The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[Ernest T. Bass]

So if you don't do your job perfectly, you don't get paid?

You see how impractical this is becoming. Paul isn't simply rejecting perfection; Paul is rejecting work involved in becoming righteous.

You cannot pursue righteousness by works.

Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. Rom 9:31-32

So what is Paul saying here? Don't pursue righteousness as if it were based on works. That way does not succeed in righteousness.

As stated before, obedience is not works. Often obedience is rest. Defying God would be to attempt to do what God alone does, which is to save us.

"worketh not" in Greek is "does not work".

What Paul is definitely saying is that Abraham did not work in order to obtain or secure his righteousness. Paul is flatly saying, works do not participate in God's declaring us righteous.

Did Abraham do things? Well yeah. So do I. I cut the lawn. I eat supper. But I'm not under some illusion that doing things impacts my salvation. My hope is built on nothing less that Jesus' Blood and righteousness.

As for good works, God saved me for the purpose of good works. Not vice versa. "For we are ... created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10.

It's what Scripture says.

You mean Abraham's belief was a working belief, and of course it was. But works come out of faith. God declares Abe righteous based on his faith, not his works.

No, your injection of "obedient" and "law" are again, not present in Paul's reasoning at Romans 4:1-6. Neither is the case, either. here's why.

1. The law didn't exist in Abe's time. That pretty-much damages Paul's whole argument from Abe if Paul meant to talk only about the law.
2. If it were obedient belief, then Abraham's circumcision would have been reintroduced. Seriously, read Genesis 17. God tells Abraham to obey by being circumcised. Yet Paul says Abe was righteous before being circumcised. So the obedient action was not required.
3. You're saying Abe sinned but also obeyed. That eviscerates definitions: "Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Rom 6:16 "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:19

Rom 4"5 "worketh not, but believeth"

Abraham was one who worketh not but believeth"

Did Abraham's belief include obedient works? (A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 4"5 "worketh not, but believeth"

Abraham was one who worketh not but believeth"

Did Abraham's belief include obedient works? (A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.)

(Couldn't help seeing this post in the recent post column on the main page...)

What you're driving at here is not what's in debate.

The argument is, he was justified by his FAITH, all by itself, not by the work it produced (work that it surely would, and must produce for it to be legitimate faith).

You still aren't getting this, are you? Why are you having such a hard time with this? Just take the Bible for what it plainly says. Like Abraham, we are justified (made righteous) by our faith in God's promise of a son, not by what we do. No one is justified (MADE righteous) by what they do. NO ONE!

( I should know better than to post here, since this is really just the baptism 'works' argumnt in disguise.)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

(Couldn't help seeing this post in the recent post column on the main page...)

What you're driving at here is not what's in debate.

The argument is, he was justified by his FAITH, all by itself, not by the work it produced (work that it surely would, and must produce for it to be legitimate faith).

You still aren't getting this, are you? Why are you having such a hard time with this? Just take the Bible for what it plainly says. Like Abraham, we are justified (made righteous) by our faith in God's promise of a son, not by what we do. No one is justified (MADE righteous) by what they do. NO ONE!

( I should know better than to post here, since this is really just the baptism 'works' argumnt in disguise.)

The point of this thread was to show that the work of the "worker" of Rom 4:4 refers to works of merit and not obedient works. Which means in Rom 4:5 "worketh not, but believeth" means that works of merit are excluded and NOT an obedient belief.


Therefore from verse 5 Abraham was one who did not do works of merit to earn salvation but he was one that had an obedient belief that was accounted as righteousness.

So the question I asked has everything to do with this thread so I will ask you:

Did Abraham's belief include obedient works? (A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Did Abraham's belief include obedient works? (A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.)

'Yes'

and...

'no'

(You'll have to provide a more clear context for the question to apply the appropriate answer.)

 

[farouk]

It's good to remember that faith is not based on human merit. Paul says to the Philippians in chapter 2: 'It is God that worketh in you both to do and to will of His good pleasure'.

