we are shown to be righteous (and therefore saved) by what we do, and that if you can't do that...you don't have the faith that saves. That's what you should be telling people...not that they are justified by righteous activities.

Faith that is all by itself apart from works is DEAD and a dead faith cannot save.


James is saying a faith is evidenced by works. Therefore if a man has no works, then he cannot even prove he has faith..."show me thy faith without thy works".

Justified means being freed from sin, then one can stand just or right before God.


James says a man is justified by works, James 2:24 and James used Abraham's obedience to God as his example.

Paul said of the Romans they obeyed from the heart, then they were freed from sins (justified) Rom 6:17,18.


So James and Paul are in agreement that man is justifed by obedience to God's will. What Paul is saying in Rom 4 when he said is not justified by works, the works here do not refer to obedience to God but trying to keep the OT law, keep it perfectly where one's salvation would then be of debt and not grace.

So Rom 6:17,18 is just one example of Paul saying one is justified by obedience to God.

Rom 10:3 is another exmple where Paul said the Jews were lost for they would not obey God's commands.

In Rom 10:9,10 Paul said one does works (believe and confess) unto salvation/righteousness.


How many more examples would one need to see that Paul said one must do obedient works unto salvation?

From 10:16 Paul said you either obey:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness.

I have said many times i serve #2.

You have yet to tell me which you serve?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Didn't Romans 4:5 say exactly that?

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:5

Why would someone need to show something the Scripture explicitly says? I have faith in God, so I remain credulous of what God has said through His Apostles.

Many falsely try and have "worketh not" in Rom 4:5 exclude ALL works so they can promote their faith only theology. But in the context "worketh not" is not excluding obedient works but works one does to try and earn salvation, to try and make salvation of debt and not grace.

Jethro Bodine and I agreed Abraham was one who "worketh not, but believeth".

Yet Abraham was one who did obedient works Gen 12:1-3 cf Heb 11:8 so he had an obedient belief. So again "worketh not" does NOT exclude obedience it excludes works of merit.

To paraphrase Rom 4:5 Abraham was one who worked not to earn salvation, but had an obedient belief in God

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No, Abraham was prelaw. Therefore Abraham was not someone who tried to earn salvation complying with a law that ... hadn't been written(!).

He already had justification, says God.

Abraham did not work for justification. Whether faith were a work or not, doesn't matter. For the purposes of salvation it would not of itself accomplish justification, either. So: not a work.

Abraham was not a worker from the viewpoint of salvation. Abraham was not a lawkeeper either.

a)Sin is defined in the bible as transgression of the law.

b)Abraham sinned

c) therefore Abraham was under law.

Abraham lived under what many refer to as Patriarchal laws. God later gave His chosen people Israel the law of Moses while non-Jews continued to live under God's Patriarchal laws. And Abraham was an obedient to God Heb 11:8, James 2:21-24 and his obedient works justifed him.

An issue Paul was dealing with in Rom 4 was with false Judiazing teachers who were teaching one could not be saved unless he was circumcised, cf Acts 15:1,2. Paul refuted these false teachers by showing Abraham was reckoned righteous in UNcircumcision therefore Gentiles Christian could also be reckoned righteous in UNcircumcision. This in no way means Abraham did not have to obey for He would have to obey God to be saved just as the Romans had to obey from the heart to be freed from sins.

 

[heymikey80]

a)Sin is defined in the bible as transgression of the law.

Sin is also defined as anything that is not of sin. Rom 14:23

Scripture also states that sin is not attributed when there is no law. Rom 5:12-14

Finally, Paul asserts that lawkeeping is not of faith. Gal 3:12

b)Abraham sinned

Yes, like Adam Abraham sinned against God.

c) therefore Abraham was under law.

It doesn't follow.

Abraham lived under what many refer to as Patriarchal laws. God later gave His chosen people Israel the law of Moses while non-Jews continued to live under God's Patriarchal laws. And Abraham was an obedient to God Heb 11:8, James 2:21-24 and his obedient works justifed him.

