The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[rrowell]

Originally Posted by Ernest T. Bass
The only cure for an unrighteous state is doing righteousness.

Pure, unadulterated blasphemy.


You're not that good. I'm not that good. No one is that good.

...and the cost of unrighteousness is a lot higher than just doing right things. Just ask Jesus.

Jesus says it can be obtained.

Matthew 5:6 (KJV)
6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's only if you discount "faith" as a work,

How is it that Paul could possibly be saying the very faith he says justifies a person is included in the works that don't justify a person? That goes without saying.

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So if faith cometh by "hearing" then you must do something to have "faith" therefore "faith" is a work.

How does this change the fact that it is the faith itself, all by itself, apart from (other) works, that does the justifying (makes one righteous)?

Paul's teaching is clear and plain. It is faith in Christ's blood that does the justifying, all by itself. And James and Paul both say that if you really have this justifying faith we'll be able to see it in the upholding of the law; specifically, 'love your neighbor as yourself'. James says if you can't see that work of the law in your life then you have a faith (note, he didn't say 'works') that can not save you.

That is what we need to be telling people who think you can have no works of faith and still be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus says it can be obtained.

Matthew 5:6 (KJV)
6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

The question is not if righteousness can be obtained. The question is, are we made righteous by what we do, or by what we believe about the forgiveness of God in Christ, all by itself, apart from works? Paul is very clear that it is our faith, not what we do that makes us righteous before God. And Paul and James both teach that we can tell who has that righteousness by whether or not they keep the law or not. Specifically, the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

 

[rrowell]

How does this change the fact that it is the faith itself, all by itself, apart from (other) works, that does the justifying (makes one righteous)?

it is not possible to have/get faith without works, it takes works (hearing Rom. 10:17) get faith and faith itself is a work, their is only one place in the whole new testament that says anything about "faith alone" and it says "faith alone" is dead without works.

James 2:17 (KJV)
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[rrowell]

The question is not if righteousness can be obtained.

Yes it is, this is what you said in response to Ernest T. Bass's Quote of which I re-quoted as well :

Originally Posted by Ernest T. Bass
The only cure for an unrighteous state is doing righteousness.

Pure, unadulterated blasphemy.


You're not that good. I'm not that good. No one is that good.

...and the cost of unrighteousness is a lot higher than just doing right things. Just ask Jesus.

You said not only is anybody good enough to obtain it, but that it was "Pure, unadulterated blasphemy." and "Just ask Jesus", so I did and he said it is obtainable.


Matthew 5:6 (KJV)
6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

it is not possible to have/get faith without works, it takes works (hearing Rom. 10:17) get faith and faith itself is a work,

You can line up as many absurd definitions of 'works' you want. The only 'work' that justifies (makes a person righteous before God) is believing (trusting) in the blood of Christ. Everything else that a man can 'do' to be made righteous before God is contrasted with faith in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins because only forgiveness can remove unrighteousness.

To think there is something you can do outside of faith in Christ's blood to be made righteous before God is the very definition of the damnable works gospel--a false, powerless gospel where righteousness is granted on the basis of your acceptable work instead of solely on the power of God's forgiveness to remove unrighteousness.

...their is only one place in the whole new testament that says anything about "faith alone" and it says "faith alone" is dead without works.

You are so very wrong. Paul speaks of the righteousness of faith "apart from works" (Romans 4:6).

And it is you and others who confuse Paul's 'apart from works' teaching with James' 'faith alone' argument as if they were one and the same. Since they are hardly the same argument you can't use the conclusion of James' argument about justification to explain Paul's argument about justification. That's why you and others can't get it. You can't understand the difference between James' 'faith alone' argument and Paul's 'righteousness apart from works' argument. They are hardly the same, but over and over people come into forums using James 2 to refute an argument that is not even being made in Romans 3 and 4. Amazing.


Paul says a man is NOT justified by works of the law. James says a man IS justified by works of the law (specifically, 'love your neighbor as yourself'). How do you explain this since you think you can use James' teaching about justification to discern and understand Paul's teaching about justification?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes it is, this is what you said in response to Ernest T. Bass's Quote of which I re-quoted as well :


You said not only is anybody good enough to obtain it, but that it was "Pure, unadulterated blasphemy." and "Just ask Jesus", so I did and he said it is obtainable.