 

[Deborah13]

I use a KJV and I cannot find the phrase "faith apart from works" in it. So I am not exactly sure what verse you are getting this phrase from so it can be determined what type of work(s) are under consideration in that verse. You claim it refers to obedient works.


From Rom 4:4;5 we know:

The worker of v4 is one who thinks he can keep God's law perfectly thereby his reward is of debt and not of grace, so the worker is trying to earn his salvation.


In verse 5 "he that worketh not, but believeth" is one who does not try to earn salvation by keeping God's law perfectly but believes in God.


Abraham was one who "worketh not, but believeth".

Abraham was one who "worketh not" but we know that Abraham had an obedient belief, Gen 12:1-3 cf Heb 11:8. Therefore "worketh not" does not exclude obedience to God as Abraham had, it only excludes works done to try and earn salvation. Abraham was one who "believeth" and he had an obedient belief.


Furthermore, from Jn 6:27-29 Jesus calls belief a work.


Paul said "he that worketh not, but believeth". Since we know from Jn 6:27-29 that belief is a work, then "worketh not" does not exlcude the obedient work of believing else Paul is creating a contradiction in this statement by essentially saying "he that worketh not, but does the work of believing".


So "workth not" in verse 5 does not exclude ALL types of works such as obedience as the faith only crowd would have me erroneously believe.

The Law of Moses had nothing to do with Abe or us, I think we are on the same page there.

I refer to Abe's work as 'works of faith'.

I believe that under that rock by the lake there is a gold coin. My father told me this and my father never ever lies to me. So my faith lies in his word. My faith says it's true. If I really have faith in what I say I do I will go look under the rock and retrieve the coin. This is a work of faith. I was motivated by faith.

 

[Deborah13]

Well call me a heretic, Ernie.

I am saved by grace and grace alone.

ALL my sin, past, present, and future sin, was covered by the blood of my Saviour at the cross. It was a finished work. He died and arose once and only once.

The works I now do are works of faith, believing in the promise of God. My righteousness is Jesus' righteousness. His spirit living in me one with my spirit. My spirit is a new creature a creature that is righteous by faith. I am not a sinner, I am a saint.
Repentence is a changing of my mind not asking for forgiveness. I could ask for forgiveness all the day all but that is not repentence. If God says go right and I think I should go left (that's what I really want to do) and I obey and go right I've done a good thing but I am not repented. I still think I'm right. And I'm not operating in faith either.
People ask for forgiveness all the time but they are not repent all the time.

My salvation is not based on my doing anything it's ALL based on what HE did for me. I am left with nothing to boast about. I am humbled to tears every time I think about God's amazing grace and love for me. It's supernatural.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

'Yes'

and...

'no'

(You'll have to provide a more clear context for the question to apply the appropriate answer.)

It's a simple question. Either Abrahams' belief was an obedient belief, it had works or he had a belief alone which is void of obedient works.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It's good to remember that faith is not based on human merit. Paul says to the Philippians in chapter 2: 'It is God that worketh in you both to do and to will of His good pleasure'.

Were the Philippians obedient or disobedient to God?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The Law of Moses had nothing to do with Abe or us, I think we are on the same page there.

I refer to Abe's work as 'works of faith'.

I believe that under that rock by the lake there is a gold coin. My father told me this and my father never ever lies to me. So my faith lies in his word. My faith says it's true. If I really have faith in what I say I do I will go look under the rock and retrieve the coin. This is a work of faith. I was motivated by faith.

I never said the law of Moses has anything to do with us. The issue is what type of belief did Abraham have. Paul said Abraham was one who "worketh not, but believeth". Was Abrahams' belief void of obedient works or did he have an obedient belief?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well call me a heretic, Ernie.

I am saved by grace and grace alone.

ALL my sin, past, present, and future sin, was covered by the blood of my Saviour at the cross. It was a finished work. He died and arose once and only once.