That's an inference based on a particular theological view, which again has trouble with certain passages. You'd expect such a patriarchal law to appear in Romans 5 if that's what Paul meant. It doesn't. In fact it's completely missing from the New Testament.

An issue Paul was dealing with in Rom 4 was with false Judiazing teachers who were teaching one could not be saved unless he was circumcised, cf Acts 15:1,2. Paul refuted these false teachers by showing Abraham was reckoned righteous in UNcircumcision therefore Gentiles Christian could also be reckoned righteous in UNcircumcision. This in no way means Abraham did not have to obey for He would have to obey God to be saved just as the Romans had to obey from the heart to be freed from sins.

Paul stated Abraham was justified by faith without works in Romans 4:4-5. He said so explicitly. I believe what Paul says, especially when it's said so directly.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Sin is also defined as anything that is not of sin. Rom 14:23

Scripture also states that sin is not attributed when there is no law. Rom 5:12-14

Finally, Paul asserts that lawkeeping is not of faith. Gal 3:12

None of this disproves my point but is in agreement. If sin is not attributed when there is no law yet Abraham sinned then theremust have been law he was under.

In Gal 3:12 the Galatians tried to go back to the OTlaw thinking they could be justified by being circumcised. Paul's point is that thr OT law does not jsutify a NT Chrisitan. Paul goes on to tell the galatians that if one could be justifed by keeping the OT law then Christ died in vain.

Yes, like Adam Abraham sinned against God.

There was a law they transgressed for if there was no law then sin would not been attributed to them.

It doesn't follow.

You admit Abraham sinned so what law did he transgress?

The bible says little about the Patriarchal law but Abraham was under it, Gen 12:8; 13:4 that required sacrifices as with Cain and Abel that God accepted one and not the others for Abel's was by faith, Heb 11:4, and Cain's was not.

That's an inference based on a particular theological view, which again has trouble with certain passages. You'd expect such a patriarchal law to appear in Romans 5 if that's what Paul meant. It doesn't. In fact it's completely missing from the New Testament.

In Rom 1 and 2 speaks of how the Gentiles were accountable to God:

When the Hebrews were segregated from the balance of humanity, as a “holy people” for Jehovah’s “own possession” (Dt. 7:6; 14:2), the Gentiles continued under the Patriarchal system until they were offered the gospel, and the Patriarchal regime was replaced by the international Christian system (Acts 10).

Romans 1:18ff shows how those ancient Gentiles were accountable to God for their beliefs and conduct. Romans 2:12-16 amplifies the point by suggesting that even the patriarchs, who had no written revelation from the Lord, possessed a threshold sense of the difference between right and wrong (called “conscience”), and when they rejected the former and embraced the latter, they stood condemned.

When the Gentiles sinned (and there can be no sin without law — Rom. 4:15; 1 Jn. 3:4), they were punished. Ultimately, those antique nations will be judged by the “light” which they possessed, and not by that which is available today through the Scriptures. We are under a significantly greater measure of accountability in this age.
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/759-to-what-law-were-the-ancient-gentiles-accountable
Wayne Jackson

So if there is no law sin is not attributed but sin was attributed to those ancient Gentiles as in Nineveh, so they were under law, not the law of Moses but Patriachal laws that was prior to the Mosaical Law.

Paul stated Abraham was justified by faith without works in Romans 4:4-5. He said so explicitly. I believe what Paul says, especially when it's said so directly.

Again, Abraham was not the "worker" of verse 4 who tried to work to earn his salvation but Abraham was the one who "worketh not, but believeth".

It is undeniable that Abraham's belief had obedience, Gen 12:1-3 cf Heb 11:8 so "worketh not" does not exclude his obedience but excludes the works of merit of the "worker" in v4. No one can just rip away Abraham;s obedience foem his beleif and pretend it never existed.


http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=894

 

[heymikey80]

Many falsely try and have "worketh not" in Rom 4:5 exclude ALL works so they can promote their faith only theology. But in the context "worketh not" is not excluding obedient works but works one does to try and earn salvation, to try and make salvation of debt and not grace.