Matthew 5:6 (KJV)
6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

The question is not if righteousness is obtainable. The question is,"can the way of human effort and merit obtain it?" Paul says, 'no'. (And just so you understand, James says we can tell who has obtained it by if they uphold the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. A different argument about justification than what Paul is making.)

How does Matthew 5 prove that the work faith produces, and not the faith itself (all by itself), makes a person righteous?

 

[heymikey80]

Rom 4"5 "worketh not, but believeth"

Abraham was one who worketh not but believeth"

Did Abraham's belief include obedient works? (A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.)

No. Abraham's belief never included works. That's what Paul's statement flatly says.

To Abraham's belief he added works, which were irrelevant to his being saved once faith was present, and which would've condemned Abraham were faith not present.

Once faith arrives, works aren't relevant to salvation. Without faith the only alternative is perfect works.

 

[rrowell]

The question is not if righteousness is obtainable. The question is,"can the way of human effort and merit obtain it?" Paul says, 'no'. (And just so you understand, James says we can tell who has obtained it by if they uphold the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. A different argument about justification than what Paul is making.)

How does Matthew 5 prove that the work faith produces, and not the faith itself (all by itself), makes a person righteous?

James 2:14 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

It doesn't get much more clear than this?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James 2:14 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

It doesn't get much more clear than this?

How does this prove that the works of faith do the actual justifying?
It says the faith that saves is the faith that has works attached to it. Where do you get that the works themselves are the source of righteousness out of this?

Paul's 'righteousness by faith in the blood of Christ to remove unrighteousness apart from works' says the faith all by itself justifies a person. In the verse you quote James is teaching us what Paul also says...that the faith that saves upholds the law, and if your 'faith' doesn't do that (uphold the law) then you have a 'faith' that can not save you (note James did not say you have 'works' that can not save you).

 

[Drew]

I believe that Romans 4:4-5 does not deny what Paul otherwise affirms in Romans 2 - that people are ultimately justified by their "good works".

Instead, the "worker" in Romans 4 is a metaphor. I am prepared to defend the following position: In Romans 4:4-5, Paul is not denying justification by good works, he is critiquing the specifically Jewish belief that God "owes" justification to the Jews simply because of their being born into a community that performs the works of the Law of Moses.

 

[rrowell]

How does this prove that the works of faith do the actual justifying?
It says the faith that saves is the faith that has works attached to it. Where do you get that the works themselves are the source of righteousness out of this?

Paul's 'righteousness by faith in the blood of Christ to remove unrighteousness apart from works' says the faith all by itself justifies a person. In the verse you quote James is teaching us what Paul also says...that the faith that saves upholds the law, and if your 'faith' doesn't do that (uphold the law) then you have a 'faith' that can not save you (note James did not say you have 'works' that can not save you).

Are you implying that a man that is not righteous can be saved?

One must be "righteous" to be saved, so "faith" must not be the only factor to make one "righteous" because James said "faith alone" will not save you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe that Romans 4:4-5 does not deny what Paul otherwise affirms in Romans 2 - that people are ultimately justified by their "good works".

No. Don't misunderstand. Paul is saying that you can only be declared righteous by the law if you can keep the law--all of it. Something he uses scripture itself to show no one can do. So even though it's true that you can be declared righteous by the law, it's a moot point. No one can keep the law. He's not teaching us that ultimately a person is made righteous (justified) by the law.

This is the necessary foundation to understand and accept his 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' teaching (Romans 4:6). It's impossible for a person to receive something they are convinced they don't need. In this case, those who are confident of the righteousness of their own righteous work to obtain a declaration of righteousness will not, and can not, place their trust in God's free gift of righteousness. It's a free gift because it's not given in exchange for successful performance of righteous behavior, but is a righteousness given 'apart from' the condition of performing righteous work. It's a righteousness given when one accepts, by faith, God's forgiveness for having broken the law--their unrighteousness being removed through that forgiveness. Even the faith to receive that forgiveness is itself a free gift offered without the condition of meritorious work.