The works I now do are works of faith, believing in the promise of God. My righteousness is Jesus' righteousness. His spirit living in me one with my spirit. My spirit is a new creature a creature that is righteous by faith. I am not a sinner, I am a saint.
Repentence is a changing of my mind not asking for forgiveness. I could ask for forgiveness all the day all but that is not repentence. If God says go right and I think I should go left (that's what I really want to do) and I obey and go right I've done a good thing but I am not repented. I still think I'm right. And I'm not operating in faith either.
People ask for forgiveness all the time but they are not repent all the time.

My salvation is not based on my doing anything it's ALL based on what HE did for me. I am left with nothing to boast about. I am humbled to tears every time I think about God's amazing grace and love for me. It's supernatural.

If grace alone saves then all men would be saved for God saving grace has appeared unto all men, Titus 2:11. But all men will not be saved, Mt 7:13. And all men will not be saved for all men will not obey in order to receive God's conditional grace. So grace only is a dangerous doctrine that should be rejected.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's a simple question. Either Abrahams' belief was an obedient belief, it had works or he had a belief alone which is void of obedient works.

We all know Abraham was obedient. But we also know it is deceitful to limit the context of the question in the hope that it somehow proves that he was justified (MADE righteous) by what he did instead of what Paul plainly says, that he was justified (MADE righteous) by his trust in the promise of a son. We're very aware of the agenda you are pushing here, but the scriptures remain clear; Abraham was justified (MADE righteous) by his faith, not by what he did:

"We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness." (Romans 4:9 NIV1984)

See it? His FAITH was credited to him as righteousness, not his obedience.

His obedience many years later at the altar with Isaac is how we know he had the faith that justifies (makes a person righteous). His obedience at the altar did not make him righteous. It showed him to be righteous by his faith in God's promise of a son. James' argument is, if you can't show your faith by what you do, you prolly don't have the faith that justifies (MAKES a person righteous). This in no way means obedience makes a person righteous. As I've shown you, if that's what he was saying, he would be saying that works of the law are how a person is made righteous. As it is, James is saying works of the law (obedience) is how we are shown to be righteous before God by faith in the promise of a Son.

It's not right to turn the gospel of righteousness through faith apart from works into a gospel of righteousness given in exchange for successful completion of works. That is nothing more than the Judaizers argument of the first century. Pure blasphemy.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

We all know Abraham was obedient. But we also know it is deceitful to limit the context of the question in the hope that it somehow proves that he was justified (MADE righteous) by what he did instead of what Paul plainly says, that he was justified (MADE righteous) by his trust in the promise of a son. We're very aware of the agenda you are pushing here, but the scriptures remain clear; Abraham was justified (MADE righteous) by his faith, not by what he did:

"We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness." (Romans 4:9 NIV1984)

See it? His FAITH was credited to him as righteousness, not his obedience.

His obedience many years later at the altar with Isaac is how we know he had the faith that justifies (makes a person righteous). His obedience at the altar did not make him righteous. It showed him to be righteous by his faith in God's promise of a son. James' argument is, if you can't show your faith by what you do, you prolly don't have the faith that justifies (MAKES a person righteous). This in no way means obedience makes a person righteous. As I've shown you, if that's what he was saying, he would be saying that works of the law are how a person is made righteous. As it is, James is saying works of the law (obedience) is how we are shown to be righteous before God by faith in the promise of a Son.

It's not right to turn the gospel of righteousness through faith apart from works into a gospel of righteousness given in exchange for successful completion of works. That is nothing more than the Judaizers argument of the first century. Pure blasphemy.

Paul was quoting Gen 15:6 that says "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Gen 15:6 does NOT say Abraham had belief only in the Lord. Abraham's belief here in Gen 15:6 included all the past obedient acts from Gen 12:1,2 where he left his home, land and kindred through Gen 13 and 14 where it is said Abraham on two or three occasions built altars to worship God.