Jethro Bodine and I agreed Abraham was one who "worketh not, but believeth".

Paul's citing a general precedent, applying it to Abraham. Note that just afterward is cited David. Was David's adultery an obedient work? How about allowing the rape of his daughter by his son?

Yet Abraham was one who did obedient works Gen 12:1-3 cf Heb 11:8 so he had an obedient belief. So again "worketh not" does NOT exclude obedience it excludes works of merit.

"worketh not" excludes obedient works for the intent of receiving salvation.
Nobody said Abraham didn't work. The question was whether Abraham worked in order to receive God's justification. And Paul declares it pointblank: Abraham didn't.

Certainly, works are not excluded form the Christian's life. But obedient works are excluded as a cause of salvation.

Note the breadth of Paul's statement: no works can be used for the intent of gaining an obligation from God. That would demand that God not hold works as a prerequisite for salvation. Nor would God withhold salvation for the absence of works.

To paraphrase Rom 4:5 Abraham was one who worked not to earn salvation, but had an obedient belief in God

... which works were not a cause for salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Paul's citing a general precedent, applying it to Abraham. Note that just afterward is cited David. Was David's adultery an obedient work? How about allowing the rape of his daughter by his son?

"worketh not" excludes obedient works for the intent of receiving salvation.
Nobody said Abraham didn't work. The question was whether Abraham worked in order to receive God's justification. And Paul declares it pointblank: Abraham didn't.

Certainly, works are not excluded form the Christian's life. But obedient works are excluded as a cause of salvation.

Paul NEVER excluded obedience.

In Rom 6:16 Paul said you either serve:

1) sin unto death

2) obedience unto righeousness


I serve # 2. Unfortunately for many people their personal theology excludes #2 for them. In this same context in Rom 6 Paul said the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine,then they were freed from sin. In Romans 10:9,10 Paul put obedient works (belief and confessing with the mouth) unto savlation.

In the immediate context of Rom 4:4,5 Paul defines who the worker is "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

So the worker is one who thinks he can keep the law perfectly whereby his savlation is of debt and not grace. So the type of work Paul has under consideration in the context is works of merit one does to try and earn salvation.

Verse 5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."


So the one who "worketh not" is the one who does NOT do works of merit but one who does the obeident work of belief. Abraham was one who "worketh not" for he did not do works of merit to try and earn his salvation but he had an obedient belief in God, Gen 12:1-3 cf Heb 11:8. So Paul is not exlcuidng works of obedience but works of merit and try to get Paul to exclude all works creates a multitude of contradictions.


You say "Nobody said Abraham didn't work. The question was whether Abraham worked in order to receive God's justification. And Paul declares it pointblank: Abraham didn't."

Paul NEVER said Abraham did not do works to be justified, neither did James. Again, in the context from verse 5 Abraham was one who "worketh not, but believeth". So Abraham "worketh not" means he did not do works of merit. Abraham was one who believeth. Paul did NOT say "believeth alone" for Abraham's faith included works, you admitted that yourself.

So verse 5 Paul is saying Abraham was one did not do works of merit to earn salvation but had an obedient belief in Him who justifieth the ungodly.

Verse 6-8 "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

Again, the worker in this context is the one that does works of merit, so "without works" in verse 6 excludes works of merit not an obedient faith as David and Abraham both had.

Verses 6-8 shows that God will either impute righteousness or He will impute sin. God imputes righteousness to those who's "iniquities are forgiven and sins are covered". Rom 2:4,5 God does NOT forgive the impenitent. God forgives the iniquities and covers the sins of those that do the obedient work of repenting. So again "without works" of verse 6 cannot exclude obedient works else it creates a mltitude of contradictions.

Note the breadth of Paul's statement: no works can be used for the intent of gaining an obligation from God. That would demand that God not hold works as a prerequisite for salvation. Nor would God withhold salvation for the absence of works.

... which works were not a cause for salvation.