James then teaches us that it is the person who upholds the law who shows they have this righteousness by faith (the faith, not work, that saves), their work being the evidence of that righteousness, not the procurer of it. And that is where 'works gospel' teaching goes wrong. They somehow use James 2 to argue that a man is made righteous by what he does. If that really is what James is arguing then, from the context of the law he is speaking in, we have no choice but to say he is saying a person IS declared righteous by works of the law in exact contradiction to what Paul teaches in the same Bible. That makes for a very serious contradiction in our Bibles. Are works gospel proponents really ready to go on record as supporting that? I doubt it.

Instead, the "worker" in Romans 4 is a metaphor. I am prepared to defend the following position: In Romans 4:4-5, Paul is not denying justification by good works, he is critiquing the specifically Jewish belief that God "owes" justification to the Jews simply because of their being born into a community that performs the works of the Law of Moses.

We know this matter of the Jews placing misguided trust in their Jewishness is true. But the truth of 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' is applicable to all people who think they are ultimately declared righteous (made righteous in the sight of God) by the performance of righteous work.

The message is clear. Salvation is by the unmerited favor (grace) of God given to us through the giving of the faith to place our trust in the forgiveness of Christ for the removal of unrigheousness. Unrigheousness can not be removed by righteous work. That is impossible for a mortal man to do. The standard that must be kept to do that is the law (assuming they haven't already committed an unforgivable offense), and as Paul says NO ONE has, or can, keep the whole law. That's why salvation must be by the grace of forgiveness, not by the merit of doing righteous things--any righteous thing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you implying that a man that is not righteous can be saved?

I'm not just implying it. I'm saying it!

That's what the free gift of salvation is all about. If I understand your point correctly, the gospel is all about people who are not righteous, and can not make themselves righteous (and are therefore condemned), being made righteous through the forgiveness and removal of unrighteousness, and being given right standing with God through the giving of the Holy Spirit. That is what the gospel is ALL about.

"...I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”" (Matthew 9:13 NIV1984)

But if a person who says they have 'faith' continues in willful unrighteousness , they are showing that they did not really receive the righteousness of God at all. They are unable to justify themselves (as in show themselves righteous--another meaning of 'justify') by what they do. This is NOT the same as being justified (made righteous) by faith in Christ's blood. And this is what the works gospel argument can not understand and which erroneously comes to the conclusion that salvation is by works.

One must be "righteous" to be saved, so "faith" must not be the only factor to make one "righteous" because James said "faith alone" will not save you.

Faith justifies (makes righteous) all by itself 'apart from works' (Romans 4:6). But even Paul himself says (just as James says), that the righteousness that comes through faith in God's forgiveness "upholds the law" (Romans 3:31). So the faith that saves all by itself apart from works will not be alone. But that hardly means the works themselves do the justifying! But that is the erroneous and short sided conclusion the works gospel argument comes to. Anybody who is keenly aware that they have been saved by the grace of God's forgiveness knows this very well! Just as the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14 knows this very well.

So don't continue to misunderstand. Faith all by itself, apart from works, is how a man is made righteous in the sight of God. But people who have this free gift of righteousness will then grow up into righteous work. But, as James says, a person who can't 'show their faith by what they do' (James 2:18) has a faith (he didn't say 'work') that can not save them. IOW, they don't have the righteousness of faith 'apart from work' that can save them. That doesn't mean the work itself saves them. It means you don't have the righteousness of God, given to a person through faith in Christ's blood apart from work, to now be able to do righteous things.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So, are you simply refusing to understand that 'justify' means to be, both, made righteous, and shown to be righteous?

The context of James' letter shows us that he is talking about being justified in regard to being 'shown' to be righteous (one meaning of 'justify'), while the context of Paul's letter shows us that he is talking about being justified in regard to being 'made' righteous (another meaning of 'justify').

Have you decided to reject the fact that 'justify' has more than one meaning, and that the context where it is used defends that fact?

Paul says we are made righteous by our faith in God's forgiveness, apart from obedience to the law, any law. James says we are shown to be righteous by our obedience to the law, namely, 'love your neighbor as yourself'. This plainly proves that they are hardly talking about the same definition of 'justify'...unless of course you're prepared to say there is a glaring contradiction in our Bibles. Are you prepared to do that?