Coffman sums up Abraham's obedience prior to Gen 15:6: Abraham had exhibited an obedient faith in all that God said: (1) God called Abram to leave Ur of the Chaldees (Genesis 12:1-3); Abram believed and obeyed, not even knowing whither he went (Hebrews 11:8). (2) When Abram reached Shechem in the land of Canaan, he built an altar and worshiped God (Gen. 12-6,7). (3) Abraham built an altar unto Jehovah and called upon God's name on a mountain between Bethel and Ai (Genesis 12:8). (4) After his journey to Egypt, he returned to that same altar and worshiped God (Genesis 13:3,4). (5) In the encounter with Melchizedek, Abraham appears as a devout and faithful worshiper of God (Genesis 14:14-24). All of these events, and others, show that Abraham's faith was an obedient faith, which is the only kind of faith that can lead to any kind of justification.


To try and make Gen 15:6 say "belief only in the Lord" is denying, dismissing all the previous acts of obedience done by Abraham. Abraham already had an obedient belief prior to Gen 15:6.

James in James 2:23 is the same quote Paul used in Rom 4:5.

James 2:21-24 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

James clearly attaches work to Abraham's belief.

"James here quoted exactly the same passage that Paul quoted in Romans 4:3, proving that his teaching concerned exactly the same kind of justification as that in view by Paul; it does, however, explode any possibility of "faith only" having been the grounds of that justification, even in the teachings of Paul." Coffman Commentary.

There is no evidence that prior to Gen 15:6 that Abraham was a lost, condemned, unforgiven sinner. Prior to Gen 15:6 Abraham was already in a saved relationship with God due to his obedient faith in doing God's will.


Which leads to Rom 4:5 that excludes works of merit but not obedience.



Just staying in the book of Romans:

Rom 2:5 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; "

ONe must repent to be saved for the impenintent will be lost.

Rom 2:6-8 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,"

Man will be judged according to his deeds/works whether he obeys the truth or obeys unrighteousness.

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

You either serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.


Rom 6:17,18 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

It takes obeying form the heart to then be freed from sins/justified.

Rom 8:1 "[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. "

It takes obedience to be in Christ and the obedience in walking after the spirit.

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. "

It takes oabeying/submitting unto the righteousness of God for those lost Jews to be saved.

Rom 10:9,10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

It takes obedient works of believing and confessing with the mout UNTO salvation.

Rom 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Calling upon the name of the Lord means DOING/OBEYING what the Lord has said cf Lk 6:46.


To try and remove obedience from 'believeth" in Rom 4:5 contradicts a host of verses where Paul put obedience BEFORE savlation, obedience UNTO salvation, that God renders according to a mans DEEDS whether he obeyed the truth or obeyed unrighteousness. Paul did not contradict himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How is it that you can't tell the difference between trusting in a promise and doing something?

Why is it so hard to understand that trust is seen in what it does, the 'what it does' not being the trusting itself? Why is this hard for you?


Justification is made when a person trusts in the forgiveness of sins through the Son he promised, Jesus Christ. That is the only way a person can be made righteous. They must have their unrighteousness removed. It doesn't get removed by doing things. It gets removed by being forgiven. Do you understand this? It's pure blasphemy to think you can become righteous by doing things. The only way to become righteous is to be made righteous by God through the forgiveness and removal of your unrighteousness. That is the 'good news'. Telling people they are made righteous by doing things is NOT good news. That's just the righteousness of 'law' (any law) all over again. That couldn't save a flea.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul was quoting Gen 15:6 that says "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Gen 15:6 does NOT say Abraham had belief only in the Lord. Abraham's belief here in Gen 15:6 included all the past obedient acts from Gen 12:1,2 where he left his home, land and kindred through Gen 13 and 14 where it is said Abraham on two or three occasions built altars to worship God.