Again, when in verse 4 Paul said "worketh not" and verse 6 "without works" these refer to works of merit the worker of verse 4 does and not the obedient works of faith as Abraham and David did.

The only way one can make his salvation something earned/something of debt and not of grace is by keeping God's law sinlessly perfect. But Abraham and David both sinned so they could not earn salvation by works they needed grace and received grace by obedient faith and not works of merit.

Since one can gain salvation by debt and not of grace only by perfect sinlessness.

That means any argument accusing those who do sin but obey as trying to earning salvation are bad, false arguments for obedience does not, cannot ever earn salvation.


Would you accuse Abraham of trying to earn salvation by his obedient faith?

 

[heymikey80]

Paul NEVER excluded obedience.

In Rom 6:16 Paul said you either serve:

1) sin unto death

2) obedience unto righeousness

Well, would it not surprise you that the Greek here for "obey" is "submit", not "work"? Greek has both terms, and this one emphasizes submission, not work: strictly "under-hearing" or "heeding". The point Paul makes is that the heart is submitting to a lord, not that the servant is doing work for his master.

 

[heymikey80]

So the worker is one who thinks he can keep the law perfectly whereby his salvation is of debt and not grace. So the type of work Paul has under consideration in the context is works of merit one does to try and earn salvation.

No, the worker is the someone who thinks he can do work for salvation. That's precisely what Paul said, he didn't say a thing about keeping the Law perfectly when it came to Abraham (who was pre-law in the first place). Paul was pointing out, the Judaic model of good works + grace didn't handle salvation.

He was right. So combining grace with good works eliminates grace. "Otherwise grace is no longer grace" (Rom 11:6)

 

[heymikey80]

You say "Nobody said Abraham didn't work. The question was whether Abraham worked in order to receive God's justification. And Paul declares it pointblank: Abraham didn't."

Paul NEVER said Abraham did not do works to be justified, neither did James. Again, in the context from verse 5 Abraham was one who "worketh not, but believeth". So Abraham "worketh not" means he did not do works of merit. Abraham was one who believeth. Paul did NOT say "believeth alone" for Abraham's faith included works, you admitted that yourself.

Abraham did not work to receive God's justification.

As I said -- Abraham did good works. But Abraham did not work to receive God's justification. Therefore justification is not from good works. Justification is not from any works. That's what Paul said! Nothing in the text limits Paul to "meritorious works". In fact, Paul said "when a man works, his work is treated as his due." Again, Paul states it: work involves his due. It's only work, it's not some special kind of work. Then Paul said "does not work". Your theology doesn't appear to permit Paul to say "does not work". But Paul said "does not work".

Justification is therefore credited from faith, not from work -- any work.

Now, a man works; even Abraham worked. But Abraham did not work for justification nor for salvation. The wages of good works don't deserve such a wage of eternal life. Ever. So there's no reason to talk about any difference here. Paul is talking about the wage-value of any work. He is not limiting work to some merit-intent the worker expects. It's just "work" to Paul. That's how Paul puts it.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well, would it not surprise you that the Greek here for "obey" is "submit", not "work"? Greek has both terms, and this one emphasizes submission, not work: strictly "under-hearing" or "heeding". The point Paul makes is that the heart is submitting to a lord, not that the servant is doing work for his master.

Submitting is doing something, doing nothing is not submitting. In the context Paul said the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine and that form of doctrine was being water baptized. They obeyed by doing nothing? No, they obeyed by submitting themselves to water baptism. In Acts 2:38 Peter commanded his listeners to be baptized. Baptism is in the passive voice, it is something they would submit themselves to and again, doing nothing, simple assent of the mind is not submitting, doing nothing is not obeying a command.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No, the worker is the someone who thinks he can do work for salvation. That's precisely what Paul said, he didn't say a thing about keeping the Law perfectly when it came to Abraham (who was pre-law in the first place). Paul was pointing out, the Judaic model of good works + grace didn't handle salvation.