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

James does not say Abraham was shown to be justifed by his works. And Abraham could not have been justified by faith only for James says "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." So works are the means by which a man is justified.

Rom 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Paul never says one is made a sinner or made righteous by some unconditional predetermination of God but men are made sinners for they have chosen of thier own will to sin, Rom 5:12 and made righteous for they have chosen of their own will to do righteousness by having faith, Rom 5:1,2

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No. Abraham's belief never included works. That's what Paul's statement flatly says.

To Abraham's belief he added works, which were irrelevant to his being saved once faith was present, and which would've condemned Abraham were faith not present.

Once faith arrives, works aren't relevant to salvation. Without faith the only alternative is perfect works.

Heb 11:8,17 show that Abrahams faith included works. James 2:21 says Abraham was justifed by works.


Gen 12:1,2,3,4 when God first approached Abram and told him to leave his land, home and kindred to go to a country God would show him, you are saying it is irrelevant if Abram left or not. Well it was not irrelevant for if he did not leave as God said then those promises would not have been fulfilled that were made about Abraham and Abraham would have been lost being in disobedience to God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Originally Posted by Ernest T. Bass
The only cure for an unrighteous state is doing righteousness.

Pure, unadulterated blasphemy.


You're not that good. I'm not that good. No one is that good.

...and the cost of unrighteousness is a lot higher than just doing right things. Just ask Jesus.

Please show the verse that says doing nothing or doing unrighteousness makes one righteous.

 

[Drew]

No. Don't misunderstand. Paul is saying that you can only be declared righteous by the law if you can keep the law--all of it. Something he uses scripture itself to show no one can do. So even though it's true that you can be declared righteous by the law, it's a moot point. No one can keep the law. He's not teaching us that ultimately a person is made righteous (justified) by the law.

I believe I never suggested that Paul is saying one can be justified by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

I am saying that what Paul says here in Romans 4 does not contradict what he clearly asserts in Romans 2 - "good works" (not the same thing as the Law of Moses!) are indeed the basis for final salvation. Paul is really quite clear about this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Paul means what he says, and I have read a coherent explanation of how to reconcile this text with the notion that good works are not needed for salvation.

 

[Drew]

You are so very wrong. Paul speaks of the righteousness of faith "apart from works" (Romans 4:6).

The problem with this is that a powerful case can be mounted that Paul is specifically referring to the works of the Law of Moses here, not to the more general category of good works. Here, in summary form is the shape of what I believe to be the correct position on this:

1. Paul is critiquing the Jewish believe that justification is limted to Jews;

2. What is the distinguishing feature of a Jew? Answer: Doing the works of the Law of Moses. Not good works in the general sense, but the very specific prescriptions of the Law of Moses;

3. Therefore, since Paul wants to say that the possibility of salvation is also available to Gentiles, one way to effectively achieve this is to deny "salvation by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

One of the big problems we have is this: Those who think that Paul is denying justification by good works mistakenly project a 17th century question - "Do good works count for salvation?" - onto a 1st century writer (Paul). That's bad methodology. I am prepared to argue that if we let Paul define the question, it will be clear that his concern is a Jewish belief that salvation is for Jews only, not a question about "good works" and their relation to final salvation.

And I will keep reminding readers that Paul wrote this in Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

What do you think Paul is saying here? It sure seems like he is saying that eternal life is granted based on, yes, persistence in doing good.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes it is, this is what you said in response to Ernest T. Bass's Quote of which I re-quoted as well :


You said not only is anybody good enough to obtain it, but that it was "Pure, unadulterated blasphemy." and "Just ask Jesus", so I did and he said it is obtainable.


Matthew 5:6 (KJV)
6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Of coarse it's obtainable. We are "being MADE the righteousness of God" 2Cor 5:21 We however are not righteous within ourselves, it is only Christ living in us.
Through His righteousness we are MADE righteous. We have no place to boast or to judge others and their "works". "By grace ye are saved, through faith and that NOT of YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT of God."
A gift is a gift. It cannot be earned.