Coffman sums up Abraham's obedience prior to Gen 15:6: Abraham had exhibited an obedient faith in all that God said: (1) God called Abram to leave Ur of the Chaldees (Genesis 12:1-3); Abram believed and obeyed, not even knowing whither he went (Hebrews 11:8). (2) When Abram reached Shechem in the land of Canaan, he built an altar and worshiped God (Gen. 12-6,7). (3) Abraham built an altar unto Jehovah and called upon God's name on a mountain between Bethel and Ai (Genesis 12:8). (4) After his journey to Egypt, he returned to that same altar and worshiped God (Genesis 13:3,4). (5) In the encounter with Melchizedek, Abraham appears as a devout and faithful worshiper of God (Genesis 14:14-24). All of these events, and others, show that Abraham's faith was an obedient faith, which is the only kind of faith that can lead to any kind of justification.


To try and make Gen 15:6 say "belief only in the Lord" is denying, dismissing all the previous acts of obedience done by Abraham. Abraham already had an obedient belief prior to Gen 15:6.

James in James 2:23 is the same quote Paul used in Rom 4:5.

James 2:21-24 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

James clearly attaches work to Abraham's belief.

"James here quoted exactly the same passage that Paul quoted in Romans 4:3, proving that his teaching concerned exactly the same kind of justification as that in view by Paul; it does, however, explode any possibility of "faith only" having been the grounds of that justification, even in the teachings of Paul." Coffman Commentary.

There is no evidence that prior to Gen 15:6 that Abraham was a lost, condemned, unforgiven sinner. Prior to Gen 15:6 Abraham was already in a saved relationship with God due to his obedient faith in doing God's will.


Which leads to Rom 4:5 that excludes works of merit but not obedience.



Just staying in the book of Romans:

Rom 2:5 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; "

ONe must repent to be saved for the impenintent will be lost.

Rom 2:6-8 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,"

Man will be judged according to his deeds/works whether he obeys the truth or obeys unrighteousness.

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

You either serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.


Rom 6:17,18 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

It takes obeying form the heart to then be freed from sins/justified.

Rom 8:1 "[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. "

It takes obedience to be in Christ and the obedience in walking after the spirit.

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. "

It takes oabeying/submitting unto the righteousness of God for those lost Jews to be saved.

Rom 10:9,10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

It takes obedient works of believing and confessing with the mout UNTO salvation.

Rom 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Calling upon the name of the Lord means DOING/OBEYING what the Lord has said cf Lk 6:46.


To try and remove obedience from 'believeth" in Rom 4:5 contradicts a host of verses where Paul put obedience BEFORE savlation, obedience UNTO salvation, that God renders according to a mans DEEDS whether he obeyed the truth or obeyed unrighteousness. Paul did not contradict himself.

Genuine faith in the forgiveness of God has a predictable, and expected, even obligatory outcome. We all know that. That doesn't mean the expected and obligatory outcome of faith is what does the justifying! That is where you are going so terribly wrong and sharing a gospel that is really no gospel at all!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

How is it that you can't tell the difference between trusting in a promise and doing something?

Why is it so hard to understand that trust is seen in what it does, the 'what it does' not being the trusting itself? Why is this hard for you?

Because Gen 15:6; Rom 4:5 or James 2:23 does NOT say Abraham "believed only". If Abraham did not have an obedient belief in Genesis chapters 12-14 then Gen 15 would never have happened. When Gen 15:6 says Abraham believed how or why does that omit all the obedience Abrahams' belief contained prior to that?

Justification is made when a person trusts in the forgiveness of sins through the Son he promised, Jesus Christ. That is the only way a person can be made righteous. They must have their unrighteousness removed. It doesn't get removed by doing things. It gets removed by being forgiven. Do you understand this? It's pure blasphemy to think you can become righteous by doing things. The only way to become righteous is to be made righteous by God through the forgiveness and removal of your unrighteousness. That is the 'good news'. Telling people they are made righteous by doing things is NOT good news. That's just the righteousness of 'law' (any law) all over again. That couldn't save a flea.