He was right. So combining grace with good works eliminates grace. "Otherwise grace is no longer grace" (Rom 11:6)

In Rom 4:4 the worker is one who's "reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

The only way your reward could ever of debt and not grace is if you keep God's law perfectly thereby making you perfectly sinless. A perfectly sinless person would not need grace so his reward would be something owed him. So one who obeys but occasionally sins cannot ever earn salvation.

So the worker is one doing works to try and earn his salvation making it of debt and not of grace.


In verse 5 Paul said "he that worketh not". The one who "worketh not" is the opposite of the worker of verse 4. So "worketh not" excludes the works one does in trying to earn salvation. It does not exclude obedience.

Abraham was one who worketh not but beliveth.

So Abraham was no one who did owrks to try and earn his salvation making it of debt and not grace. Abraham was one who "believeth". Paul did not say "but believeth only". We know for a fact that Abraham's belief was an obedient belief Gen 12:1-3 cf Heb 11:8. We know that Abraham was one who sinned therefore he could not make his salvation of debt and not of grace by keeping God's law perfectly. Abraham was one who sinned but he had an obedient belief in God and God reckoned that obedient belief as righteous. So his obedience could not ever earn salvation for he was a sinner and the only way savlation could be earned was if one was perfectly sinless.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Abraham did not work to receive God's justification.

As I said -- Abraham did good works. But Abraham did not work to receive God's justification. Therefore justification is not from good works. Justification is not from any works. That's what Paul said! Nothing in the text limits Paul to "meritorious works". In fact, Paul said "when a man works, his work is treated as his due." Again, Paul states it: work involves his due. It's only work, it's not some special kind of work. Then Paul said "does not work". Your theology doesn't appear to permit Paul to say "does not work". But Paul said "does not work".

Justification is therefore credited from faith, not from work -- any work.

Now, a man works; even Abraham worked. But Abraham did not work for justification nor for salvation. The wages of good works don't deserve such a wage of eternal life. Ever. So there's no reason to talk about any difference here. Paul is talking about the wage-value of any work. He is not limiting work to some merit-intent the worker expects. It's just "work" to Paul. That's how Paul puts it.

There is a difference between good works and obedient works. Abraham did OBEDIENT works and that is why he was justified.

An atheist can do good works but those works will never save him. He will have to do obey God's will by doing obedient works (believe, repent, confess, be baptized) to be saved.


So justification is not from good works but from obedient works. Again, Rom 6:17,18 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

The Romans obeyed from the heart (obeident works not just good works) then they were free from sins (justified).

James speaks of Abraham's OBEDIENT work of offering Isaac..." Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? "

When James said here "justified by works" he is not talking about just any work but specifically obedience to God. Abraham offereing Isaac was obedience, an act, something done, it's not just a change of heart or some mental assent of the mind.

James goes on to say:

"Seest thou how faith wrought with his obedient works, and by obedient works was faith made perfect?"

"Ye see then how that by obedient works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Even though I added "obedient" to the verse it changes nothing for that is exactly the kind of work James is speaking about.

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Again, from Rom 4:4 the ONLY WAY SALVATION CAN BE EARNED OR MERITED is if you could keep God's law perfectly and be sinless, then your reward would then be of debt and not grace for a sinless person does not need grace.

But you sin, so you cannot ever earn salvation by being sinless. Your salvation will then have to be of grace and not of debt. Therefore to receive grace means you have to obey God by believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized. And even after you obey by doing these things you are still one who sins and is in need of grace..."So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." So even though you obey you are still one who sins, you are an unprofitable servant in need of grace and no way does an unprofitable servant who is just doing his duty can ever earn salvation. The unprofitable servant would have to be sinless to earn salvation but he is not sinless so he can never earn salvation, his sin means he can never make his reward of debt and not of grace.

One can never be saved until they do obey. For until they obey they remain in a state of disobedience and God will have vengeance upon those that obey not, 2 Thess 1:8. God will not save those that stay in a disobedient state.

 

[heymikey80]

Submitting is doing something, doing nothing is not submitting.

That's not the case. If you're submitting to a command to quit working, you're submitting by doing nothing.

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. Heb 4:1

That the Romans obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine means nothing more than they submitted to the teachings in their hearts. And what was the most significant issue to Paul? The heart. Not the actions.

 

[heymikey80]

In Rom 4:4 the worker is one who's "reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

The only way your reward could ever of debt and not grace is if you keep God's law perfectly thereby making you perfectly sinless.

So if you don't do your job perfectly, you don't get paid?

You see how impractical this is becoming. Paul isn't simply rejecting perfection; Paul is rejecting work involved in becoming righteous.

You cannot pursue righteousness by works.

Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. Rom 9:31-32

So what is Paul saying here? Don't pursue righteousness as if it were based on works. That way does not succeed in righteousness.

In verse 5 Paul said "he that worketh not". The one who "worketh not" is the opposite of the worker of verse 4. So "worketh not" excludes the works one does in trying to earn salvation. It does not exclude obedience.

As stated before, obedience is not works. Often obedience is rest. Defying God would be to attempt to do what God alone does, which is to save us.

Abraham was one who worketh not but beliveth.

"worketh not" in Greek is "does not work".

So Abraham was no one who did owrks to try and earn his salvation making it of debt and not grace. Abraham was one who "believeth". Paul did not say "but believeth only".

What Paul is definitely saying is that Abraham did not work in order to obtain or secure his righteousness. Paul is flatly saying, works do not participate in God's declaring us righteous.

Did Abraham do things? Well yeah. So do I. I cut the lawn. I eat supper. But I'm not under some illusion that doing things impacts my salvation. My hope is built on nothing less that Jesus' Blood and righteousness.

As for good works, God saved me for the purpose of good works. Not vice versa. "For we are ... created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10.

It's what Scripture says.

We know for a fact that Abraham's belief was an obedient belief Gen 12:1-3 cf Heb 11:8.

You mean Abraham's belief was a working belief, and of course it was. But works come out of faith. God declares Abe righteous based on his faith, not his works.

We know that Abraham was one who sinned therefore he could not make his salvation of debt and not of grace by keeping God's law perfectly. Abraham was one who sinned but he had an obedient belief in God and God reckoned that obedient belief as righteous. So his obedience could not ever earn salvation for he was a sinner and the only way savlation could be earned was if one was perfectly sinless.

No, your injection of "obedient" and "law" are again, not present in Paul's reasoning at Romans 4:1-6. Neither is the case, either. here's why.

1. The law didn't exist in Abe's time. That pretty-much damages Paul's whole argument from Abe if Paul meant to talk only about the law.
2. If it were obedient belief, then Abraham's circumcision would have been reintroduced. Seriously, read Genesis 17. God tells Abraham to obey by being circumcised. Yet Paul says Abe was righteous before being circumcised. So the obedient action was not required.
3. You're saying Abe sinned but also obeyed. That eviscerates definitions: "Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Rom 6:16 "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:19

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That's not the case. If you're submitting to a command to quit working, you're submitting by doing nothing.

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. Heb 4:1

That the Romans obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine means nothing more than they submitted to the teachings in their hearts. And what was the most significant issue to Paul? The heart. Not the actions.

From Jn 6:27-29 belie is a work, it something done not just a mental acknowledgement. The devils believe, they mentally acknowledge the Jesus is the Son of God but their belief has no works so their belief is dead and cannot save them.

Paul said in Rom 10:9,10 to believe and confess with the mouth UNTO savlation. Both belief and confessing with the mouth are works, both are something done not mere mental acknowledgments.


The Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine. Obey means they submitted to, they followed, they did that doctrine and that doctrine was submitting to water baptism, Rom 6:3-6.


Obeying is doing not just mental assent of the mind:

Mt 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Mt 7:24 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

Jn 3:21 " But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."


Jn 9:31 "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. "


1 Jn 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."





Not doing is sin:

1 Jn 3:10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. "

3 Jn 1:11 "Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? "


Rom 2:8 "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,


Simply redefining words to get them to fit your theology will not work.