1 Jn 3:7, Acts 10:35, Rom 10:3 shows the only way to be made righteous is by doing righteousness.

From Rom 2:6-9 one is either doing one of two things, obeying the truth or obeying unrighteousness, From Rom 6:16 one is serving either one of two things; obeying sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. One will not be saved while they remain in a state of obeying unrighteousness, obeying sin unto death. The only cure for an unrighteous state is doing righteousness. No verse say God will save anyone while they are obeying unrighteousness/serving sin.


You post "The only way to become righteous is to be made righteous by God through the forgiveness and removal of your unrighteousness. That is the 'good news'."

There is not a single verse that says sins are forgiven by a simple belief only. It takes obedience repentace, confession and baptism to have sisn remitted.

The "good news" is the gospel and I have started a thread on the fact the gospel/the truth/the word of God is to be obeyed and not obeying the gospel leaves one lost. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=44974

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Genuine faith in the forgiveness of God has a predictable, and expected, even obligatory outcome. We all know that. That doesn't mean the expected and obligatory outcome of faith is what does the justifying! That is where you are going so terribly wrong and sharing a gospel that is really no gospel at all!

"by works a man is justified and not by faith only", James 2:24


Where is the verse that says "by belief only a man is justified"?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"by works a man is justified and not by faith only", James 2:24


Where is the verse that says "by belief only a man is justified"?

So, are you simply refusing to understand that 'justify' means to be, both, made righteous, and shown to be righteous?

The context of James' letter shows us that he is talking about being justified in regard to being 'shown' to be righteous (one meaning of 'justify'), while the context of Paul's letter shows us that he is talking about being justified in regard to being 'made' righteous (another meaning of 'justify').

Have you decided to reject the fact that 'justify' has more than one meaning, and that the context where it is used defends that fact?

Paul says we are made righteous by our faith in God's forgiveness, apart from obedience to the law, any law. James says we are shown to be righteous by our obedience to the law, namely, 'love your neighbor as yourself'. This plainly proves that they are hardly talking about the same definition of 'justify'...unless of course you're prepared to say there is a glaring contradiction in our Bibles. Are you prepared to do that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1 Jn 3:7, Acts 10:35, Rom 10:3 shows the only way to be made righteous is by doing righteousness.

From Rom 2:6-9 one is either doing one of two things, obeying the truth or obeying unrighteousness, From Rom 6:16 one is serving either one of two things; obeying sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. One will not be saved while they remain in a state of obeying unrighteousness, obeying sin unto death. The only cure for an unrighteous state is doing righteousness. No verse say God will save anyone while they are obeying unrighteousness/serving sin.


You post "The only way to become righteous is to be made righteous by God through the forgiveness and removal of your unrighteousness. That is the 'good news'."

There is not a single verse that says sins are forgiven by a simple belief only. It takes obedience repentace, confession and baptism to have sisn remitted.

You're describing the outcome of faith. The outcome is not what justifies. The faith that motivates the outcome does the justifying all by itself, apart from, and without the help of works.

James' rightly argues that to not have the expected outcome of faith (namely, 'love your neighbor as yourself'--a work of the law) you may not have the faith that justifies (all by itself without the help of works) and can not be saved by that faith. Don't confuse that to mean we are literally made righteous (justified) by the things that faith produces. That is the mistake you are making.

The only cure for an unrighteous state is doing righteousness.

Pure, unadulterated blasphemy.


You're not that good. I'm not that good. No one is that good.

...and the cost of unrighteousness is a lot higher than just doing right things. Just ask Jesus.

 

[rrowell]

You're describing the outcome of faith. The outcome is not what justifies. The faith that motivates the outcome does the justifying all by itself, apart from, and without the help of works.

That's only if you discount "faith" as a work,

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So if faith cometh by "hearing" then you must do something to have "faith" therefore "faith" is a work.